Is this something that many White people think about? Whether they will be called into question because their family members once owned slaves or were involved in something racially horrible? Is this something that many Black people regularly think about with the White people you meet and know?
I ask because I was trying to figure out why Affleck thought this was something he needed to smooth over. Speaking only for myself, I operate under the assumption that all White people I've come upon have at least some racial shadiness in their family tree, just like I assume all the people I meet here in Deutschland have some Nazi-dealings of some sort. I generally don't think about that at all though when assessing someone's character unless you start glossing over and making excuses for what those people did because they are your kin, or doing the whole "I'm colorblind" thing. THEN I may bring up your family.
TBH, this white person whose family line runs straight to the Mayflower is completely confused as to why BA felt compelled to paper over this part of his past. I don't assume at all that anyone judges me for the sins of family members long dead; frankly, if they do, I don't care because there's not a damn thing I can do about it.
I've always just assumed I had shady ancestors. I mean that was how life was, shady. Human history is riddled with stories of awful shit. So your great great granddaddy didn't have a plantation. But if you're southern there's a good chance someone on your tree had a picnic at a lynching.
If you're not southern, there's still a good chance your ancestors were involved in some level of anti something shenanigans. Anti woman, anti black, anti-immigrant, some bullshit back in the home country, etc.
History is messy, messy business and there are few populations that can claim they were on the right side of it. So I'm not sure why people, particular white folks feel some kind of way.
I think about the possibilities, but in a "huh, I bet xyz happened" way. It's not something I'd hide.
Then again, I know my great grandfather (who I never met, but my dad did as a kid and hated him) was in the KKK and have already thought that through. Btw, I don't know if he was born here, but his parents were Welsh immigrants who didn't arrive to the northern US (Pennsylvania) until the 1870s or 1880s so the whole not the south not until after the civil war thing clearly irrelevant to whether you were a disgusting violent shitpig wrt race.
Without being trite, I like to reflect on that part of my family's past as a marking point for progress. He did that THEN, what can I do NOW that's the opposite.
Post by secretlyevil on Apr 19, 2015 8:04:33 GMT -5
I don't know. I personally don't think about people's ancestors in that way. Like pp said, I, you or Joe Smoe had no control over what your ancestors do. However, you shouldn't let what your ancestors did continue to dictate your actions. An example, if your ancestors were active in the KKK that doesn't mean you need to continue the family tradition.
Post by Miss Phryne Fisher on Apr 19, 2015 8:06:53 GMT -5
Half of my family came from Norway in the 1870's and the other half from Italy in the 1940's. I am sure there are some unsavory characters in there, but it isn't something I think about a lot. I also don't judge people for what their ancestors did, that would be ridiculous.
I think about the possibilities, but in a "huh, I bet xyz happened" way. It's not something I'd hide.
Then again, I know my great grandfather (who I never met, but my dad did as a kid and hated him) was in the KKK and have already thought that through. Btw, I don't know if he was born here, but his parents were Welsh immigrants who didn't arrive to the northern US (Pennsylvania) until the 1870s or 1880s so the whole not the south not until after the civil war thing clearly irrelevant to whether you were a disgusting violent shitpig wrt race.
Without being trite, I like to reflect on that part of my family's past as a marking point for progress. He did that THEN, what can I do NOW that's the opposite.
The second movement of the KKK was in the 20s, I believe. It was huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuge and came out of Indiana I'm sure. There were chapters all over the country, particularly in PA, OH, the midwest, OK, Kansas, Missouri, Nebraska, Michigan, etc.
So white folks, you are not safe.
That being said, laurenpetro's family is Italian I'm sure and the KKK of that era was focused on immigrants, particularly Catholic ones. So she's probably safe on that count.
I think about the possibilities, but in a "huh, I bet xyz happened" way. It's not something I'd hide.
Then again, I know my great grandfather (who I never met, but my dad did as a kid and hated him) was in the KKK and have already thought that through. Btw, I don't know if he was born here, but his parents were Welsh immigrants who didn't arrive to the northern US (Pennsylvania) until the 1870s or 1880s so the whole not the south not until after the civil war thing clearly irrelevant to whether you were a disgusting violent shitpig wrt race.
Without being trite, I like to reflect on that part of my family's past as a marking point for progress. He did that THEN, what can I do NOW that's the opposite.
The second movement of the KKK was in the 20s, I believe. It was huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuge and came out of Indiana I'm sure. There were chapters all over the country, particularly in PA, OH, the midwest, OK, Kansas, Missouri, Nebraska, Michigan, etc.
So white folks, you are not safe.
That being said, laurenpetro's family is Italian I'm sure and the KKK of that era was focused on immigrants, particularly Catholic ones. So she's probably safe on that count.
Yeah. I asked my dad about if he thought my grandfather had been in (nervously, I loved my grandfather even though he was a tough old bastard). That was a resounding no. My great-grandfather was a gigantic asshole who beat his wife and children so badly that she got a divorce from him in the 1930s granted by the state legislature. So even if (is this even an if? He was born in 1915) my grandfather harbored all sorts of thoughts I'd find appalling, his goal in life was to be not like his dad.
My dad did mention that my grandfather had chuckled to himself about what HIS father would've thought about my parents' marriage. My mom is Catholic, her father Italian and her mother Irish/Norwegian. My grandfather was happy his son was so different.
I don't get why he's acting all twisted about letting this info out. It's not like he's a Klingon and the dishonor of his house is following him down through generations.
I don't get why he's acting all twisted about letting this info out. It's not like he's a Klingon and the dishonor of his house is following him down through generations.
On one side I'm sure there were slave owners. That side of the family there was lots of shady goings on, a few murderers and one of the original Texas Rangers. On the other side were Native Americans that had babies with white men so we can only assume they were enslaved at one point.
Remember that post last week about how everyone has 4,090 great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great grandparents? There was a line about how if you grandmother tells you you're descended from royalty, you probably are. Everyone is. And also rapists and thieves and murderers and actors and bankers and farmers. There are a lot of people back there.
Dude, let me hear one more person talk about when their family came over here as if that's a free pass from shenanigans.
That ain't the way history works. We don't have a pervasive systemic issues with racism all the way until today despite the massive influx of post Civil War immigrants.
I do get what you're saying that great great granddaddy couldn't have had a plantation because he got here after the Emancipation Proclamation. But you know there are a whole host of other ways our ancestors were complicit in the system. Sharecropping, day laborers, domestic servitude, indentured servitude that in effect behaved as slavery, etc.
In the 20's, 15% of the nation's population was a member of the Ku Klux Klan. And those were only the men.
Post by StrawberryBlondie on Apr 19, 2015 8:47:12 GMT -5
I'm sure there's shenanigans in my ancestral history, whether they happened in Sweden or here. I doubt slave owning was part of it. I have a great aunt that was super racist and antisemitic and i somehow doubt she got those ideas completely on her own.
I don't get why BA would feel the need to cover this up. It's not like he personally owned slaves.
I've never thought much about it, so I am surprised he wanted it left out. I doubt my family owned slaves considering they didn't arrive until the early 1900s but I'm sure they were invovled in something ugly at some point. I find it more unlikely that they were somehow way ahead of their time and didn't participate in something I would consider horrible or hold attitudes I would find abhorrent.
And I have about zero idea what they were doing in Ireland and Germany respectively before coming to the U.S. So I'd be hard pressed to say - oh they would never.
My grandmother on my mom's side was very into genealogy. She was very proud of early America in general, and our connections to it in particular. (If you'd asked her, I'm not sure she'd have thought just being related to someone famous was worth bragging about, but she felt it made it more interesting to have a connection. But then she joined the DAR, which seems to be a club to brag about your dead relatives, and also racism.) It sparked a real interest in history for me - she found 9 family members accused of witchcraft in colonial times, how cool is that?
How do I reconcile that knowledge with knowing some of them, including ones famous for advocating equality and freedom, bought and sold people? Kept them ignorant and uneducated. Sold them away from their families. Likely raped them and didn't think of it twice. Beat them, whipped them, chained them. For generations. If I'm feeling a connection to the good parts, what do I do with the bad?
Not that anyone should be shocked to be related to people who've done bad things. Or that Americans should ignore that their ancestors owned slaves. It feels gross deep inside to know you're connected to that, though. I don't know that it's bad to feel that way, in general we need to complicate our vision of America's past rather than praise the good and sweep the bad under the rug. We've inherited a tainted culture, should I be surprised to find I'm personally tainted by it?
Then there's the question of family. I've thought about this off and on for awhile but I can't ever get to any real conclusions. I get a real oogy feeling when I think about how the Jefferson family meets at Monticello every year and how for a long time they kept the Hemmings out. Those are their cousins, they should have just as much claim on their heritage as any other member of that family. So what about my cousins out there? I would not blame anyone a bit for not wanting anything to do with the however many greats-granddaughter of rapists, but if as a culture we're ever able to work toward healing the wounds of slavery, will I discover other branches to my family? Ones whose experiences are so different, but completely intertwined? I have no rights to it, but I do wonder about the connection.
Apologies for the wall of text and extreme navel gazing happening here.
Post by sugarglider on Apr 19, 2015 9:06:10 GMT -5
My cousin on my WASPy side is into genealogy and discovered we're descended from Millard Fillmore and King Edward II of England. We have several relatives who fought for the North in the Civil War but at least one who fought for the Confederacy.
At my request, she tracked down our relatives from the revolutionary war to see if we qualify for DAR. She was sure we had some here at that time but suspected most were loyalists, lol. (We do qualify, but neither of us have joined).
I think I assume I have ancestors that did shady stuff, particularly because I know some were quite wealthy. But I don't get hung up about it because Lisa Turtle told Jessie Spano not to. Yes, one of many life lessons from Saved by the Bell.
No but to be fair my family didn't come here until the 1890's so it's not something I need to think about.
They didn't do anything here, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen elsewhere (or that other horrific things didn't happen in your, generic, family's past). I get the not being a slaveowner thing, but humans have been horrific to each other since the dawn of time. My point is....we can't change the past, but we can't hide from it either.
mouse I am a member of the DAR and while the org has a racist past, the org is now very inclusive and focuses on being inviting and welcoming to anyone who can prove lineage to a patriot.
Post by Velvetshady on Apr 19, 2015 9:17:57 GMT -5
Of the family history I know of, no one owned slaves (but likely because they were too poor on some branches, not because of a moral choice). My paternal great-grandmother's family did give James James shelter, often, and one family member was in his gang at one point. So odds are they also supported the Confederacy. Most of the rest of that side didn't make it to the US until after the Civil War. And we know almost nothing about one side of my maternal grandfather's family because he refused to talk about them and would just say "some things are better not known". My grandfather was very religious, so it could be something we don't think is a big deal, but we've always assumed criminal-like past.
I hope people don't blame DH for the Salem Witch trial deaths.
Before this, I don't think I have ever heard of a white person being so ashamed of slave-owning ancestors that he hid it. if anything, IME, whites are the opposite of Ben. Whites feel no need to apologize bc "that was them back then, not us. I don't have any control over what my people did back then. That's their bad." Plus, whites IME tend to want an ancestor who did something worth talking about, good or bad. So Ben's reaction is bizarre IMO.
My Dad's people came over to SC pre-revolution and have remained in the South since then even without the documentation I have no doubts they did some extremely bad stuff it sucks but whitewashing it helps no one.
I know nothing of my family past 3 generations back. What I do know is that in my family tree there are some amazing people and some people who are shady as fuck. I presume that trend continues throughout time.
I do wonder what people will look back and judge our generation for. I assume same sex marriage will be a dividing line in history, but I wonder what else.
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My grandmother was big into genealogy. She found out her great (a few times over) uncle was Jefferson Davis. I do not go around apologizing for the fact that my ancestor was the President of the Confederate States.
Post by iammalcolmx on Apr 19, 2015 9:55:56 GMT -5
Ok so out of me and the white dude upstairs who pays my bills, I am the only one related to a slave holder. His peeps were Ottomans causing other issues in the world. His Norwegian peeps didn't get to the US until very recently.
Post by thejackpot on Apr 19, 2015 10:05:12 GMT -5
it seems like such a bizarre thing to try to conceal. It makes me wonder a bit about Ben. I wouldn't judge a person by the antics of their ancestors. That seems crazy.