88K+ Applicants For 55 Units In "Poor Door" Building

[orangeblossom]

www.nytimes.com/2015/04/21/nyregion/poor-door-building-draws-88000-applicants-for-55-rental-units.html


A glassy new tower in New York City attracted an outcry for featuring one entrance for condominium owners and another for low-income tenants.



But having to walk through a so-called poor door has not deterred those seeking an affordable place to live. As of Monday, the deadline for applying, more than 88,000 people had put their name in for the 55 low-priced units, the developer said.



“I guess people like it,” said Gary Barnett, founder and president of Extell Development Company, the tower’s developer. “It shows that there’s a tremendous demand for high-quality affordable housing in beautiful neighborhoods.”



The separate entrances at the building, on the Upper West Side of Manhattan, drew heavy criticism last year from some officials and affordable-housing advocates who saw the configuration as representing unequal treatment. The arrangement puts the affordable apartments in a segment attached to the condo building and is allowed under zoning rules that the administration of Mayor Bill de Blasio says it is now working to change.



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By The New York Times


Despite the controversy, it is not surprising that people are knocking down the poor door to get in. Housing lotteries, which the city uses to distribute subsidized apartments in new buildings, have been drawing record numbers after the system began allowing online applications in 2013 and as the rental market has gotten tighter. The lotteries are expected to multiply after Mr. de Blasio’s pledge to produce 80,000 new affordable units over 10 years. Already this year, 10 lotteries have been held for 698 units that received about 486,000 applications, officials with the city’s Department of Housing Preservation and Development said.



Mr. Barnett said 88,200 applications had been received by early Monday. Officials with the NYC Housing Partnership, the nonprofit that will screen applicants for the developer, said that applications could reach 90,000 by the time all submissions, including those mailed and postmarked by Monday, are counted.



City housing officials said that the Hunters Point South Living project in Long Island City, Queens, has drawn the most applications so far, more than 92,000 for 924 below-market-rate apartments in a lottery that closed last year.



The units at Extell’s building are eligible to households with incomes of $30,240 to $50,340, with rents listed at $1,082 for a two-bedroom, $895 for a one-bedroom and $833 for a studio in a prime location by the Hudson River. Mr. Barnett argued that the response showed that the poor door issue was a “made-up controversy.”



“The most important thing is to provide affordable housing,” he said. “It’s what people really want.”



Affordable-housing advocates are divided on the issue, with some saying the focus should be on building more homes rather than on where to enter them. Although many residential buildings in New York integrate low-cost units, developers like Mr. Barnett say that segregating the rentals in a separate part of the building is preferable when market-rate units with the best views and amenities are for sale, and can draw top dollar, in turn allowing them to build more affordable units.



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But in the case of the Upper West Side building, that means the poorer tenants will not have access to the pool, the gym, the bowling alley and the private theater, among the add-ons used to entice buyers passing through the nonpoor door. (The renters will have their own laundry room, a community room and bike storage.) There are even separate addresses: 50 Riverside Boulevard for the condominiums, and 470 West 62nd Street for the rentals.



Mr. Barnett’s company built the low-income rentals in exchange for the freedom to construct more square feet than city rules would otherwise allow, a housing strategy called inclusionary zoning. And under current rules, if the developer chooses to attach the affordable segment to the market-rate portion of the project, it is required to provide separate entrances.



But the two-door option, adopted in a minority of new residential projects, is not in keeping with Mr. de Blasio’s liberal political stance, and officials are looking to change a range of housing codes and programs to prohibit them.



“We oppose so-called poor doors and will change the necessary rules so that when affordable housing is provided on-site, we will not allow separate entrances based on income,” Wiley Norvell, a spokesman for the mayor’s office, said.



The lottery process itself may soon be subject to review as well.



A bill introduced last week in the City Council would create a task force to review the lottery system and recommend whether it should be more flexible and undergo other changes. For example, the Council might change the rules so that applicants would not lose their spot in line if their income or family status changes while they are waiting, said Councilman Mark Levine, the sponsor.



Mr. Levine said he was also seeking ways to keep affordable housing developers from being swamped with ineligible applications, which is common amid the frenzied house hunting of the city.



“The idea of creating a task force is so that we can look for ways to make the process fairer and easier,” he said.



Shelia Martin, chief operating officer of the NYC Housing Partnership, said the screening of applicants for 470 West 62nd Street will begin next month. After they are randomly ranked, the top several thousand applications are reviewed, and about 2,000 interviews conducted, to find the 55 households that meet income and size requirements. Preferences are given to those who live in the same community district as the new building, people with disabilities and municipal employees.



“It’s not the number of applications that we get,” she said. “It’s the quality of applications.”



The first winners are expected to start moving in as early as August, Mr. Barnett said. On the other side, most of the 219 luxury condos, some of which go for more than $25 million, have sold.

[summer]

Apr 21, 2015 6:21:18 GMT -5 orangeblossom said:

“I guess people like it,” said Gary Barnett, founder and president of Extell Development Company, the tower’s developer. “It shows that there’s a tremendous demand for high-quality affordable housing in beautiful neighborhoods.”

Something about this line pisses me right off. 


The need for affordable housing is so so high.  My mom has been on the waitlist for 12 years.  It's shameful.  

[orangeblossom]

Apr 21, 2015 6:29:44 GMT -5 summer said:

Apr 21, 2015 6:21:18 GMT -5 orangeblossom said:

“I guess people like it,” said Gary Barnett, founder and president of Extell Development Company, the tower’s developer. “It shows that there’s a tremendous demand for high-quality affordable housing in beautiful neighborhoods.”

Something about this line pisses me right off. 


The need for affordable housing is so so high.  My mom has been on the waitlist for 12 years.  It's shameful.  

12 years?!  That's ridiculous. 

I agree reed with you. Of course people want affordable and safe housing. I don't know why people think people don't want affordable safe housing, regardless of their SES. 

[Velar Fricative]

Apr 21, 2015 6:29:44 GMT -5 summer said:

Apr 21, 2015 6:21:18 GMT -5 orangeblossom said:

“I guess people like it,” said Gary Barnett, founder and president of Extell Development Company, the tower’s developer. “It shows that there’s a tremendous demand for high-quality affordable housing in beautiful neighborhoods.”

Something about this line pisses me right off. 


The need for affordable housing is so so high.  My mom has been on the waitlist for 12 years.  It's shameful.  

Sorry about your mom.

That's the line that stood out to me too. They don't "like" the concept of poor doors. It's just that if you're among the poorer residents here, you dont have the luxury of being picky about where to live. I'd be sending my application in anywhere I could. If you can score an apartment in a luxury building, score. Because the luxury buildings are also closer to the jobs. If not, well, hopefully one of the non-luxury building options will come through.

[Cicero]

Honest question: are "mixed use" buildings where half is condos and the other half is apartments a thing outside of NYC? I thought they weren't really being built anymore due to the changes in FHA loans and how many units have to be sold before you can break ground and how many units must be owner occupied.

ETA: I also kind of wonder how important being FHA approved is to a building with $25miion dollar units. But the two address thing, the part where they're basically making two seperate buildings with different addresses and just connecting them enough to get the perks from the city makes it sound like (and I'm not claiming this is the primary motivation by any means) they're trying to take advantage of the city code but at the same time keep the condos FHA approved.

[summer]

Apr 21, 2015 6:49:33 GMT -5 Velar Fricative said:

Apr 21, 2015 6:29:44 GMT -5 summer said:

Something about this line pisses me right off. 


The need for affordable housing is so so high.  My mom has been on the waitlist for 12 years.  It's shameful.  

Sorry about your mom.

That's the line that stood out to me too. They don't "like" the concept of poor doors. It's just that if you're among the poorer residents here, you dont have the luxury of being picky about where to live. I'd be sending my application in anywhere I could. If you can score an apartment in a luxury building, score. Because the luxury buildings are also closer to the jobs. If not, well, hopefully one of the non-luxury building options will come through.

POOR PEOPLE! THEY'RE JUST LIKE US!

But seriously, it reads like, "see, you thought my poor door was beneath their dignity, but look! It isn't! They have none! Because they want to live in a nice neighborhood. Just like us!"

[elleblue]

Apr 21, 2015 6:29:44 GMT -5 summer said:

Apr 21, 2015 6:21:18 GMT -5 orangeblossom said:

“I guess people like it,” said Gary Barnett, founder and president of Extell Development Company, the tower’s developer. “It shows that there’s a tremendous demand for high-quality affordable housing in beautiful neighborhoods.”

Something about this line pisses me right off. 

Yep. I'm incensed they were able to go through with the "poor door" building. And of course there's a demand for high quality affordable housing. Is he brand new? Ffs.

[LadySusan]

"$30,240 to $50,340"

50K is not poor in most places in the US!!!

NYC is just completely and totally bonkers real estate wise. I'm curious how many square feet the units are. As in, are the studios bigger than 275 square feet? I wonder if tenants will turn around and get roomates and charge them market rates to bring in income?

[penguingrrl]

At just over $1K/month for a two bedroom in NYC for a building that isn't roach-infested of course they're getting 88K applicants. That doesn't mean that the applicants aren't bothered by the poor door. It means that there's an amazing dearth of affordable housing in the city and people will take whatever indignity they have to face in order to hang on by a thread.

[lishie]

Apr 21, 2015 6:29:44 GMT -5 summer said:

Something about this line pisses me right off. 


The need for affordable housing is so so high.  My mom has been on the waitlist for 12 years.  It's shameful.  

MIL's best friend was on the list for affordable artist housing in the City for nearly 30 years. She just turned 74, and moved into the new building near the highline in January. She loves it now, but it was a long road to finally get something.

She previously had an apartment on the UWS that she'd been in since the 70s. The building went co op and she was forced out and had to move regularly due to rate hikes from the mid 90s until January.

NYC housing is so crazy.

[wawa]

Apr 21, 2015 11:01:19 GMT -5 pennypenny said:

Apr 21, 2015 6:56:21 GMT -5 Cicero said:

Honest question: are "mixed use" buildings where half is condos and the other half is apartments a thing outside of NYC? I thought they weren't really being built anymore due to the changes in FHA loans and how many units have to be sold before you can break ground and how many units must be owner occupied.

ETA: I also kind of wonder how important being FHA approved is to a building with $25miion dollar units. But the two address thing, the part where they're basically making two seperate buildings with different addresses and just connecting them enough to get the perks from the city makes it sound like (and I'm not claiming this is the primary motivation by any means) they're trying to take advantage of the city code but at the same time keep the condos FHA approved.

They are becoming mandatory in DC for new construction and I think some parts of Maryland (that are closer to DC).

I wasn't under the impression that that was a rental vs. ownership situation though - that's just a requirement that a certain number of units in the building be "workforce" or affordable or moderately priced dwelling units (MPDU) or whatever phrase DC uses. 

I know Montgomery county uses MPDU, and requires they be provided in certain zones, but if it's a condo building then all the units are still condos and vice versa.  There are programs for both rentals and owned units.  For condo's I know the pricing on the MPDU's is initially set at whatever percentage of market rate they're required to be, and then I think it's restricted through covenants to only grow a certain amount over time?  Not sure exactly how resale works but I know it continues to be something that cannot be resold at market value, but it does accrue some value. 

[kadams767]

Apr 21, 2015 6:56:21 GMT -5 Cicero said:

Honest question: are "mixed use" buildings where half is condos and the other half is apartments a thing outside of NYC? I thought they weren't really being built anymore due to the changes in FHA loans and how many units have to be sold before you can break ground and how many units must be owner occupied.

ETA: I also kind of wonder how important being FHA approved is to a building with $25miion dollar units. But the two address thing, the part where they're basically making two seperate buildings with different addresses and just connecting them enough to get the perks from the city makes it sound like (and I'm not claiming this is the primary motivation by any means) they're trying to take advantage of the city code but at the same time keep the condos FHA approved.

Yes, they are happening in cities all over the country.  The thing you need to think about in regard to your question, though, is that fdevelopers will condo out a building or project first, well before what everyone else considers to be a condo, is done.  So for example, you have this Building, let's call it Building X.  The owner will form two condos, A and B, and the rental portion of Building X is actually Condo A and is comprised of the 55 rental units, and the portion that will be divided into traditional condos and sold off in units, is Condo B.  They are now separate entities.  So for FHA rules, owner-occupied percentage rules, etc., they are only looking at the condos as they relate to Condo B.  So the rentals in Condo A don't count against the owner-occupied percentage requirements, because Condo B is separate and, theoretically, 100% owner occupied (at least to start out with until people begin renting them out). 

[Cicero]

Apr 21, 2015 16:24:23 GMT -5 kadams767 said:

Apr 21, 2015 6:56:21 GMT -5 Cicero said:

Honest question: are "mixed use" buildings where half is condos and the other half is apartments a thing outside of NYC? I thought they weren't really being built anymore due to the changes in FHA loans and how many units have to be sold before you can break ground and how many units must be owner occupied.

ETA: I also kind of wonder how important being FHA approved is to a building with $25miion dollar units. But the two address thing, the part where they're basically making two seperate buildings with different addresses and just connecting them enough to get the perks from the city makes it sound like (and I'm not claiming this is the primary motivation by any means) they're trying to take advantage of the city code but at the same time keep the condos FHA approved.

Yes, they are happening in cities all over the country.  The thing you need to think about in regard to your question, though, is that fdevelopers will condo out a building or project first, well before what everyone else considers to be a condo, is done.  So for example, you have this Building, let's call it Building X.  The owner will form two condos, A and B, and the rental portion of Building X is actually Condo A and is comprised of the 55 rental units, and the portion that will be divided into traditional condos and sold off in units, is Condo B.  They are now separate entities.  So for FHA rules, owner-occupied percentage rules, etc., they are only looking at the condos as they relate to Condo B.  So the rentals in Condo A don't count against the owner-occupied percentage requirements, because Condo B is separate and, theoretically, 100% owner occupied (at least to start out with until people begin renting them out). 

Ah that makes sense.  Thanks!

[darnkatz]

Apr 21, 2015 6:29:44 GMT -5 summer said:

Apr 21, 2015 6:21:18 GMT -5 orangeblossom said:

“I guess people like it,” said Gary Barnett, founder and president of Extell Development Company, the tower’s developer. “It shows that there’s a tremendous demand for high-quality affordable housing in beautiful neighborhoods.”

Something about this line pisses me right off. 


The need for affordable housing is so so high.  My mom has been on the waitlist for 12 years.  It's shameful.  

It pisses me off too (and so does your mom's situation - that really is shameful). No, people do not LIKE it. They have little to no options with such small incomes, and this unfortunately is one of them. I will basically do anything to keep a roof over my children and food in their bellies, and I'm sure it's no different for others. No person in a lower income bracket likes things like poor doors. What the actual fuck.

Disclaimer: I don't live in NYC and did not apply to such a place, but we've been considering moving closer to my husband's work, which might mean looking into options like Mercy Housing, which is funded by the Gates Foundation. An example of how affordable housing SHOULD look.