Discipline: We're Out of Ideas

[luckyval]

Hart has had increased problems at school with listening and following directions over the past 2-3 weeks. Mild issues at first, and the teacher has been pretty strict about it in preparation for kindergarten, which we appreciate.

However, this week has been miserable.

Not listening, he called another kid a bad name (like poopy head or something), he tried to flip over a piece of furniture yesterday and this morning was caught pushing the play kitchen across the room and continued doing it even after being told to stop.

He's constantly in timeout, we've take away screen time, reading time and other privileges, he lost his sleepover at grandma's house tonight (which really screwed us over, because we needed the childcare). Nothing seems to be working.

His teacher texted and said she took away craft time for him today. Maybe that will help as that's his favorite thing at school.

But he's just really pushing the boundaries in a way that hasn't been a problem for quite a while, and he doesn't seem to care about earning back privileges.

Any ideas? We're tapped out. 


*And I made sure he had protein for breakfast this morning, so that didn't really help either*

[Deleted]

Ugh, I hear ya. How old is he?

My DD who just turned 4 is this same way. She doesn't give a shit about anything we try to take away.

So I'm sitting listening to responses right along with ya (and commiserating)

Does this mean you cant go this weekend? Or is your DH going to take over?

[lilac05]

I think your DS is older than mine, so I'm not sure if this would work, but...

DS1 is 4. Sometimes he seems to get in cycles of poor behavior. Nothing seems to work. If anything, punishment makes his behavior worse. (I think he's doing it for attention, so he's taking negative attention over "no" attention.) We try to re-set by noticing and pointing out his positive behaviors more and ignoring the negative behaviors a bit (as long as they're not dangerous or really disrespectful). Changing the focus to catching him being good seems to bring him out of his cycle...sometimes almost immediately.

[jlt19]

I'm friends with a few parents from daycare (preK as well) and every single one that has a boy is having this issue right now. I have no advice, but know that you're in good company.

[luckyval]

calamity : He's 4 1/2. I mean, I've already paid for my part to go this weekend, and I feel really shitty leaving H with this mess. A weekend with a kid that can't watch Special Agent Oso, play with friends or in his playroom is going to be a long weekend.

H was supposed to have a class early tomorrow morning, hence the need for childcare. But he's planning on skipping class now.

puddleofgrace : We haven't talked about kindergarten a whole lot - we planned to have him tested next month to see if he's ready. With all of this, we're wondering if we should.

There's been some changes in schedule with H now self-employed. We trade morning drop offs instead of me doing it every day, and I'm home a little later than usual, but not a lot. But this has been the case for about 2 months. And he seemed to be benefitting from the extra time with dad. Besides that, he usually adapts well to change. I'll add that things have been better at home, H isn't as stressed like he was at his old job, so I thought these were all good changes!

[Deleted]

Maybe he is going through a growth spurt, or just testing his independence? Those are always the excuses I use for DD, lol!

It's all a phase, he's just being an annoying 4 year old.

DD tantrumed for 45 minutes the other night because she hated what I made for dinner (meatloaf) and then tried one bite and loved it.

Fucking kids, man!

[compassrose]

This might be silly, but is he in sports? Or anything which uses up a lot of physical energy on a regular basis?

I have 3 SSs. At any age from 6-15, if they have not been active enough, they tend to make trouble. They collectively play hockey, football and swim and on days they run/skate/swim hard, they are much less anxious or restless or trouble. Still true at 15.

So my advice is to tucker him out physically. It gives him a safe outlet for restless energy and should help with anxiety/moods.
Ignore me if this is irrelevant for your situation.

[luckyval]

Apr 24, 2015 10:02:02 GMT -5 lilac05 said:

I think your DS is older than mine, so I'm not sure if this would work, but...

DS1 is 4. Sometimes he seems to get in cycles of poor behavior. Nothing seems to work. If anything, punishment makes his behavior worse. (I think he's doing it for attention, so he's taking negative attention over "no" attention.) We try to re-set by noticing and pointing out his positive behaviors more and ignoring the negative behaviors a bit (as long as they're not dangerous or really disrespectful). Changing the focus to catching him being good seems to bring him out of his cycle...sometimes almost immediately.

This is a really good point - and there have been some new kids in class. This may be a trigger.

Thank you!

[luckyval]

Apr 24, 2015 10:06:16 GMT -5 puddleofgrace said:

Apr 24, 2015 10:03:34 GMT -5 luckyval said:

puddleofgrace : We haven't talked about kindergarten a whole lot - we planned to have him tested next month to see if he's ready. With all of this, we're wondering if we should.

I meant if daycare/preschool is talking about it a lot. Prepping the kids for what to expect, changing their expectations of the kids to align more with the kindergarten behavior expectations, etc.

Also a good point - and I'm not sure if she has talked to him about it. This is definitely something we'll ask about.

[floridakat]

My girls are 4 1/2, and we're having similar issues with one of them. The not listening and blatant disobedience might possibly be the end of me. I hope someone has some words of wisdom.

[luckyval]

Apr 24, 2015 10:08:20 GMT -5 jenny1980 said:

Four year olds are rough. Ugh. I have enjoyed 5 sooooooooooo much more.

Have you tried a reward system? It seems like a lot of the negative consequences aren't working. Maybe he can earn TV time, a toy, etc. through positive behavior at school?

We have a rewards chart. Which he's missed earning the rewards 3 weeks in a row.

H said he's going to the teacher supply store to find a new chart.

[Booze Raccoon]

Apr 24, 2015 10:03:34 GMT -5 luckyval said:

calamity : He's 4 1/2. I mean, I've already paid for my part to go this weekend, and I feel really shitty leaving H with this mess. A weekend with a kid that can't watch Special Agent Oso, play with friends or in his playroom is going to be a long weekend.

H was supposed to have a class early tomorrow morning, hence the need for childcare. But he's planning on skipping class now.

puddleofgrace : We haven't talked about kindergarten a whole lot - we planned to have him tested next month to see if he's ready. With all of this, we're wondering if we should.

There's been some changes in schedule with H now self-employed. We trade morning drop offs instead of me doing it every day, and I'm home a little later than usual, but not a lot. But this has been the case for about 2 months. And he seemed to be benefitting from the extra time with dad. Besides that, he usually adapts well to change. I'll add that things have been better at home, H isn't as stressed like he was at his old job, so I thought these were all good changes!

I bet the change is effecting him more than anyone realizes.  I think as kids get older and more aware, the accept change less because they understand things are different and it rattles them a little.  I also think calamity has made a lot of good points.  FWIW, I would guess this is a phase that will end soon.

[snowflurry]

Does he work with better with positive reinforcement rather than negative consequences? DS does a lot of what you described. Time outs, telling him no repeatedly, taking things away, etc doesn't work for him. We had to create a positive system. i.e. if he goes a certain amount of days with no misbehaving, he gets "reward" (buying his lunch at school, getting a treat in his lunch, staying up 5 minutes later, etc). He responds much better to this type of discipline.

[my3boyz]

I'd recommend shorter reward sessions. I know my son gets into cycles. When they're good it's good but when it's bad it's really bad. It's hard to pull himself out of a bad cycle to a good one. I would try a reward system for short time periods. Think, if he makes it to lunch with good behavior he gets a sticker. Then if he makes it to pick-up he gets another. If he gets one sticker he gets ... But if he gets both he gets something bigger. If he gets through a couple of days then lengthen it. So then he has to make it through the whole day. Then a week.

I'm a glass half empty type, it's just who I am. I have to constantly remind myself to reward for motivation vs. get punitive. Good luck.

[sharknado]

4 year olds are assholes

[cereal K]

I'll be following this post because this is our life right now (but add in hitting, kicking, and the occasional death threat - i wish i was kidding). The only difference is that C's birthday misses the cutoff, so she's got another year of daycare/preschool before kindy.

[auntie]

Apr 24, 2015 9:55:34 GMT -5 puddleofgrace said:

Have they been talking a lot about the transition to Kindergarten in the last few weeks?

I know Nattie had a hard time last year when they started talking about all of the changes. It caused major anxiety for her.
Is he an anxious kid?

OMG. Yes.

DS has some issues, among them GAD. His teachers routinely pulled the crap about how the next transition in school was going to be challenging for the kids and that teachers at the next school would be draconian in their standards. This just did more harm than good and always ramped up behaviors.

I don't tend to have consequences for in-school transgressions unless they are serious character issues. Theft, assault, bullying would have a consequence at home, otherwise I let the teacher do her job. It's not an effective strategy to invoke a consequences for a school infraction hours later at home. 

[sharknado]

Apr 24, 2015 10:25:41 GMT -5 auntie said:

Apr 24, 2015 9:55:34 GMT -5 puddleofgrace said:

Have they been talking a lot about the transition to Kindergarten in the last few weeks?

I know Nattie had a hard time last year when they started talking about all of the changes. It caused major anxiety for her.
Is he an anxious kid?

OMG. Yes.

DS has some issues, among them GAD. His teachers routinely pulled the crap about how the next transition in school was going to be challenging for the kids and that teachers at the next school would be draconian in their standards. This just did more harm than good and always ramped up behaviors.

I don't tend to have consequences for in-school transgressions unless they are serious character issues. Theft, assault, bullying would have a consequence at home, otherwise I let the teacher do her job. It's not an effective strategy to invoke a consequences for a school infraction hours later at home. 

I just love it when stupid shit comes out of your mouth.

[livinitup]

How is he at home? Everything you described are school reports, which sadly, are a lot less effective to intervene in the home environment.

My child care program did not encourage us to punish at home for school behavior. We had close communication and we supported the staff. My cousin is an amazing Pre-K teacher (certified and working in a public school for special needs children) and always encouraged her parents to let school issues remain in the school. I know its hard, you want to "DO SOMETHING", but if these punishments aren't working, I'd seriously wonder if they are making it worse. Taking screen time may make sense, but I definitely never took away reading time, or anything that supported/bonded DD with us. I mostly increase it. And I fully admit that I never punished/took away anything that benefitted us - like a grandma sleepover. Nope. Especially if that relationship might help him through what can be seen as a difficult time (even if behavior is poor).

So, maybe I'm dissenting from the crowd and recommending that less punishment, and more positive attention/activities would be a good solution. At least it was for us. Plus, turning 5, that REALLY helped. ((Hugs)) - this is such a difficult age for everyone.

[mushmouse]

When we've gotten caught in an awful cycle I've had success talking to my son and saying something like "we're just having an awful time, let's just not do this anymore. I don't want to yell at you and punish you and I know you don't want this. I know you're kind and nice and funny so let's just stop doing this and stop acting this way. Tomorrow is going to be a good day so when we wake up tomorrow let's just have a good time". Or just something to say you're good, this isn't like you and let's stop the BS and the fighting.

I don't consider myself a softie but what you described seems like a lot of punishment - no reading or seeing grandma. And he can't play? How would you even enforce that? If you feel like you've gone too far I think it's okay to give him an easy way to 'earn back' the playing or toys and reading. He's still really young and he hasn't killed anyone. Last year when my son was 3 his teacher always had some kind of comment and in the beginning I felt like I was preparing for his parole hearing. But I calmed down and realized they're little and they can't behave perfectly all the time. If you're too hard on him he might not be able to tell you what's going on if there is something that's bothering him. This shit's hard!

[luckyval]

Apr 24, 2015 10:37:22 GMT -5 livinitup said:

How is he at home? Everything you described are school reports, which sadly, are a lot less effective to intervene in the home environment.

My child care program did not encourage us to punish at home for school behavior. We had close communication and we supported the staff. My cousin is an amazing Pre-K teacher (certified and working in a public school for special needs children) and always encouraged her parents to let school issues remain in the school. I know its hard, you want to "DO SOMETHING", but if these punishments aren't working, I'd seriously wonder if they are making it worse. Taking screen time may make sense, but I definitely never took away reading time, or anything that supported/bonded DD with us. I mostly increase it. And I fully admit that I never punished/took away anything that benefitted us - like a grandma sleepover. Nope. Especially if that relationship might help him through what can be seen as a difficult time (even if behavior is poor).

So, maybe I'm dissenting from the crowd and recommending that less punishment, and more positive attention/activities would be a good solution. At least it was for us. Plus, turning 5, that REALLY helped. ((Hugs)) - this is such a difficult age for everyone.

And this is a really good point. We're going over to meet with his teacher this afternoon and this is something I'm going to bring up.

I guess, the thought process for us has been that larger discipline problems at school (hitting, breaking something, calling names/bullying) have warranted follow up from us at home. Smaller things, like not following directions, resulted in not earning a star on the rewards chart that night and little else from us.

[luckyval]

Apr 24, 2015 10:42:30 GMT -5 mushmouse said:

When we've gotten caught in an awful cycle I've had success talking to my son and saying something like "we're just having an awful time, let's just not do this anymore. I don't want to yell at you and punish you and I know you don't want this. I know you're kind and nice and funny so let's just stop doing this and stop acting this way. Tomorrow is going to be a good day so when we wake up tomorrow let's just have a good time". Or just something to say you're good, this isn't like you and let's stop the BS and the fighting.

I don't consider myself a softie but what you described seems like a lot of punishment - no reading or seeing grandma. And he can't play? How would you even enforce that? If you feel like you've gone too far I think it's okay to give him an easy way to 'earn back' the playing or toys and reading. He's still really young and he hasn't killed anyone. Last year when my son was 3 his teacher always had some kind of comment and in the beginning I felt like I was preparing for his parole hearing. But I calmed down and realized their little and they can't behave perfectly all the time. If you're too hard on him he might not be able to tell you what's going on if there is something that's bothering him. This shit's hard!

We've been trying to remind ourselves of this as well - and in the realm of things, what he's doing is well within the norm of just being a 4 year old.

To answer your question - what we've done this week is have him doing chores when he gets home (dishes, help with the composting, feed the cats, help cook dinner) and then we've been sitting at the table after dinner to color pictures, write letters and numbers until bed.

[mushmouse]

After reading the other responses - they also say at our school not to punish at home for something that happens there. If it was bad I'd address it I think but for the most part they're there and handle it in the moment. And getting my son exhausted also helps. When I feel like all I'm doing is correcting him for weeks I try to take him and do either an all day outing or shorter, highly physical one where he can't do anything wrong. Like a bounce place or a day at a children's museum. Because I can't imagine what I'd be like if someone was following me around all day saying NO, even if I was wrong. A day of pure fun and no correction that ends in a deep sleep always helps. And I'm so glad to see that other people seem to go through horrendous cycles with their children too. It helps to know you're not alone!

[luckyval]

And maybe we're going to far in to correction. He's generally a good kid and this week has frazzled our nerves and has certainly exhausted all three of us.

Thank you guys for the feedback here - I sent H this link so he could read your comments.

[moolarkey]

I had one kind of like this. One thing that helped when he was younger was actually to give him more school work. We bought additional workbooks that were his and he could use when he got done, if other kids were still working. He loved it and it worked.

As he got older we had a problem with grades. He would do homework (I'd check it, I knew it was done) but NOT turn it in. Just would not ever that dropped his grades at least a full letter grade. We could take away anything and he didn't care. I will say our issue with him was always grades. Nothing worked until he was 15.5 and wanted his driver's permit. (commence screaming AH HA!!!!!!). He had to get his grades up and keep them up for 2 consecutive 9 week periods before I'd let him get his permit. Then he had to keep them up or I'd yank the license. It was the only thing that worked with that kid. Otherwise, he wasn't a problem but grades and turning in homework... wow, drove me crazy.

Teachers loved my son, he was a really good person but this grades thing. I hope your situation gets better, it is so frustrating.

[zarapipe]

I'm sorry your having a hard time. Listening is so difficult for DD. She just turned 5 and will be in K next year. This is a continuous conversation with us and her teacher at PreK. She is strong willed, smart and knows exactly what she wants. Just yesterday her teacher reminded me to not focus on the negatives but focus on how helpful it can be to her in the future to have those personality traits. I needed that when I feel like I am constantly repeating myself, doing time outs, etc. Just last night we had to leave dance class because she was acting horribly and started to hit me. Kids man- so hard.

[auntie]

Apr 24, 2015 10:29:40 GMT -5 sharknado said:

Apr 24, 2015 10:25:41 GMT -5 auntie said:

OMG. Yes.

DS has some issues, among them GAD. His teachers routinely pulled the crap about how the next transition in school was going to be challenging for the kids and that teachers at the next school would be draconian in their standards. This just did more harm than good and always ramped up behaviors.

I don't tend to have consequences for in-school transgressions unless they are serious character issues. Theft, assault, bullying would have a consequence at home, otherwise I let the teacher do her job. It's not an effective strategy to invoke a consequences for a school infraction hours later at home. 

I just love it when stupid shit comes out of your mouth.

Glad you find me amusing.

[nonsensetomfoolery]

I would take him out somewhere neutral and get a treat- ice cream, Starbucks, a cookie etc. I would sit down and talk to him about what's going on and why he thinks things are so rough. I would ask him what he thinks would help him behave better and how you can help him be a better listener. Together we would make a list of consequences. I would have him write a letter (or draw a picture) to his teacher to apologize for his misbehaviors and to let her know that he was going to try and be a better listener. I would also throw out all of the punishments and have a "fresh start" and go from there with reminders about the consequences and then follow through. I basically did this last night and the kid picked WAY harsher consequences than I had in mind. Today was much better, let's hope the weekend is too!

[Deleted]

Didn't read, but have you considered taking him to tour a Kindergarten class/elementary school? Maybe show him that behaving is expected in elementary school and WOW look at how cool kindergarten is going to be, but only for kids who can behave.

[DotAndBuzz]

I think it's ok to have a "reboot." There are times when the negative consequences work, and there are times when the kid gives zero fucks at all about losing all fun things. It sounds like you're in that spot now.

I like what mushmouse said about sitting him down and telling him how you know he wants to behave better, etc. Really go out of your way to praise the positive. What I've seen with my kid who is simultaneously a sensitive snowflake and a hard headed stubborn brick wall, is that the more you push to lock them down, the harder they'll push back. Stop pushing. Let them call the shots about a few things at home and really REALLY praise him being a big boy/helper. Talk about how you know he'll be able to do XYZ at school too, since he's SO good at doing it at home, etc, when he does it well at home. Kind of make it like "see, you've got this! No big deal! Easy peasy!" Make that connection for him.

Something else to think about: let them work towards something positive, instead of the work being a negative consequence for behavior. So that way he stays busy, but also can see a positive outcome from his actions. For example, I have TV on lockdown right now, because it turns N into a beast after school these days. So instead she either goes straight to homework, or does little odd jobs for me, and I pay her a quarter, or whatever, and she's saving her money for some American Girl stuff. So while she's still pissed about the no tv, she's seeing a positive outcome to her work too. If that makes sense.

Good luck! I've been there, and will certainly be there again, and I know it's SO hard!