s/o tragic life - libs and cons come in please

[pedanticwench]

And mx says it, again, brilliantly.

[pixy0stix]

Aug 13, 2012 17:08:24 GMT -5 pedanticwench said:

You don't think these people are on government assistance?

Honestly? No, not unless it's tied to the kid in some way.

Not every poor person is on gov. assistance, and not all of them will accept it even if they qualify for it.

Hell, they might not even qualify for gov. assistance, the threshold for assistance being ridiculously low.

[ringstrue]

Eta : ok I thought the kid was arrested not the bio dad, lol.shows how little I think of Troy.

[pixy0stix]

Aug 13, 2012 17:12:47 GMT -5 @mx said:

The only times I have seen programs to "help" the poor succeed on a broad scale are when they are either administered by members of their own communities without judgment and without prejudice or when the people who are "helping" are in equitable real relationships with those people. Where both parties stand to gain, and by gain I don't mean feel good about themselves for "helping the poor." That's something that is really hard to achieve, may not ever be sustainable in the long run, and is certainly not something that a haphazard volunteer program can engineer. True friendships can do a lot for people, but friendships across deep class lines are inherently fragile and fraught with misunderstanding. And often terribly frustrating for all parties involved.

Amen. Poor people help poor people, rich people help rich people. That's the way it is.

Example from my town: They had a toy program for christmas gifts for children of the community "in need." My mom went to sign us up for it. She didn't realize that "in need" meant the middle class children. She was told that "there are other programs for people like you where you can get your free toys." I remember this because it's one of the only times my mom came home and started sobbing about our economic state.

I wish this was the only instance I had of this type of discrimination.

One time the local laundry mat (the only one in town) opened up it's doors because they knew they had a large population of poor migrant workers in need of their services. They had one free day of use for the machines. Do you want to know who showed up and used all of the machines? Do you? All the mid and upper class people in town, because it was a "free" day. Open to all. Gotta take advantage of that and wash your car mats, don'tcha know!

My friend's family showed up with their clothes and left without taking advantage of the opportunity.

[Deleted]

Aug 13, 2012 16:43:05 GMT -5 pedanticwench said:

I would like to agree with you Reeve, but it seems like poverty is a constant for all cultures and societies, even with religion.

What bothers me most is that people hang onto religious tenets while living completely separated from their faith. Which is probably why Kayla did not have an abortion. But 'm just guessing here, who knows?

And really, these people are tied socially. They're tied to people who live just like they do.

I wasn't really addressing the poverty side - there will always be, and has always been, poor people. I was more concerned with the fact that poor or not, people don't have the expectation or hope of a better life anymore. Maybe that was always the case, who knows? I am not saying it very well...it just feels to me like even 20 years ago people would be more ashamed of certain behavior, and so were less inclined to, say, have a baby at 14. Not that it didn't happen, but the social restrictions etc made it happen less.
Obviously that has its own problems, but nowadays if you get pregnant at 16, you get to be on TV! Whoop! Its a big change from the reaction that used to get.
I never really fall on either side - people should be free to do as they please - but I do think the lack of any real social network means that many people no longer feel like they have to behave "properly".

I should add that I am not blaming the people in this photo thing - my comments are more generally about attitude and how we function (or dont) when we dont have that social network to both help and keep us in line.

[summer]

This may be the most depressing thread I've ever read.

[Deleted]

Aug 13, 2012 17:34:27 GMT -5 summer said:

This may be the most depressing thread I've ever read.

Seriously.

[livinitup]

Aug 13, 2012 18:03:42 GMT -5 @mx said:

If you want to talk on a policy level I think you need to talk about a few things. We need to talk about the number of people in this country--including juveniles who are locked up on any given day. That's a real, hard policy issue.

Then we need to talk about the logical consequence of that. If we are going to lock so many people up, some before they are even adults, what are we going to do about the fact that hardly anyone will hire a felon? Or rent to one?

And when locking someone up results in the creation of a single parent home, what do we do to support that parent so they can still work?

We need to talk about drug policy. Both why so many people are in jail because of drugs, and why people who have the disease of addiction are treated like criminals instead of sick people.

There are a lot of things to talk about if you want to talk about meeting the material needs of the poor--not that it will end generational poverty, but it can alleviate some of its harshest symptoms.

We can talk about our social welfare workforce and why they are paid and treated like crap, and given caseloads so heavy that they don't have time to build the relationships and ask the questions that might reveal a kid is being sexually abused before they present with PTSD 6 years later.

We can talk about why no one who can afford to will live near, or send their kids to school with poor people.

Or about education and enrichment, and why most kids from poor communities who do go to college (and plenty do) don't reach the levels of income and success as kids from middle class communities. Or why we will give a child who can't read a HS diploma and send them off into the world.

We can talk about our institutional and personal discrimination against the poor and those we perceive to be poor. And how our prejudices drive policy in the absence or in spite of facts. We can talk about how our values are somehow different or better than poor people without actually personally knowing enough of them to form more than an anecdote.

And we can talk about volunteering and giving money, but unless we talk about all of the above in a truly meaningful, thoughtful and humble way no one is going to fix it. No number of amazing, selfless nonprofit workers are going to end poverty through the implementation of stop gap, contradictory and duplicative, sometimes helpful, sometimes meaningless and often harmful interventions based on gut feeling and passion. On some level, in every society, poverty has structural components and if we ignore them nothing is going to change.

Do you have a blog? Or are you published somewhere that I can find it, read it and lamenate it??

[caden]

There are some good ideas for charitable programs (gov't funded or private), but that just helps people get by. I'm not sure how effective it is at breaking the cycle of poverty. No program is going to make a shitty mother turn into a good one. Statistically speaking if a poor person did 4 things: finish HS, work full-time, wait until you're married to have kids, and not have more than 2 kids, there is a only a minuscule chance of remaining in poverty. a source. Those are behavioral things the gov't can try to influence, but will probably not be very good at it if a person feels it's perfectly fine not to do any of those things. I really think it's a community-based problem and the solution needs to start there and work its way up. Some friends of mine have a mentoring charity that is pretty small but has great results at getting messed up kids to finish school and find jobs. I think role-modeling/mentoring like that can do a lot of good.

[heightsyankee]

Having worked as a VISTA for Big Brothers and Sisters (and having been mentored as a kid in a similar program), I can tell you that mentoring is one of the best ways, IMO, to break this cycle. In fact, I am going to sign up as a Big Sister this year since both kids will be in school (and we've decided not to have another because we may end up with my sister's kids eventually, and will be supporting them financially either way).

[cookiemdough]

Aug 13, 2012 18:03:42 GMT -5 @mx said:

If you want to talk on a policy level I think you need to talk about a few things. We need to talk about the number of people in this country--including juveniles who are locked up on any given day. That's a real, hard policy issue.

Then we need to talk about the logical consequence of that. If we are going to lock so many people up, some before they are even adults, what are we going to do about the fact that hardly anyone will hire a felon? Or rent to one?

And when locking someone up results in the creation of a single parent home, what do we do to support that parent so they can still work?

We need to talk about drug policy. Both why so many people are in jail because of drugs, and why people who have the disease of addiction are treated like criminals instead of sick people.

There are a lot of things to talk about if you want to talk about meeting the material needs of the poor--not that it will end generational poverty, but it can alleviate some of its harshest symptoms.

We can talk about our social welfare workforce and why they are paid and treated like crap, and given caseloads so heavy that they don't have time to build the relationships and ask the questions that might reveal a kid is being sexually abused before they present with PTSD 6 years later.

We can talk about why no one who can afford to will live near, or send their kids to school with poor people.

Or about education and enrichment, and why most kids from poor communities who do go to college (and plenty do) don't reach the levels of income and success as kids from middle class communities. Or why we will give a child who can't read a HS diploma and send them off into the world.

We can talk about our institutional and personal discrimination against the poor and those we perceive to be poor. And how our prejudices drive policy in the absence or in spite of facts. We can talk about how our values are somehow different or better than poor people without actually personally knowing enough of them to form more than an anecdote.

And we can talk about volunteering and giving money, but unless we talk about all of the above in a truly meaningful, thoughtful and humble way no one is going to fix it. No number of amazing, selfless nonprofit workers are going to end poverty through the implementation of stop gap, contradictory and duplicative, sometimes helpful, sometimes meaningless and often harmful interventions based on gut feeling and passion. On some level, in every society, poverty has structural components and if we ignore them nothing is going to change.

So spot on.

[JLN]

In Oregon we have a program called "Healthy Start." Before a mother is discharged from the hospital after birth, a counselor comes in and asks a survey of questions like if you have a safe, clean place to take the baby home to, if you can afford heat and food, if you're being abused, etc.

If the counselor sees fit, or if you're a teen parent, a counselor will come to your home and help with any issues. They bring formula if needed, assist in breastfeeding, assist in signing up for housing and food assistance and WIC.

My friend works as a counselor for them and it's an amazing program. And it's paid for by the state and each county.

If every state had something that assessed new moms before even leaving the hospital, assuring them they're not alone and help is out there, it would help significantly.

[JLN]

Aug 13, 2012 20:33:18 GMT -5 heightsyankee said:

Having worked as a VISTA for Big Brothers and Sisters (and having been mentored as a kid in a similar program), I can tell you that mentoring is one of the best ways, IMO, to break this cycle. In fact, I am going to sign up as a Big Sister this year since both kids will be in school (and we've decided not to have another because we may end up with my sister's kids eventually, and will be supporting them financially either way).

:Y: Awesome! Being a Big Sister has seriously been one of the best things I've ever done. And we've been matched for almost 3 years.

[Melissa W.]

I've been thinking about this thread all night. From those in the trenches so to speak how can the average person help?

I've been working under the assumption that by donating money, food and clothing that I am helping but is there something else that I can do or a more effective way to do it. I guess I just see these images I want to know what I can do NOW in addition to recognizing what needs change long term.

[ringstrue]

Nevermind that livable wages would help people feel like they didn't need to commit crimes, sell drugs, then get addicted and/or go to jail.

Thats why I am excited about the nanoscale industry here that plans to train kids starting in highschool. I think every community needs something(s) like that that can "promise" a good wage to all non college bound kids w/o a long training time.

[Melissa W.]

Aug 14, 2012 7:40:15 GMT -5 ringstrue said:

Nevermind that livable wages would help people feel like they didn't need to commit crimes, sell drugs, then get addicted and/or go to jail.

Thats why I am excited about the nanoscale industry here that plans to train kids starting in highschool. I think every community needs something(s) like that that can "promise" a good wage to all non college bound kids w/o a long training time.

I think tech schools and agri-science programs play a huge role in this.

[statlerwaldorf]

Re: Abortion. That is part of the problem. Abortions are not available for a lot of people. They are expensive and not covered by Medicaid. It is hard to find a clinic that even does abortions. Then you have to worry about transportation to and from the clinic. It's a huge burden on the poor. I am also really for affordable iuds since you don't have to worry about getting it refilled or accidentally skipping a pill. However, I don't think in many cases the teenage pregnancy was unwanted and all of the birth control and abortions in the world won't change that.

A big issue is with the men in this cycle of poverty. They are not taught to deal with anger and so many grow up violent. Parents don't know how to properly discipline their children. It seems like people from this culture of poverty are more likely to punish their children through spanking and just beating them. It seems more common to see violence. Drugs are a lot more prevalent. If someone gets charged with breaking the law, they are not going to be able to afford the best defense, so they have that stacked up against them. With the way the economy is particularly in former manufacturing towns, you can't even get a job at Walmart if you have a violent offense.

I think the police are biased. I think they would be more likely to search a car of the thug looking kid than the car of a more suburban looking kid which could lead to drug charges.

Re:Budgeting. You can budget all day long, but with mom and grandma working shitty jobs there is no way they will be able to afford all of those kids running around.

I volunteer with a local organization for the poor. We have enough volunteers not that we would turn anyone away. We need more funding. We need more food for the food banks. We need more winter coats for the kids. We need more shoes for the homeless that have to walk everywhere since there is not a public transportation system. We need an affordable transportation system. We have a little grant money, but it keeps getting cut more and more. We aren't getting enough private funding.

I think the hardest part is that these kids aren't likeable. I had a neighbor just like that kid. He was 9 years old. They had 9 people living in a 700 sq foot shack. His dad was a teenage dad. He also had an older son that he saw every other weekends. Anyway this kid was awful. He had no regard for people's stuff. But I just don't think he was ever taught those things. None of the neighborhood kids were allowed to play with him. He would come over and play with DD. It was kind of exhausting trying to teach this kid basic rules, but after a while he grew on me. Some of the things he would say were just heartbreaking. After his grandpa was arrested for beating his grandma, he came over the next day and told me about it. His whole attitude was like it was completely normal. One time I found his alcoholic grandma passed out in the yard. They were evicted and the kid was telling me all about their financial problems. He would always come over and ask DH for money to buy a soda or whatever, but he seemed ungrateful. I don't think he was ungrateful, but I think he wasn't taught basic social manners. He was telling me about how much he likes ICP and would wear a lot of old ICP shirts. He tried to act old for his age. I worry about that kid a lot. I have no idea what happened to them after they were evicted. I think people expect others to express a certain humility or gratefulness when accepting help, but I think so many of those things are taught from a really young age.

[SallyJ]

I really don't know the right answer that work for all situations. For me personally to break the poverty/drug/alcohol/abusive home it was a combination of things:

-kind neighbor who babysat me and seemed to have a 'normal' home that showed me cupboards could be full of food and that kids should be kids and not worried about money. Really just kindness and love. Felt like the difference between a sunny day and a dreary day when compared to my home.

-government aid in the form of welfare, WIC, subsidized daycare, section 8 housing, free lunch program that helped keep a roof over our head, the lights on, minimal food on the table, and my parents to hold a job

-charitable organizations that gave us Christmas presents (gave me serious hope and that things weren't so bad even just for those few hours), new clothes (so I wasn't bullied), and free food when we needed it (in case my parents were stupid again and burned through the welfare money on drugs/alcohol)

-My 1st grade teacher who consoled me after I told her way too much information about my family and how I didn't want to live that life anymore. Her answer 'Educate yourself. If you want out, get good grades, go to college. Educate yourself.'

-Foster home - it was a short placement for only a few months but I got to see what parents were supposed to do for the kids. My expectations of my parents went WAY up after that experience. Learning how to have a routine, what kinds of healthy foods to cook and create a meal, how to do chores/laundry and earn money so that I could save or spend it. It's helped me be a better parent otherwise I would have been so, so lost.

[SallyJ]

Aug 13, 2012 18:03:42 GMT -5 @mx said:

If you want to talk on a policy level I think you need to talk about a few things. We need to talk about the number of people in this country--including juveniles who are locked up on any given day. That's a real, hard policy issue.

Then we need to talk about the logical consequence of that. If we are going to lock so many people up, some before they are even adults, what are we going to do about the fact that hardly anyone will hire a felon? Or rent to one?

And when locking someone up results in the creation of a single parent home, what do we do to support that parent so they can still work?

We need to talk about drug policy. Both why so many people are in jail because of drugs, and why people who have the disease of addiction are treated like criminals instead of sick people.

There are a lot of things to talk about if you want to talk about meeting the material needs of the poor--not that it will end generational poverty, but it can alleviate some of its harshest symptoms.

We can talk about our social welfare workforce and why they are paid and treated like crap, and given caseloads so heavy that they don't have time to build the relationships and ask the questions that might reveal a kid is being sexually abused before they present with PTSD 6 years later.

We can talk about why no one who can afford to will live near, or send their kids to school with poor people.

Or about education and enrichment, and why most kids from poor communities who do go to college (and plenty do) don't reach the levels of income and success as kids from middle class communities. Or why we will give a child who can't read a HS diploma and send them off into the world.

We can talk about our institutional and personal discrimination against the poor and those we perceive to be poor. And how our prejudices drive policy in the absence or in spite of facts. We can talk about how our values are somehow different or better than poor people without actually personally knowing enough of them to form more than an anecdote.

And we can talk about volunteering and giving money, but unless we talk about all of the above in a truly meaningful, thoughtful and humble way no one is going to fix it. No number of amazing, selfless nonprofit workers are going to end poverty through the implementation of stop gap, contradictory and duplicative, sometimes helpful, sometimes meaningless and often harmful interventions based on gut feeling and passion. On some level, in every society, poverty has structural components and if we ignore them nothing is going to change.

And so much this. All of this.

[summer]

I don't think gov't assistance alone can completely solve amything, BUT things gov't could provide like consistent funding, trained people, and research would at least be helpful. Gov't definitely is a major component, as are mentors, role models, charity...it takes a village and in my world gov't is part if that. I don't understand the argument that we should take gov't off the table because they can't solve the whole thing. No one can. It's a systemic problem with a lot of causes and there need to be several people involved in the solution.

And no, no country is perfect, every country will have people who fall, or jump, into cracks, but I think with more safety nets, you wouldn't get so many.

The older I get, the less I understand the resistance to paying into a system to help everyone. I listen to the arguments and I try to understand but it's like trying to understand Chinese for me. I don't mean that snarky, I'm sure other people feel the same way about how I think.

[Melissa W.]

summer, I absolutely understand this part:
"The older I get, the less I understand the resistance to paying into a system to help everyone. I listen to the arguments and I try to understand but it's like trying to understand Chinese for me. I don't mean that snarky, I'm sure other people feel the same way about how I think."

I don't understand how helping others can be a bad thing.