I'm so sorry about being a huge PW about this issue. I'm struggling--I keep second guessing myself and wondering if I'm just crazy, but my mom gut is telling me something is wrong.
Last night was horrible. P was up several times, which I get is normal and isn't what bothers me. What does bother me is that he seems inconsolable and nursing only frustrates him more. Things improved some after the tongue and lip tie revision but now it's even worse than it was before. He latches on and off and just wails in between. He chokes and coughs and my nipples hurt now. My boobs don't feel empty after a feeding and they usually end with me getting frustrated and giving him a pacifier. Because he latches and unlatches so much, by the end of a feeding, he's stiff with bad gas. It often seems like coordinating suck-swallow-breathe is a problem.
It breaks my heart because he gets so angry. Instead of nursing calming him down, it ramps him up most of the time. I feel helpless.
Here's a list of what I've tried:
-different nursing positions (side-lying, football, cradle, cross-cradle, reclined) -gas drops -probiotics -Zantac and Prevacid -lip and tongue tie revision -3 different IBCLCs -burping frequently during feedings -pumping first in case it's an overactive letdown
Even despite all his issues, we've done several weighed feeds and he gets a decent amount, usually 3ish ounces. He takes 4 4 ounce bottles at daycare, and nurses before, immediately after, before bed, and 1-3 times overnight. I just don't get it.
He does spit up a lot, but I don't think it's so much that it's super concerning. He poops every 4-5 days or so and it's yellow-orange and seedy. No blood or mucus in it. Plenty of wet diapers.
I'm trying not to worry about the weight gain/lack thereof since I know things can fluctuate daily. But the fact of the matter is that he's still so tiny and we're on the verge of a FTT diagnosis. So when he won't eat I freak out a little, and when I saw that he'd LOST several ounces the other day it pushed me over the edge.
I feel like I'm getting into a really bad headspace with this. I'm starting to wonder if I'm the crazy one here, if this is all just normal baby behavior or what. I am not opposed to FFing, but I don't really think that would solve our problem since I have plenty of milk, even more than I did with C and he was a chunk. He has many of the same problems with bottle feeding that he does with breastfeeding, so I don't even know if EP would help.
The LCs I've seen have not been terribly helpful. One was like, "well he's transferring milk so what's the problem?", one diagnosed the lip and tongue tie, and the third basically told me he'd never nurse well because of his anatomy.
I just don't know what to do. His four month well check at the ped isn't for another month. I feel dumb calling for a sick visit to be like "he's fussy and lost weight." H's aunt is a local pediatrician on the other side of town, and I'm thinking of asking her what she thinks.
If you've made it this far, have a cookie. Any wisdom appreciated.
Post by everafter07 on Apr 27, 2015 9:46:42 GMT -5
Your gut is telling you something is wrong, don't feel bad about bringing it up to the pedi again. I know this isn't ideal, but have you tried cutting things out of your diet?
ETA: I'm sorry you and P are having such a hard time. I know you've said you really struggle for equality in the way you provided for C in the way provide for P. Big hugs. I'd definitely ask the pedi again. You know P better than anyone.
Since I know he had the tongue tie issue, is it possible nursing hurts? Or is just harder than using a bottle, so he gets frustrated?
I almost wonder if EP and feeding is the way to go until his tongue strength improves (I think this is what you said the therapies were going to do). Not ideal, but if you have the milk, it's might be worth it.
ETA: Ignore me. I missed the fact that bottle and breastfeeding have the same issues. Or maybe it's painful just to eat period. I have no idea about lip/tongue tie though.
I would cut out all dairy immediately. (I didn't see this in the list?) this sounds like it could be a dairy intolerance. How is his poop?
ETA: sorry I see about his poop.
I would still give no dairy a shot. My kids never had blood or mucous. They did gave greenish and watery but I wouldn't count it out just because his poop isn't bad
I haven't made any diet changes. That's probably my next step. I've been hesitant to, just because his poop is really normal. I've always read that with dairy intolerance there's abnormalities there and I see none.
How did you feel about the LC who diagnosed the lip/tongue tie? Do you think she could give you anymore useful information? What about LLL?
I feel like most pedi's, even REALLY good ones, just aren't well trained on bf'ing issues. I'd look for support/suggestions/resources from people who have seen and/experienced them, and will work within your wishes to help you solve them.
Good luck. This stuff is so hard, and even more so when you are super sleep deprived.
Does he nurse any better when he's half asleep? DS used to pop off and on but he ending up having an undiagnosed lip and tongue tie. Have you checked to make sure the revision is still okay? I know sometimes it can reattach. The dentist that released DS's ties said that some children need additional therapy after the release.
Both of my kids were super gassy and Mommy's Bliss gripe water seemed to help more than any other OTC remedies
Overall it sounds like he's getting a decent amount of milk and having enough wet diapers so you are doing a great job.
How did you feel about the LC who diagnosed the lip/tongue tie? Do you think she could give you anymore useful information? What about LLL?
I feel like most pedi's, even REALLY good ones, just aren't well trained on bf'ing issues. I'd look for support/suggestions/resources from people who have seen and/experienced them, and will work within your wishes to help you solve them.
Good luck. This stuff is so hard, and even more so when you are super sleep deprived.
The LC who diagnosed the ties basically did so because I was like, "I think he has a tongue tie" and she confirmed. She's great but pretty inexperienced, unfortunately, and she missed the ties until I brought it up weeks later.
Post by noodleskooze on Apr 27, 2015 9:58:31 GMT -5
I get the need to try everything you can to nurse, I do.
Just reminding you that you can switch to formula at any time, and no one will think any less of you and P will be just fine if you do or if you don't. It took far longer than it should have for me to decide to switch--in retrospect, I regret missing out on a good newborn relationship because I cared so much about trying to get him breastmilk. I needed someone else to tell me that it was okay to go to formula. I'm giving you permission if you need it.
The thing with dairy intolerance is that every baby reacts differently.
DD: fussy, gassy, congestion, "baby acne" that didn't improve, projectile vomiting, some bad poops after at a few weeks old.
DS: watery poops from day 1, fussy, gassy, bad "baby acne". No spit up, no congestion.
Neither of my kids ever had blood and maybe a tiny bit of mucous.
Hugs! I know this is so so hard!!!
With my son I tried elimination diets and he didn't improve 100% so I did a trial of Nutramigen while still pumping and cutting things out but he did well on the Nutramigen so I switched him after a week. I still don't know why he didn't do better with my diet changes but it was clear something was bothering him.
DD did have dairy issues which were subtle at first but by 11 or 12 weeks there was frank blood in her diaper. With DS I just cut it out ahead of time because I thought every gassy episode would end up being a mindfuck. I know Kellymom says other food related things don't affect BFing baby, blah blah blah but I swear on everything dear to me that DS had (and still has) issues when I eat an appreciable amount of chocolate.
I will also be honest and say that switching to formula was really hard for me. I was very emotional. I still get sad about it (he's 8 months) because I nursed DD for 2 years. So be prepared for that. BUT seeing the difference in his happiness made it better. Big hugs!
I don't know what to say. You make enough quality milk. He has no signs of an intolerance. He transfers milk ok. He's on reflux meds. It doesn't make sense.
Please make an appointment with the pedi. It's what they're there for.
I hope feedings get better for your son soon, you are a awesome mom! I can only imagine how frustrating it is to not know exactly what is causing him discomfort. I would definitely reach out to either your H's aunt for guidance or take him in to his pediatrician. If something in your gut says something is wrong, you owe yourself to at least check and see if there is anything else you can do to make him more comfortable.
DD did have dairy issues which were subtle at first but by 11 or 12 weeks there was frank blood in her diaper. With DS I just cut it out ahead of time because I thought every gassy episode would end up being a mindfuck. I know Kellymom says other food related things don't affect BFing baby, blah blah blah but I swear on everything dear to me that DS had (and still has) issues when I eat an appreciable amount of chocolate.
Yes my DDs symptoms got progressively worse until after 4 episodes of violent projectile vomiting I cut dairy (around 8 weeks) I'm sure if I would have waited bloody poop would have started.
And I was able to recognize DSs symptoms a lot sooner because of her. I still am mad at myself that I didn't cut it all out before he was born but whatever, no way to know if that have changed anything.
Post by Velar Fricative on Apr 27, 2015 10:07:50 GMT -5
My sister recently switched to EFFing (with the $$$ prescription formula) my four-month-old nephew because he suddenly had blood in his poop and the doctor discovered that he has multiple allergies and my sister would have had to cut out, well, everything but pretty much chicken and vegetables (the allergy list was that long), which she didn't want to do. As severe as his allergies were, he's four months old and the blood was a relatively recent development. So while his poop looks normal now, I think it might be worth it for him to get tested for any allergies that could be rectified with you making some dietary restrictions. Given the similar problems with bottle-feeding, my mind does go to something related to your diet.
I'm sorry. This sounds so hard. You're doing an awesome job and I hope you get some answers soon.
Reading through your list with an outside view, the common denominator seems to be the milk. He's transferring milk ok, and he's having similar struggles whether he's at the breast or at the bottle. So, I think the two options to try are cutting things out of your diet (dairy? caffeine?), or trying formula for a decent amount of time to let whatever could be bothering him get out of your system and his. If you try the formula, you could continue pumping so that all of your options are open once you have more information.
That being said, I know that I've seen articles, etc... talking about how the number of babies with actual intolerances is far lower than the number of mothers on elimination diets to try to make a nursing relationship work. Some things work out with time, I think. But, you also have to stay sane and you know your threshold. With DD, the idea that I might have to cut dairy or whatever out of my diet was so overwhelming, on top of everything else I was dealing with (I never ended up having to do it). Honestly, my entire breast feeding experience wasn't great for me, because I couldn't take the uncertainty of how much milk she was getting, if something I was eating bothered her, etc... The pressure really weighed on me, though it ebbed and flowed.
If you think something more is wrong, don't hesitate to call the pedi. I'm sure they'd rather you call and they find nothing wrong, than not call and something gets missed. Hang in there - you're doing so great, and I know this is so difficult.
The thing that stands out to me is that some issues are the same regardless of whether it's BF or bottle. To me that points to a possible sensitivity to something you're eating/drinking, so it may be worth a try to try eliminating things to see if that makes a difference. I'm not an expert on what likely foods are or for how long you need to avoid them, but aome things that seemed to bother DS when I had them (although poop was always normal, he would just seem fussier/gassier) were:
- canned foods, particularly tomatoes - beans
The nighttime BF sounds like such a struggle, I'd be tempted to just bottle feed (or have your DH bottle feed) and then pump for those feedings. I know it sounds counterintuitive since you're right there, but that's what I did for the first four weeks when DS wouldn't latch, and trying to feed him was just a nightmare of crying and frustration. I can tell you that once he starting latching things just smoothed right out; I have no idea if he had any real issues, but it seemed to me once he was a bit older nursing just seemed "easier" for him somehow.
Sending you hugs, because I know this is so so hard. Also sending positive thoughts that things work themselves out with a bit of time and experimentation.
Big hugs! Since you say that he has many of the same problems with bottle feeding, I might consider trying two things (separately). One, try different nipples (different flow rate and/or different brand/shape). Since you know he's had latch issues, there might be a shape out there that works better for him. If he gets better at bottle feeding with a different shape, maybe it will strengthen his suck and improve the breastfeeding? Two, try formula, especially if you can get samples of sensitive or soy-based formula to try to see if there could be an intolerance contributing to his problems. If that helps identify it, then you can change up your diet to see if you can make your milk more palatable. (Personally I'm not sure I'd survive a dairy-free diet, so especially since you're not seeing signs of dairy intolerance it would be a last resort for me.)
Post by jeaniebueller on Apr 27, 2015 10:12:21 GMT -5
Hugs to you. I hope you get answers, I would make a ped appointment and discuss your concerns, especially if your LO is bordering on FTT. I would also experiment with offering formula just to see if that makes any sort of difference with the discomfort, etc.
I would try cutting out dairy and see if that helps. When I did, I saw a pretty marked difference within just a couple of days.
Also, has an LC confirmed that the tongue tie lasering completely worked? We ended up having to get DS' revised twice b/c the first one didn't go back far enough. I'd have it checked (if you haven't already) just to be sure.
Also, has an LC confirmed that the tongue tie lasering completely worked? We ended up having to get DS' revised twice b/c the first one didn't go back far enough. I'd have it checked (if you haven't already) just to be sure.
Honestly, I don't know if the LCs know enough about TTs to determine that. He did have a follow-up at the dentist last week, and he massaged out some scar tissue that was developing already.
Since it seems that the issues are there whether bottle or breast it seems something else is at play. Some ideas:
The tongue tie revision hurts or its painful for him to use it the "correct" way now.
Diet issue?
This may sound weird but what would happen if you cup, spoon, or syringe fed him? Maybe you could try that for a feeding. To see if he has issues with the actual milk or with his tongue working at a bottle/breast.
I know how frustrating it can be to have a baby not gain weight. All 3 of mine have had a ftt diagnoses at some point due to dropping % so much. It sucked. For us, part of it was food allergies and part of it was just my kids genetics.
Eta: I also just wabt to say trust your gut. I can't tell you how many times I have pushed with the kids because I knew something was wrong and ended up being riht. With J it was the allergies and initial testing. They said no because we had no history and blood wasn't visible etc. I was right. Again, the girls allergies. They have FPIES to certain foods so it doesn't show up on traditional testing But I knew something was wrong. There are other times too. A mother knows her child.
I'm so sorry. I would discuss this with the pedi to see if they have any other ideas or maybe to test his stool for any intolerances. A change in diet (caffeine maybe?) would be my only suggestion.
How does he act at DCP? I know you said he has many of the same issues - do you mean inconsolable crying, and is it only when he's eating?
So many hugs.
At DC he's had good days and bad days. He tends to sleep a lot. One day last week, they did say he cried a lot. His main teacher is gone by the time I pick him up so it's sometimes hard to get a full report.
Post by water*drop on Apr 27, 2015 10:19:08 GMT -5
Hugs. Has he seen a specialist about the reflux to make sure that the meds are controlling it completely? A lot of that sounds like how DD was before we had the reflux entirely under control. Have you tried different bottle nipples? Maybe if he's having trouble with the act of sucking itself (and it sounds like maybe he is if he's struggling with a bottle, too), a different shape/texture of nipple would help?
I'm so sorry that you're going through this. I would definitely call the pedi if your gut says something is wrong. Maybe take a couple of videos in with you so the doctor can see exactly what you mean when you say that he's fussing or having trouble coordinating sucking and swallowing and breathing.