Post by amynumbers on May 22, 2015 19:33:25 GMT -5
Nope. All "sins" aren't created equal. If buying into God means that someone while stole $50 and someone who molestrd his sisters can both have their slated wiped clean with the same ease, I'm not interested.
I judge the shit out of any idiot who would marry and have children with someone who admits to child molestation. I just can't.
But how much say do we think she really had in the union? Her parents on the other hand? If they knew he was a child molester and married her off to him anyway...disgusting. All the parents in this whole debacle - that's who gets my rage.
But no one ONLY does good works. Everyone does wrong things.
This is totally messed up behavior and of course should NOT continue or be excused. The Bible never gives a free pass to keep on making terrible choices. People who love God are to strive to be like Him...this clearly falls short of that. But we all fall short. Most people would say they are doing better than this guy's choices...but we've still all screwed up.
Our choices aren't without consequences and in Hebrews it says to keep on making bad choices and assuming God will forgive you just because you say you believe in Him is really rejecting Him. Truly being repentant and seeking Him is very different that just saying some words or doing a dance or whatever you think it is you have to do, and then turning around and doing wtf you wanna do cause "hey I'm covered." But we will all make mistakes through our lives and there is no limit to Gods forgiveness for those who truly want to honor Him.
I don't know these people or their hearts or decisions, my point is just that Christians can suck just as much ...if not more...than others...but it's not us who are perfect, it's the God we love who is perfect.
I mean...it sounds hard to believe that it's that easy but it's also very freeing to know all you have to do is accept that He loves us enough to die in our place for all our crap choices.
Have you read the details? This is more than just a "mistake" or "bad choices". You have a daughter, how are you not outraged? The Duggars are hiding behind their religion and prayer.
But I would not marry and have a children with a child molester even if you put a gun to my head. His wife called it a teenage mistake and she continued to have children with him. I judge.
NOT normal teenage behavior...despicable behavior... and I also side eye his wife and her parents. I have not read the details. I'm not sure someone can't change from that though and the girls didn't seem to want to brought back up so I'm sorry for them (that could be from the parents though??)
NOT normal teenage behavior...despicable behavior... and I also side eye his wife and her parents. I have not read the details. I'm not sure someone can't change from that though and the girls didn't seem to want to brought back up so I'm sorry for them (that could be from the parents though??)
Sing, I'm not sure what exactly you feel like you need to defend or explain, unless its that not all Christians are bad (and I don't think anyone here is saying that). Please be cautious with your words because right now it feels like you are defending or "explaing away" the fact that as a 13 or 14 yr old he repeatedly touched the breasts and genitals of 5 different girls, including 4 of his sisters who were 12, 10, 8, and 4 years old at the time. Some while they were aaleep. When his sisters told their parents he got a stern talking to and was briefly sent to work with some dude building houses. No counseling, no repercussions, NO PROTECTION FOR THE FOUR YEAR OLD.
people are saying its not a big deal because he prayed for forgiveness. FUCK THAT. HE TOUCHED HIS FOUR YEAR OLD SISTERS GENITALS. this is not a "teenage mistake" a mistake is getting caught smoking pot behind the gym, or having a playboy mag under your bed. Not molesting a family friend while she sleeps on the couch.
Also his confession was bullshit. He says nothing about being sorry to his victims, he said he stopped because he didn't want to ruin his life. HIS life.
NOT normal teenage behavior...despicable behavior... and I also side eye his wife and her parents. I have not read the details. I'm not sure someone can't change from that though and the girls didn't seem to want to brought back up so I'm sorry for them (that could be from the parents though??)
Sing, I'm not sure what exactly you feel like you need to defend or explain, unless its that not all Christians are bad (and I don't think anyone here is saying that). Please be cautious with your words because right now it feels like you are defending or "explaing away" the fact that as a 13 or 14 yr old he repeatedly touched the breasts and genitals of 5 different girls, including 4 of his sisters who were 12, 10, 8, and 4 years old at the time. Some while they were aaleep. When his sisters told their parents he got a stern talking to and was briefly sent to work with some dude building houses. No counseling, no repercussions, NO PROTECTION FOR THE FOUR YEAR OLD.
people are saying its not a big deal because he prayed for forgiveness. FUCK THAT. HE TOUCHED HIS FOUR YEAR OLD SISTERS GENITALS. this is not a "teenage mistake" a mistake is getting caught smoking pot behind the gym, or having a playboy mag under your bed. Not molesting a family friend while she sleeps on the couch.
Post by andrewsgal on May 27, 2015 17:35:39 GMT -5
Sing I think you are amazing and often admire your faith. The fact that you are defending this POS is beyond me and the kind of stuff that drives people away from churches.
Post by andrewsgal on May 27, 2015 20:11:51 GMT -5
I guess I also don't understand how you say he is a good christian I mean besides the fact that he preaches hate. Which is absolutely not christian. He continued for years to throw stones from his glass house.
It really is sad. It's very unfortunate to have it dredged back up (for the sake of the girls I mean). I'm not excusing his behavior by any.means.
But I can't say it discredits their beliefs or their ministry because Christians are at heart, evil people who have chosen to accept Gods forgiveness for all manner of evil. He apologized and those involved say it's been dealt with and forgiven. (Now before you flame me to high heaven, i can't say I'm sure that those girls have been as well supported or counseled as they should have been. I'm frankly kind of worried for them). I'm just not sure it's doing anyone any good to dredge this back up? Of course they aren't perfect...no one is. It shouldn't be a surprise that there's yucky stuff in their past (again, this is NOT ok, and should have been handled differently back then IMO).
The Bible is full of people who made TERRIBLE choices, adulterers and murderers, liars and thieves...all people God loved. Not because of what they did, but because He chooses to. Believing in Him and serving Him doesn't mean you won't screw up (even terribly), but He will forgive us if we ask.
It says something that he was upfront and repentant about it (not trying to hide it or brush it off)...but again, I worry for those girls on many levels and really do hope they are ok. Just very sad all around.
It absolutely discredits THEIR beliefs, because the entire situation reeks of hypocrisy, in addition to the lying and cover ups. And while their "faith" preaches forgiveness from God, that's not what this is about. The bible also says give unto God what is God's and give unto Ceasar that which is Ceaser's. A commonly quoted passaged taught as a metaphor. In this case "ceasar's" is the punishment for the non-religious crime. Yeah, God will forgive him, but he still committed a crime against "the state" and should have to pay for that. The Duggar's actions in the case blatantly go against that bible passage as they did not handle the "ceasarian" aspects of it as needed PER THEIR OWN BIBLE.
My beliefs? Not discredited. Your beliefs? Not discredited. But theirs? ABSOLUTELY discredited by hypocrisy and their cherry picking of which aspects of God's law they choose to follow.
I'm choosing to read this as you defending your faith, not Josh's actions.
Post by amynumbers on May 27, 2015 20:53:11 GMT -5
I am siding eying anyone referring to Duggar related nonsense as Christianity. It's a hate filled cult.
This isn't good people doing a bad thing. This is lots of bad people doing a series of bad things, both as part of their cult and as "sins" against their supposed religion.
I am totally cool saying that if someone thinks this is on par with another sin nd that "good people do bad things" that is all the proof I need to know religion is bullshit. Sorry, I have no interest in a God that allows people to play these games when he supposedly can change it. I have no interest in earning the forgiveness of a dude who thinks this shit is the same as stealing a fucking candy bar.
My point was people shouldn't be surprised when Christians F up. I think most Christians try to follow God and do the right thing and all that...but lots of people do the right thing. Christians are just everyday (and even terrible) people who accept Gods forgiveness. It's not a pass to do crap...because God is not fooled by false apologies. He knows what is really in someone's heart if they truly want His forgiveness.
Everyone has been on.edge. waiting for the epic screw up this family would have (and with 19 kids someone WAS bound to screw up). I initially thought it wasn't really on the parents to have one kid so epically fail, but I do think they screwed up in handling it. Just saying Im not sure you can discount the whole family because of this one terrible thing though. Almost every hero in the Bible has a terrible past, and God could still use it for good.
Many people posting here don't really believe or care what or even if God does something with this...they are just so happy to see them burn. I don't think it's fair to the girls and I'm not convinced people can't change.
I think his actions are inexcusable and he and the girls need PROPER counseling...I just don't understand the glee of watching someone who professes faith go up in flames. All of us who claim to be Christians will screw up.
(I get it. This is more than an oopsie. It really is,) I think this is completely wrong and should have been dealt with better.
It makes me sad for the girls (who say they have forgiven and are moving on...as much as one can), and it's sad that everyone is so happy to see them ruined. No one is perfect, no one is doing it all right.
At what level of terribleness does someone's faith become discredited? At what level of repentance and repayment can their faith or ministry be re-credited? Because every one of us will mess up...and maybe people think their thing isn't "bad enough" ...their transgressions are minor so it's ok. I'm doing better than the christian.
But Christianity isn't about doing better, it's about taking the GRACE offered us. It doesn't destroy someone's ministry professing Gods forgiveness if they ROYALLY mess up and then truly are sorry and seek His forgiveness...because we are imperfect...we just believe and trust in the love of a God who is perfect.
It's all a "moo point" if you don't want to believe in a God who forgives. The world can't be surprised when Christians fail. But they shouldn't be surprised when Christians try again, moving forward in grace. Their whole existence as a God-fearing family is not necessarily forever demolished by one person's horrific acts.
I'm not defending his actions. I think the consequences were nonexistent!? and the follow up for the girls sounds severely lacking. It's not what I would choose. But if the knowledge that God can and does forgive and change people who do terrible things offends and pushes people away, so be it...because I believe that's exactly why Jesus came. He came for all the worst people...to seek us out, to save us, to forgive us and to love us.
Post by amynumbers on May 27, 2015 21:10:05 GMT -5
Um, I can discount the entire family because they are bigoted sacks of shits. Who beat their children.
I am so over this tip toeing around it. These are people who think the gay people I love might molest their children. Michele made robo calls about it. They are horrible hateful people, and no I am not surprised people with hateful beliefs do horrible things.
It really is sad. It's very unfortunate to have it dredged back up (for the sake of the girls I mean). I'm not excusing his behavior by any.means.
But I can't say it discredits their beliefs or their ministry because Christians are at heart, evil people who have chosen to accept Gods forgiveness for all manner of evil. He apologized and those involved say it's been dealt with and forgiven. (Now before you flame me to high heaven, i can't say I'm sure that those girls have been as well supported or counseled as they should have been. I'm frankly kind of worried for them). I'm just not sure it's doing anyone any good to dredge this back up? Of course they aren't perfect...no one is. It shouldn't be a surprise that there's yucky stuff in their past (again, this is NOT ok, and should have been handled differently back then IMO).
The Bible is full of people who made TERRIBLE choices, adulterers and murderers, liars and thieves...all people God loved. Not because of what they did, but because He chooses to. Believing in Him and serving Him doesn't mean you won't screw up (even terribly), but He will forgive us if we ask.
It says something that he was upfront and repentant about it (not trying to hide it or brush it off)...but again, I worry for those girls on many levels and really do hope they are ok. Just very sad all around.
It absolutely discredits THEIR beliefs, because the entire situation reeks of hypocrisy, in addition to the lying and cover ups. And while their "faith" preaches forgiveness from God, that's not what this is about. The bible also says give unto God what is God's and give unto Ceasar that which is Ceaser's. A commonly quoted passaged taught as a metaphor. In this case "ceasar's" is the punishment for the non-religious crime. Yeah, God will forgive him, but he still committed a crime against "the state" and should have to pay for that. The Duggar's actions in the case blatantly go against that bible passage as they did not handle the "ceasarian" aspects of it as needed PER THEIR OWN BIBLE.Â
My beliefs? Not discredited. Your beliefs? Not discredited. But theirs? ABSOLUTELY discredited by hypocrisy and their cherry picking of which aspects of God's law they choose to follow.Â
I'm choosing to read this as you defending your faith, not Josh's actions.Â
I believe the Caesar/God thing is actually about paying taxes...but I do agree there should have been consequences. Absolutely.
They may have been covering it up...or not bringing up for the girls' sake. They may have modified some of their extreme rules because of it. Maybe they talk about this extreme level of purity (side hugs, chaperones etc) BECAUSE of the horrible things that happened in their family.
How long are they discredited for? Moses was a murderer. David was an adulterer AND murderer, Paul was delighted at Christians being murdered...how long is someone discredited for?
Are our faiths only credible until we totally f up?
It absolutely discredits THEIR beliefs, because the entire situation reeks of hypocrisy, in addition to the lying and cover ups. And while their "faith" preaches forgiveness from God, that's not what this is about. The bible also says give unto God what is God's and give unto Ceasar that which is Ceaser's. A commonly quoted passaged taught as a metaphor. In this case "ceasar's" is the punishment for the non-religious crime. Yeah, God will forgive him, but he still committed a crime against "the state" and should have to pay for that. The Duggar's actions in the case blatantly go against that bible passage as they did not handle the "ceasarian" aspects of it as needed PER THEIR OWN BIBLE.Â
My beliefs? Not discredited. Your beliefs? Not discredited. But theirs? ABSOLUTELY discredited by hypocrisy and their cherry picking of which aspects of God's law they choose to follow.Â
I'm choosing to read this as you defending your faith, not Josh's actions.Â
I believe the Caesar/God thing is actually about paying taxes...but I do agree there should have been consequences. Absolutely.
They may have been covering it up...or not bringing up for the girls' sake. They may have modified some of their extreme rules because of it. Maybe they talk about this extreme level of purity (side hugs, chaperones etc) BECAUSE of the horrible things that happened in their family.
How long are they discredited for? Moses was a murderer. David was an adulterer AND murderer, Paul was delighted at Christians being murdered...how long is someone discredited for?
Are our faiths only credible until we totally f up?
well of course it's about taxes. But punishment for a crime is another tax. It's a metaphor for reconciling civil obedience with faith. It applies to more than 10% of your income going to the state. Honestly.
And their "faith" is permanently discredited. Because it's not a true faith it's a hate preaching cult.
Are our faiths only credible until we totally f up?
If you're preaching to others while actively covering up your fuck up, then yes.
Should all fuck ups be publicly proclaimed before anyone gives advice or preaches ...or maybe you speak from what you've learned? I wonder if the younger kids even knew about this until now...all the ones who weren't born yet when this happened. Are they discredited?
They didn't burn the police report...it's there? It's just not also something you go around proclaiming...maybe instead they've talked about having a pure mind and boys guarding their eyes and hearts. Maybe they've used that experience to change things in their family and their preaching without repeatedly bringing up what happened to the girls?
If you're preaching to others while actively covering up your fuck up, then yes.
Should all fuck ups be publicly proclaimed before anyone gives advice or preaches ...or maybe you speak from what you've learned? I wonder if the younger kids even knew about this until now...all the ones who weren't born yet when this happened. Are they discredited?
They didn't burn the police report...it's there? It's just not also something you go around proclaiming...maybe instead they've talked about having a pure mind and boys guarding their eyes and hearts. Maybe they've used that experience to change things in their family and their preaching without repeatedly bringing up what happened to the girls?
no. You can't excuse this. They willfully and intentionally misled people, hid a crime against minors for over a year and when they did "deal" with it took it to a "friend" who was unlikely to see anything done with it. They lied about counseling and placed one child's value over another.
Stop defending the actions. Forgiveness is not ours to give but his victims and God's. You've always been a respected poster here but now you are burrowing into a place you will not return from if you continue in this vein.
I believe the Caesar/God thing is actually about paying taxes...but I do agree there should have been consequences. Absolutely.
They may have been covering it up...or not bringing up for the girls' sake. They may have modified some of their extreme rules because of it. Maybe they talk about this extreme level of purity (side hugs, chaperones etc) BECAUSE of the horrible things that happened in their family.
How long are they discredited for? Moses was a murderer. David was an adulterer AND murderer, Paul was delighted at Christians being murdered...how long is someone discredited for?
Are our faiths only credible until we totally f up?
well of course it's about taxes. But punishment for a crime is another tax. It's a metaphor for reconciling civil obedience with faith. It applies to more than 10% of your income going to the state. Honestly.
And their "faith" is permanently discredited. Because it's not a true faith it's a hate preaching cult.
Also, this is what I mean by "all sins are not equal". Molesting your sister, and then making a career out of lobbying against the civil rights of gay people -- and part of your argument being that they will molest children -- is the point of no return. Josh Duggar and his shit head parents have hit the point of no return.
And honestly no just God would expect people to forgive that.
If you're preaching to others while actively covering up your fuck up, then yes.
I'd also add that maybe the fact that so many religious figures have done such horrible things could be telling.
It's not just religious people. It's all people. We are all fuck ups. Every family. That's the point. We are all fuck ups. If you want to believe yours aren't as bad as others, so be it. In my own hierarchy, I'm not as "bad" as other people, but it doesn't really matter, because I'm not the judge.
I know you dislike them, and honestly I'm not even really "pro" them. I'm just defending the notion that people can be huge fuck ups, be forgiven and not be worthless the rest of their lives.
I'd also add that maybe the fact that so many religious figures have done such horrible things could be telling.
It's not just religious people. It's all people. We are all fuck ups. Every family. That's the point. We are all fuck ups. If you want to believe yours aren't as bad as others, so be it. In my own hierarchy, I'm not as "bad" as other people, but it doesn't really matter, because I'm not the judge.
I know you dislike them, and honestly I'm not even really "pro" them. I'm just defending the notion that people can be huge fuck ups, be forgiven and not be worthless the rest of their lives.
The great thing about not being bound to a religion is that you can look at fact and call it like it is.
I and my family are infinitely better than the Duggars. I can judge that.
Also no they don't get to be held up as a family of Christian values. He molested they covered it up and lied. Nothing about that is Christian. I don't care if God forgives him. I don't care if they still consider themselves strong Christians. They don't get to be some poster family for Christian values.
Sing please take a step back and think about this. Young people are leaving the church faster than they are coming in.
They see hypocrisy and hate as a Christian value and don't want any part in that. Jim Bob was preaching than those who rape or take part in incest should be killed all the while hiding a molester in their family. Michelle made a call stating that transgendered people were perverts and going to hurt our children. While letting this man still have a lot of contact with her own daughters he molested.
They can ask for forgiveness all they want. They are not strong Christians not even close.
well of course it's about taxes. But punishment for a crime is another tax. It's a metaphor for reconciling civil obedience with faith. It applies to more than 10% of your income going to the state. Honestly.
And their "faith" is permanently discredited. Because it's not a true faith it's a hate preaching cult.
Also, this is what I mean by "all sins are not equal". Molesting your sister, and then making a career out of lobbying against the civil rights of gay people -- and part of your argument being that they will molest children -- is the point of no return. Josh Duggar and his shit head parents have hit the point of no return.
And honestly no just God would expect people to forgive that.
I read something in a blog the other day that I think explains the "all sins are equal" thing well.
"I get that all sin, no matter what, comes between us and God. In that way, it is equal.
But telling a white lie that you were on time (when you were really 15 minutes late) -- and sexually victimizing multiple children over a long period of time -- do not require the same consequences. There are natural consequences that really SHOULD happen in one case over the other.
That is why we need to call it a crime. And not just a sin. Because it is both. And because the consequences for a white-lie-kind-of sin is not the same as for a felony-kind-of sin."