Boy Scouts leader says ban on gay troop leaders need to go

[zoegirltx]

hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_BOY_SCOUTS_GAYS?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT


NEW YORK (AP) -- The president of the Boy Scouts of America, Robert Gates, said Thursday that the organization's longstanding ban on participation by openly gay adults is no longer sustainable and called for change in order to prevent "the end of us as a national movement."



In a speech in Atlanta to the Scouts' national annual meeting, Gates referred to recent moves by Scout councils in New York City and elsewhere to defy the ban.



"The status quo in our movement's membership standards cannot be sustained," he said.



Gates said no change in the policy would be made at the national meeting. But he raised the possibility of revising the policy at some point soon so that local Scout organizations could decide on their own whether to allow gays as adult volunteers and paid staff.



In 2013, after bitter internal debate, the BSA decided to allow openly gay youth as scouts, but not gay adults as leaders. The change took effect in January 2014.



Gates, who became the BSA's president in May 2014, said at the time that he personally would have favored ending the ban on gay adults, but he opposed any further debate after the Scouts' policymaking body upheld the ban.



On Thursday, however, he said recent events "have confronted us with urgent challenges I did not foresee and which we cannot ignore."



He cited the recent defiant announcement by the BSA's New York City chapter in early April that it had hired the nation's first openly gay Eagle Scout as a summer camp leader. He also cited broader developments related to gay rights.



"I remind you of the recent debates we have seen in places like Indiana and Arkansas over discrimination based on sexual orientation, not to mention the impending U.S. Supreme Court decision this summer on gay marriage," he said. "We must deal with the world as it is, not as we might wish it to be."



Gates said the BSA technically had the power to revoke the charters of councils that defied the ban on gay adults, but said this would be harmful to boys in those regions



He also noted that many states have passed laws prohibiting employment discrimination based on sexual orientation, raising the possibility of extensive legal battles.



"Thus, between internal challenges and potential legal conflicts, the BSA finds itself in an unsustainable position, a position that makes us vulnerable to the possibility the courts simply will order us at some point to change our membership policy," Gates said.



He expressed concern that an eventual court order might also strike down the BSA's policy of banning atheists.



"Waiting for the courts is a gamble with huge stakes," he said. "Alternatively, we can move at some future date - but sooner rather than later - to seize control of our own future, set our own course and change our policy in order to allow charter partners - unit sponsoring organizations - to determine the standards for their Scout leaders."



Such an approach, he said, would allow churches, which sponsor about 70 percent of Scout units, to establish leadership standards consistent with their faith.



"I truly fear that any other alternative will be the end of us as a national movement," he said.



But some churches may be alienated nonetheless. Some Southern Baptist churches stopped sponsoring troops after gay scouts were allowed, and letting in gay adults will likely prompt even more departures, said Southern Evangelical Seminary President Richard Land, who formerly led the Southern Baptist Convention's Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission.



To him, Scouts shouldn't have leaders who are sexually attracted to their gender, whether a heterosexual man leading Girl Scouts or a gay man supervising boys, no matter objections that leaders of any sexuality shouldn't be assumed to be potential pedophiles.



"This seems to me to be sound judgment 101," he said, calling Gates' message a display of "political correctness."



The Utah-based Mormon church is the nation's largest sponsor of Boy Scout units, and in the past has supported the ban on participation by openly gay adults.



In a brief statement Thursday, the church said it would examine any policy changes "very carefully to assess how they might impact our own century-long association with the BSA."



The Human Rights Campaign, the largest U.S. gay-rights group, called Gates' speech "a step in the right direction."



"But, as we have said many times previously, half measures are unacceptable, especially at one of America's most storied institutions," said the campaign's president, Chad Griffin. "It's time for BSA leaders to show true leadership and embrace a full national policy of inclusion."



Until Thursday, there had been no indication how the BSA would respond to the New York Councils, which on April 2 announced the hiring of Pascal Tessier, an 18-year-old Eagle Scout. Tessier, currently finishing his freshman year of college, has been a vocal advocate of opening the 105-year-old organization to gay scouts and leaders.



Tessier had been getting legal advice from prominent lawyer David Boies, whose recent causes include arguing for recognition of same-sex marriage. Boies said it was possible that Tessier's hiring could lead to litigation between the New York chapter and the BSA's national headquarters, but he expressed hope this could be avoided.



After Tessier's hire, New York Attorney General Eric Schneiderman's office opened an inquiry into the BSA's membership policies and influence over local councils' hiring decisions. The office, which cited state laws against hiring discrimination based on sexual orientation, was reviewing Gates' remarks Thursday.



One of Tessier's lawyers, Josh Schiller, expressed hope that the BSA's ban would be lifted.



"People will join the Boy Scouts and look at them as an organization that has the principles of equality," he said.



Debate over the BSA policy has coincided with a steady drop in the organization's youth membership, which fell 7.4 percent last year to about 2.4 million.



After the 2013 decision to admit gay youth, some conservatives split from the BSA to form a new group, Trail Life USA, which has created its own ranks, badges and uniforms. The group claims a membership of 23,000 youths and adults.



Trail Life's chairman, John Stemberger, said his organization was "saddened" by Gates' speech.



"It is tragic that the BSA is willing to risk the safety and security of its boys because of peer pressure from activists groups," he said. "Trail Life USA remains committed to timeless Christian values."



---

[zoegirltx]

May 22, 2015 5:56:34 GMT -5 zoegirltx said:

"It is tragic that the BSA is willing to risk the safety and security of its boys because of peer pressure from activists groups," he said. "Trail Life USA remains committed to timeless Christian values."



---

Cause gay people are an inherent risk to boys?  And bigotry is a Christian value?

[secretlyevil]

OTOH, the GS are in the news for this.

m.mic.com/articles/118906/the-girl-scouts-new-trans-inclusive-policy-proves-its-most-feminist-move-yet?fb_action_ids=863282113738368&fb_action_types=og.shares&fb_source=other_multiline&action_object_map=%5B1076485089033196%5D&action_type_map=%5B%22og.shares%22%5D&action_ref_map=%5B%5D

It's a step BSA but it's not enough.

[KateAggie]

I love Robert Gates. Love him.

If you haven't read his book, I highly recommend. He isn't one to rush change...he seems to have a good grasp on how to work within the politics of an organization to bring about change in measured fashion. He is the perfect person to get BSA on track to be a welcoming organization.

(I haven't had my coffee yet. So those aren't quite the words I'm looking for, but hopefully y'all get the gist!)

[blink]

The BSA doesn't allow atheists. I didn't realize that.

Anywho, this is a good sign even if it is small. It is still depressing that some people think being attracted to one gender means everyone of that gender to create a fear of pedophilia. Hopefully, when nothing bad happens with NYC Eagle Scout's camp leader opinions will start changing.

[wawa]

May 22, 2015 7:08:39 GMT -5 blink said:

The BSA doesn't allow atheists. I didn't realize that.

Anywho, this is a good sign even if it is small. It is still depressing that some people think being attracted to one gender means everyone of that gender to create a fear of pedophilia. Hopefully, when nothing bad happens with NYC Eagle Scout's camp leader opinions will start changing.

According to MH it's not like...a for real for real ban and just like gay scouts until they took that back depends on local leadership.  He got asked about his faith at his eagle....uhhh...thingy?  Where they interview you on boyscouty questions?  (somebody knows what i'm talking about here, right?  auntie ?) and his answers were basically like, "yeah, I don't so much have one."  It had never come up before that.  The old dude who asked that question seemed rather taken aback and had some followups that I personally would have found offensive, but just made MH roll his eyes.  (But how do you have MORALS!?  How do you connect to your community?!)  He still got his eagle.

So...yeah.  It's a thing.  They're a ridiculous organization at the national level and they have approx. 6 years to get their fucking act together or else I'm going to have to put my foot down, and Sizzli will not be a scout.  Despite that fact that his daddy, his uncle, his grand daddy, and a wide assortment of his great uncles are all eagle scouts.  My BIL is in his late 20's and my MIL only recently stopped being involved in his troop.  This will be kind of a big deal if we don't do scouts, but I'm not enrolling my kid in an activity that would ban one of his grandmothers from participation.  Also though I'm not an atheist, we're not going to raise the kids with any sort of defined faith, so...yeah.  That too.  This gives me hope.  I will be very curious to see how the church reaction plays out though.  I know our local troop is sponsored by the Baptist church.

[ESF]

May 22, 2015 5:57:39 GMT -5 zoegirltx said:

May 22, 2015 5:56:34 GMT -5 zoegirltx said:

"It is tragic that the BSA is willing to risk the safety and security of its boys because of peer pressure from activists groups," he said. "Trail Life USA remains committed to timeless Christian values."



---

Cause gay people are an inherent risk to boys?  And bigotry is a Christian value?

I just cannot with anybody who thinks Cam and Mitchell are scarier than Jim Bob.

[orval]

My ds does cub scouts and it is a faith based organization. Packs have a charter organization which is a church - I don't know of any in our area that are not a church. Ours is based at a Catholic church and there are plenty of our scouts that are not Catholic. We do say a prayer before meals, but that is about the extent of the religious-ness.
We have core values that are discussed each meeting but they are more like citizenship and responsibility.

[penguingrrl]

H and I were just discussing this. H is an Eagle Scout and in his troop religion and homosexuality never once came up. Although he was raised Catholic so it may very well be that he never noticed it if that makes sense. The troop in our town met at the public school, so I think it wasn't sponsored by a church or religious in nature. I know people who are involved now and all are fairly socially progressive and inclusive, so I think that at our local level it's a welcoming and inclusive group. Several scouts H grew up with came out in college and at least one is involved at the local level and is openly gay.

This is still too little for us to allow Drew to join, but we also see it as a positive step towards allowing him to join. H and I were both scouts, our girls are scouts (yay for the inclusiveness of Girl Scouts!), so it will be very weird for us if Drew isn't, especially since there aren't alternatives in our area that we have found. But until and unless they become a truly inclusive organization he won't be involved.

[aurora]

May 22, 2015 5:57:39 GMT -5 zoegirltx said:

May 22, 2015 5:56:34 GMT -5 zoegirltx said:

"It is tragic that the BSA is willing to risk the safety and security of its boys because of peer pressure from activists groups," he said. "Trail Life USA remains committed to timeless Christian values."



---

Cause gay people are an inherent risk to boys?  And bigotry is a Christian value?

I think it's more likely that the people who really believe homosexuals = pedophiles harbor deep-seated issues themselves.

[mominatrix]

May 22, 2015 8:44:58 GMT -5 penguingrrl said:

H and I were just discussing this. H is an Eagle Scout and in his troop religion and homosexuality never once came up. Although he was raised Catholic so it may very well be that he never noticed it if that makes sense. The troop in our town met at the public school, so I think it wasn't sponsored by a church or religious in nature. I know people who are involved now and all are fairly socially progressive and inclusive, so I think that at our local level it's a welcoming and inclusive group. Several scouts H grew up with came out in college and at least one is involved at the local level and is openly gay.

This is still too little for us to allow Drew to join, but we also see it as a positive step towards allowing him to join. H and I were both scouts, our girls are scouts (yay for the inclusiveness of Girl Scouts!), so it will be very weird for us if Drew isn't, especially since there aren't alternatives in our area that we have found. But until and unless they become a truly inclusive organization he won't be involved.

look into Campfire. They seem to be the most prevalent of the other scouting orgs
campfire.org/

[Deleted]

I have no doubt this ban will be removed. It's the natural progression of allowing gay scouts.

[AJL]

May 22, 2015 6:10:21 GMT -5 secretlyevil said:

OTOH, the GS are in the news for this.

m.mic.com/articles/118906/the-girl-scouts-new-trans-inclusive-policy-proves-its-most-feminist-move-yet?fb_action_ids=863282113738368&fb_action_types=og.shares&fb_source=other_multiline&action_object_map=%5B1076485089033196%5D&action_type_map=%5B%22og.shares%22%5D&action_ref_map=%5B%5D

It's a step BSA but it's not enough.

It's a step in the right direction. BSA is going to change. We're involved at the local level and the issue of gay scouts and gay leaders is a non-issue. Of course, I live in a very liberal city so that has some impact on how things are conducted at the local level. I wrestled with letting DS join Boy Scouts and sought the opinion of lots of former Boy Scouts, four of whom are gay men who earned their Eagle Scout designations. A majority of those men felt that it was a good organization that had a positive impact on their lives and being gay was never an issue during the experience. All four gay former scouts told me that if they had a son who wanted to join scouting, they would let him and work to change the organization from the inside.  That change is coming though slowly. 

I am still a registered Girl Scout and I applaud the inclusive strides GSUSA has made. I'm committed to helping BSA do the same and I'm not alone in that effort. Many BSA members want to see inclusion of all men into scouting.

[AJL]

May 22, 2015 8:37:48 GMT -5 orval said:

My ds does cub scouts and it is a faith based organization. Packs have a charter organization which is a church - I don't know of any in our area that are not a church. Ours is based at a Catholic church and there are plenty of our scouts that are not Catholic. We do say a prayer before meals, but that is about the extent of the religious-ness.
We have core values that are discussed each meeting but they are more like citizenship and responsibility.

Well ours is an elementary school and was started by a leading educator in our area 50 years ago. We don't say any prayers before meals as a group.  So, not all charters are with religious groups.

[NewOrleans]

His concern is with the organization dying off, not with the organization being discriminatory. He is bring pragmatic, not just. "We must deal with the world as it is, not as we might wish it to be." Translation: we wish there were no gays or that we could keep discriminating against them.

[penguingrrl]

May 22, 2015 9:22:22 GMT -5 mominatrix said:

May 22, 2015 8:44:58 GMT -5 penguingrrl said:

H and I were just discussing this. H is an Eagle Scout and in his troop religion and homosexuality never once came up. Although he was raised Catholic so it may very well be that he never noticed it if that makes sense. The troop in our town met at the public school, so I think it wasn't sponsored by a church or religious in nature. I know people who are involved now and all are fairly socially progressive and inclusive, so I think that at our local level it's a welcoming and inclusive group. Several scouts H grew up with came out in college and at least one is involved at the local level and is openly gay.

This is still too little for us to allow Drew to join, but we also see it as a positive step towards allowing him to join. H and I were both scouts, our girls are scouts (yay for the inclusiveness of Girl Scouts!), so it will be very weird for us if Drew isn't, especially since there aren't alternatives in our area that we have found. But until and unless they become a truly inclusive organization he won't be involved.

look into Campfire. They seem to be the most prevalent of the other scouting orgs
campfire.org/

That looks awesome! But the only group in our state is an hour and a half away, which is just too far for a regular activity

[Deleted]

May 22, 2015 10:03:59 GMT -5 NewOrleans said:

His concern is with the organization dying off, not with the organization being discriminatory. He is bring pragmatic, not just. "We must deal with the world as it is, not as we might wish it to be." Translation: we wish there were no gays or that we could keep discriminating against them.

Look, if I was depending on a true change of heart before I was willing to accept the differences and advancements for my history as a black woman, where the fuck would I be?

Equality is made in various ways both great and small. Sometimes a swell of emotion is at the heart of it, sometimes pragmatism. Quite frankly, I don't give a fuck which it is. Do you think changes in the military in terms of race, gender, or sexual orientation have come because someone up top felt all warm and fuzzy about any of those topics?

I guess I'm just in an annoyed mood today because this comment really set me off. So until things are absolutely perfect and decisions made according to your perceived intentions, everyone can fuck off with that?

No, ma'am.

Sometimes you have to appeal to practicality to make a change. Sometimes emotions. At minimum, this thought process is just as valid as the person who magically makes a reversal on a similar topic only after finding out someone they love is part of the group they've been actively discriminating.

If you're waiting for people to call for an end to discrimination out of the goodness of their hearts, you'll be waiting for a long ass time.

[auntie]

May 22, 2015 7:31:09 GMT -5 wawa said:

May 22, 2015 7:08:39 GMT -5 blink said:

The BSA doesn't allow atheists. I didn't realize that.

Anywho, this is a good sign even if it is small. It is still depressing that some people think being attracted to one gender means everyone of that gender to create a fear of pedophilia. Hopefully, when nothing bad happens with NYC Eagle Scout's camp leader opinions will start changing.

According to MH it's not like...a for real for real ban and just like gay scouts until they took that back depends on local leadership. 


It's a thing. The BSA is an organization that has a faith component. What that looks like can vary depending on the demographics of your community and your chartering organization.

I live in a fairly affluent and well educated area- even our more conservative folks are relatively socially liberal or at least not willing to out themselves as rabid homophobes. DS Troop is chartered by our local HOA (another reason to hate HOAs) which means we don't ascribe to one set of religious doctrine.

I have participated in over 30 Eagle Scout BORs over the years. The religious component has been interpreted here to mean "open to the idea of a higher power/deity". It's sort of like AA in that respect. 


He got asked about his faith at his eagle....uhhh...thingy? 


BOR. The question about how you live your faith, "duty to God", is one of the questions that is always asked. In preparation for applying for the rank of Eagle, a scout has to procure a "Character Profile" from a clergy member or someone involved in his religious life. Otherwise the boy's parents have to provide a statement of religious belief explaining how faith is expressed in their family. This comes up pretty often in DS's Troop because we have had a number of Eagle Scouts who are Chinese or Chinese-American who are atheists. It's never hindered the boys IME.

I've known other kids who worked at camp to ask their chaplain to fill out their form. DS wrote a statement of religious belief since he's a Quaker and we don't have clergy.


Where they interview you on boyscouty questions?  (somebody knows what i'm talking about here, right?  auntie ?) and his answers were basically like, "yeah, I don't so much have one."  It had never come up before that. 


Religion is woven into scouting. God is present in both the oath and law repeated at the start of each meeting. Your Dh would have recited both at his BOR. You'd be surprised how often kids choke on this. TBH, I have trouble keeping the 12 points in order myself. Any camporee or jamboree will have religious services available. At National Jambo, scouts attended at least one religious service in order to earn some set of participation patches. DS's Troop attended the Buddhist Temple because it was closest to the campsite. He loved it. Usually non-sectarian, but sometimes a local priest, rabbi and minister who are themselves Eagles will turn up and do a denominational service or mass. Grace is said at all meals at any scout reservation. 

TBH, I don't get the atheist thing, you'd think they'd want to be inclusive as a means to expose those who are "unchurched".
In fact the BSA pushes this as one of the benefits of the program. 

Scouting's Bottom Line



What happens to a Scout? For every 100 boys who join Scouting, records indicate that:



RARELY will one be brought before the juvenile court system

2 will become Eagle Scouts

17 will become future Scout volunteers

12 will have their first contact with a church

1 will enter the clergy

5 will earn their church award

18 will develop a hobby that will last through their adult life

8 will enter a vocation that was learned through the merit badge system

1 will use his Scouting skills to save his own life

1 will use his Scouting skills to save the life of another person


Scouting's alumni record is equally impressive. A recent nation- wide survey of high schools revealed the following information:



85% of student council presidents were Scouts

89% of senior class presidents were Scouts

80% of junior class presidents were Scouts

75% of school publication editors were Scouts

71% of football captains were Scouts

Scouts also account for:



64% of Air Force Academy graduates

68% of West Point graduates

70% of Annapolis graduates

72% of Rhodes Scholars

85% of F.B.I. agents

26 of the first 29 astronauts

The old dude who asked that question seemed rather taken aback and had some followups that I personally would have found offensive, but just made MH roll his eyes.  (But how do you have MORALS!?  How do you connect to your community?!)  He still got his eagle.


The old dudes are something else. I roll my eyes regularly. I also challenge the rules around homosexuality and religion pretty vocally when I get the chance. I'll say this for them, they are very committed. To the program and to helping boys be successful in earning Eagle. Our District Eagle Chair does 2-3 Eagle BORs each week. These take about 1-2 hours and require him to read the scout's packet. He usually visit the kid's project site as well since the kids put so many hours into it. Plus he meets one night a month reviewing potential projects and another night keeping the rest of us in the loop.

So...yeah.  It's a thing.  They're a ridiculous organization at the national level and they have approx. 6 years to get their fucking act together or else I'm going to have to put my foot down, and Sizzli will not be a scout. 


That would be sad. But I understand how you feel. I'm certain if my kid didn't have special needs I might have taken a pass. I have never seen or felt the kind of nonsense that you read in the paper. Some of the best people I know I met scouting. A few of them aren't big on organized religion and a couple of my Eagles are out. 


No single organization has been so inclusive of my son as the BSA. The program and the trail to Eagle- once you peel away the bullshit- is a phenomenal approach to raising a thoughtful and competent adult. Sure you could have the talks about responsibility, values, financial literacy, community service, etc on your own but the prompts in place through programing make it easier to cover. Ds came away with all kinds of skills- he can do basic plumbing, first aid, public speaking, budgeting, organization, carpentry, cooking, welding, landscaping and knows how to be appropriate in a range of circumstances. It's been good for him.


They have some exciting programs in the pipeline. There's a new STEM initiative that is probably going to be coed as Venturing and Exploring are. Exploring is very exciting- it's associated with the BSA but doesn't have the whole gay/atheist thing in place. It's coed career exploration and pretty cool. I interviewed a Chief who is pre-med and got her EMT certs riding along with her volunteer EMS. 


Despite that fact that his daddy, his uncle, his grand daddy, and a wide assortment of his great uncles are all eagle scouts.


How do they feel about the the exclusionary practices of the BSA? Have they made their opinions known? Are they volunteering and changing things from within? IMHO, the thing that will make scouting relevant is a new generation of men who benefitted from the program refusing to let the religious crazies run things. 


 My BIL is in his late 20's and my MIL only recently stopped being involved in his troop.  This will be kind of a big deal if we don't do scouts, but I'm not enrolling my kid in an activity that would ban one of his grandmothers from participation.  Also though I'm not an atheist, we're not going to raise the kids with any sort of defined faith, so...yeah.  That too.  This gives me hope.  I will be very curious to see how the church reaction plays out though.  I know our local troop is sponsored by the Baptist church.

Funny you mention the grandmother. One of the most surprising BORs I ever attended was for a kid I always assumed was kind of a dipshit. Sweet, sweet kid. Very well off but seriously clueless. In his Eagle proposal he was going to buy bottled water to mix concrete. I shit you not.

At the end, his reviewer asked him if he had any thoughts on the program. He looked the reviewer in the eye and said I don;t like the ban on gays. I would like a career in scouting and would make that my top priority. I have an aunt who is a lesbian. She is the finest person I know and your organization is poorer for excluding her". You could have knocked me over with a feather. I suspect one of his mom's speech writers fed him the line. But wow. 

[Mrs.Rad888]

May 22, 2015 10:29:57 GMT -5 @helenabonhamcarter said:

May 22, 2015 10:03:59 GMT -5 NewOrleans said:

His concern is with the organization dying off, not with the organization being discriminatory. He is bring pragmatic, not just. "We must deal with the world as it is, not as we might wish it to be." Translation: we wish there were no gays or that we could keep discriminating against them.

Look, if I was depending on a true change of heart before I was willing to accept the differences and advancements for my history as a black woman, where the fuck would I be?

Equality is made in various ways both great and small. Sometimes a swell of emotion is at the heart of it, sometimes pragmatism. Quite frankly, I don't give a fuck which it is. Do you think changes in the military in terms of race, gender, or sexual orientation have come because someone up top felt all warm and fuzzy about any of those topics?

I guess I'm just in an annoyed mood today because this comment really set me off. So until things are absolutely perfect and decisions made according to your perceived intentions, everyone can fuck off with that?

No, ma'am.

Sometimes you have to appeal to practicality to make a change. Sometimes emotions. At minimum, this thought process is just as valid as the person who magically makes a reversal on a similar topic only after finding out someone they love is part of the group they've been actively discriminating.

If you're waiting for people to call for an end to discrimination out of the goodness of their hearts, you'll be waiting for a long ass time.

I was actually wondering the same thing Voodoo was, whether he wanted to lift the ban because of the threat of BSA dying, or because he truly believed that there's no reason to discriminate against gay men.
You have set me straight once again.
A little anecdote: When I was called out on my views about gay marriage, I actually took the time to examine how I feel and why I felt that way. What I finally realized was that gay people being allowed to marry affected me not at all, so there was no reason gay marriage should be illegal. Not the most altruistic way of thinking, only being concerned with how it affected me, but that actually opened a door. I eventually came to a realization that gay people should be allowed to marry because they should be entitled to the same protections that marriage gives to straight people, but also because they should be allowed to be happy and be in a committed, loving relationship. 
My anecdote does tie in-regardless of the reason behind the BSA leader being willing to lift the ban on gay scout leaders, hopefully people will eventually see that gay people aren't a threat to their preshuss, and then eventually realize that, hey, they deserve to be involved in all the same stuff that straight people are. Besides, it's not like only letting straight men run the scouts has kept abuse from happening.

[NewOrleans]

May 22, 2015 10:29:57 GMT -5 @helenabonhamcarter said:

May 22, 2015 10:03:59 GMT -5 NewOrleans said:

His concern is with the organization dying off, not with the organization being discriminatory. He is bring pragmatic, not just. "We must deal with the world as it is, not as we might wish it to be." Translation: we wish there were no gays or that we could keep discriminating against them.

Look, if I was depending on a true change of heart before I was willing to accept the differences and advancements for my history as a black woman, where the fuck would I be?

Equality is made in various ways both great and small. Sometimes a swell of emotion is at the heart of it, sometimes pragmatism. Quite frankly, I don't give a fuck which it is. Do you think changes in the military in terms of race, gender, or sexual orientation have come because someone up top felt all warm and fuzzy about any of those topics?

I guess I'm just in an annoyed mood today because this comment really set me off. So until things are absolutely perfect and decisions made according to your perceived intentions, everyone can fuck off with that?

No, ma'am.

Sometimes you have to appeal to practicality to make a change. Sometimes emotions. At minimum, this thought process is just as valid as the person who magically makes a reversal on a similar topic only after finding out someone they love is part of the group they've been actively discriminating.

If you're waiting for people to call for an end to discrimination out of the goodness of their hearts, you'll be waiting for a long ass time.

This is definitely a fair assessment, and his logical appeal can carry just as much weight as an emotional appeal can-- indeed, perhaps more, as emotional appeals have failed on this topic for so long. I'm all "DON'T INSULT ME WITH THE CRUMBS FROM YOUR TABLE, MAN!" but the reality is yes, we should celebrate? graciously acknowledge? all forms of progress.  Because otherwise the opposition is going to be like "fine, fuck you very much then."

[Deleted]

They argue that someone that is attracted to the scouts can't be a leader. Homosexual man with boys or heterosexual man with girls. So would they allow lesbian to be with the boys? I think not. So their argument is a lie.

[penguingrrl]

May 22, 2015 10:29:57 GMT -5 @helenabonhamcarter said:

May 22, 2015 10:03:59 GMT -5 NewOrleans said:

His concern is with the organization dying off, not with the organization being discriminatory. He is bring pragmatic, not just. "We must deal with the world as it is, not as we might wish it to be." Translation: we wish there were no gays or that we could keep discriminating against them.

Look, if I was depending on a true change of heart before I was willing to accept the differences and advancements for my history as a black woman, where the fuck would I be?

Equality is made in various ways both great and small. Sometimes a swell of emotion is at the heart of it, sometimes pragmatism. Quite frankly, I don't give a fuck which it is. Do you think changes in the military in terms of race, gender, or sexual orientation have come because someone up top felt all warm and fuzzy about any of those topics?

I guess I'm just in an annoyed mood today because this comment really set me off. So until things are absolutely perfect and decisions made according to your perceived intentions, everyone can fuck off with that?

No, ma'am.

Sometimes you have to appeal to practicality to make a change. Sometimes emotions. At minimum, this thought process is just as valid as the person who magically makes a reversal on a similar topic only after finding out someone they love is part of the group they've been actively discriminating.

If you're waiting for people to call for an end to discrimination out of the goodness of their hearts, you'll be waiting for a long ass time.

Thank you for that. I'm not being sarcastic when I say that I think you changed my thinking on this and that when the time comes I will sign my son up for scouts. As long as they aren't openly discriminatory I will become involved and hopefully contribute to the change of heart from within but will also accept progress as it comes instead of holding out for perfection.