"How do you.... prevent random predatory people (probably dudes) from deciding they feel like using the women's shower today?"
You are asking the same Q as Huckabee and it's a ridiculous red herring.
I think it's a valid question. If you think it is so easy, then what is the answer?
Anecdotes: I'm thinking of two dudes in my highschool that may have done something like this just to fuck with the teachers but they also really enjoyed making girls feel uncomfortable so that would be a bonus.
I have a hard time imagining that most teenage boys are willing to present themselves as female seriously enough to be allowed to use the girl's locker room. Allowing people to use the bathroom of the gender they identify doesn't necessarily mean letting any boy shower with girls just because he says he wants to.
That's the thing,Huckabee is such a simple man, that he probably believes this is exactly how it works.
"How do you.... prevent random predatory people (probably dudes) from deciding they feel like using the women's shower today?"
You are asking the same Q as Huckabee and it's a ridiculous red herring.
I think it's a valid question. If you think it is so easy, then what is the answer?
Anecdotes: I'm thinking of two dudes in my highschool that may have done something like this just to fuck with the teachers but they also really enjoyed making girls feel uncomfortable so that would be a bonus.
Because it ignores what being transgender means and the negative attitudes that a child faces when he or she identifies with the opposite gender. It's not some cake walk. To imply that someone would do this for funsies to stare at boobies is the same as suggesting that woman cry rape or sexual harassment for money or attention. Moreover I have yet hear of a single story of someone abusing a transgender bathroom policy.
I think this fear of boys sharing bathrooms with girls under the guise of transgenderism or vice versa for nefarious purposes should go on the same burn pile as voter fraud and women crying fake rape.
"How do you.... prevent random predatory people (probably dudes) from deciding they feel like using the women's shower today?"
You are asking the same Q as Huckabee and it's a ridiculous red herring.
I think it's a valid question. If you think it is so easy, then what is the answer?
Anecdotes: I'm thinking of two dudes in my highschool that may have done something like this just to fuck with the teachers but they also really enjoyed making girls feel uncomfortable so that would be a bonus.
Are we really assuming that all males are so horrible that they are only staying out of the women's restroom because it's labeled "Women"?
I have a hard time imagining that most teenage boys are willing to present themselves as female seriously enough to be allowed to use the girl's locker room. Allowing people to use the bathroom of the gender they identify doesn't necessarily mean letting any boy shower with girls just because he says he wants to.
Exactly.
You know, if there is a sick and twisted boy out there that might actually try this, that person is not letting the fear of transgendered people stop him from being a predator. He's probably already set up the spy cam in the drain or something, you know?
The idea that accepting transgendered people for what they are is somehow going to unleash a new epidemic of sex crimes is fucking absurd.
I think if a school can't tell the difference between an actual trans youth using the showers in the locker room based on the gender they live in on a daily basis... and a bunch of meatheads trying to get a free show... then, well, maybe they need some education. Said with love, of course.
I can't believe I'm about to defend Huckabee, but what was the context of this statement? Were they talking about allowing transgender students (and people in general) to use the locker rooms that they feel most comfortable with?
Because there is a valid point in there if you can get past his jokes about creeping on teenaged girls. How do you provide safe showers for transgender people and prevent random predatory people (probably dudes) from deciding they feel like using the women's shower today? Is it going to be based on how creepy other people find the transgender person? People aren't exactly open-minded about trans people as evidenced by Huckabee. Will a simple declaration be enough? Because then it's easy for people to go to the other locker rooms just to be assholes. Add in to the mix that there are people who legitimately feel male or female or neither on any given day and I think these are valid questions.
I think single stall showers are the answer but that might be so expensive that maybe it's not an option.
I think Huckabee cares not at all about the safety of trans people in showers.
Or the safety of women, really for that matter.
See, e.g. support for Josh Duggar, support for Todd Akin, his stance on abortion...
"How do you.... prevent random predatory people (probably dudes) from deciding they feel like using the women's shower today?"
You are asking the same Q as Huckabee and it's a ridiculous red herring.
I think it's a valid question. If you think it is so easy, then what is the answer?
Anecdotes: I'm thinking of two dudes in my highschool that may have done something like this just to fuck with the teachers but they also really enjoyed making girls feel uncomfortable so that would be a bonus.
1) 99.99999999% of people wouldn't choose to go through the motions or steps of declaring they are transgender and asking for accommodation just to look at naked girls. (Though, come to think of it, do girls shower after gym class? Maybe after sports practice?)
2) I don't know what accommodation would entail, but I'm guessing that in a high school, it would mean that parents or guardians work with administrators and provide some proof of the need to accommodate. So, like, a letter from a psychologist, or proof or a statement that the student is presenting like the gender they were not assigned at birth. In no case do I think a male student who goes up to administrators and says, "Yeah, I think I'm a lady, I'm going to need to use the girls' bathroom," would be given a free pass.
But when it comes to public restrooms, who says that everyone you encounter is biologically female anyway? I've used plenty of public restrooms with strangers and never considered it a good idea to do a genital check or ask about their assigned sex vs the gender they are presenting as.
I have to say... the pics of the trans women in mens' bathrooms in the Advocate piece break my heart. That seems SO unsafe, scary. I can't even imagine...
I have a hard time imagining that most teenage boys are willing to present themselves as female seriously enough to be allowed to use the girl's locker room. Allowing people to use the bathroom of the gender they identify doesn't necessarily mean letting any boy shower with girls just because he says he wants to.
Exactly.
You know, if there is a sick and twisted boy out there that might actually try this, that person is not letting the fear of transgendered people stop him from being a predator. He's probably already set up the spy cam in the drain or something, you know?
The idea that accepting transgendered people for what they are is somehow going to unleash a new epidemic of sex crimes is fucking absurd.
I am not arguing that most or even 1% of boys would do this. I'm saying it only take one asshole.
But ESF frames the situation very well for me. I like her argument and I get it. To paraphrase her: it's not fair to punish the 1-10% of people who are trans just because of the <1% who are sociopaths.
You know, if there is a sick and twisted boy out there that might actually try this, that person is not letting the fear of transgendered people stop him from being a predator. He's probably already set up the spy cam in the drain or something, you know?
The idea that accepting transgendered people for what they are is somehow going to unleash a new epidemic of sex crimes is fucking absurd.
I am not arguing that most or even 1% of boys would do this. I'm saying it only take one asshole.
But ESF frames the situation very well for me. I like her argument and I get it. To paraphrase her: it's not fair to punish the 1-10% of people who are trans just because of the <1% who are sociopaths.
Well, yes, but it's more than just that. It's that there is just absolutely no basis to conclude that letting a trans person use a bathroom will spawn new sociopaths. Sociopaths exist. But why do you think they are not acting on sociopathic tendencies simply because society discriminates against transgendered people? What specifically is it about trans-phobia that keeps sociopaths at bay?
It's not that we are making a tradeoff between discrimination and safety. It's that the safety concerns exist separate and apart from the issue of whether transgendered people should be accommodated.
I think it's a valid question. If you think it is so easy, then what is the answer?
Anecdotes: I'm thinking of two dudes in my highschool that may have done something like this just to fuck with the teachers but they also really enjoyed making girls feel uncomfortable so that would be a bonus.
1) 99.99999999% of people wouldn't choose to go through the motions or steps of declaring they are transgender and asking for accommodation just to look at naked girls. (Though, come to think of it, do girls shower after gym class? Maybe after sports practice?)
2) I don't know what accommodation would entail, but I'm guessing that in a high school, it would mean that parents or guardians work with administrators and provide some proof of the need to accommodate. So, like, a letter from a psychologist, or proof or a statement that the student is presenting like the gender they were not assigned at birth. In no case do I think a male student who goes up to administrators and says, "Yeah, I think I'm a lady, I'm going to need to use the girls' bathroom," would be given a free pass.
Stereotypical maybe, but I think most teachers can figure out who is truly in need of accommodation and those who are not.
yes, I feel there would need to be an accommodation meeting prior to, might fall under a 504, not sure.
I think right now things are on a district by district basis, since there are no state laws. It's schools writing policy and having the policy challenged in court that is shaping things now.
School Level Procedure: - Student Contacts School - School Requests a Hearing - Documents in Support of Request - registration records showing gender identity - personal characteristics of the student - list of the athletic activities that the student seeks to participate in - Documentation establishing the student’s consistent gender identity - Medical documentation related to the student’s consistent gender identity and/or athletic advantage or disadvantage - Documentation describing the student-athlete’s prior athletic participation - Other documentation that the school, student or parent feels should be considered MPA Procedure: - Initial Hearing - Standard of Proof - GIE Decision - Effect of Approval - Right to Appeal
It's not a simple "I feel like a girl today, so show me the boobies and you can't stop me because #discrimination" process.
Also, I would like to get all defensive and huffy and point out that I was asking how schools could implement safe showers for trans people. I wasn't asking if transgender people need safe spaces or worse, arguing that transgender people don't need safe spaces.
Also, I would like to get all defensive and huffy and point out that I was asking how schools could implement safe showers for trans people. I wasn't asking if transgender people need safe spaces or worse, arguing that transgender people don't need safe spaces.
You actually also asked: how can we prevent random predatory people (probably dudes) from deciding they feel like using the women's shower today? That's really what people are responding to.
I am not arguing that most or even 1% of boys would do this. I'm saying it only take one asshole.
But ESF frames the situation very well for me. I like her argument and I get it. To paraphrase her: it's not fair to punish the 1-10% of people who are trans just because of the <1% who are sociopaths.
Well, yes, but it's more than just that. It's that there is just absolutely no basis to conclude that letting a trans person use a bathroom will spawn new sociopaths. Sociopaths exist. But why do you think they are not acting on sociopathic tendencies simply because society discriminates against transgendered people? What specifically is it about trans-phobia that keeps sociopaths at bay?
It's not that we are making a tradeoff between discrimination and safety. It's that the safety concerns exist separate and apart from the issue of whether transgendered people should be accommodated.
I don't think I understand where you are going with this. Sociopaths exist... and then I don't follow. They do sociopathic things? Trans-phobia? I am lost.
Also, I would like to get all defensive and huffy and point out that I was asking how schools could implement safe showers for trans people. I wasn't asking if transgender people need safe spaces or worse, arguing that transgender people don't need safe spaces.
You actually also asked: how can we prevent random predatory people (probably dudes) from deciding they feel like using the women's shower today? That's really what people are responding to.
Yes. And ESF pointed out that you can't prevent random predatory people (probably dudes) from doing random predatory things.
Well, yes, but it's more than just that. It's that there is just absolutely no basis to conclude that letting a trans person use a bathroom will spawn new sociopaths. Sociopaths exist. But why do you think they are not acting on sociopathic tendencies simply because society discriminates against transgendered people? What specifically is it about trans-phobia that keeps sociopaths at bay?
It's not that we are making a tradeoff between discrimination and safety. It's that the safety concerns exist separate and apart from the issue of whether transgendered people should be accommodated.
I don't think I understand where you are going with this. Sociopaths exist... and then I don't follow. They do sociopathic things? Trans-phobia? I am lost.
Huckabee: if you let Bruce Jenner use the women's room, then high school boys are gonna say, "ooh lemme wear a skirt so i can see some bewbies."
In other words, he is saying what a previous poster said: the only thing standing between a 15 year old pervert and his desire to see a naked lady is strict enforcement of the "women" sign on the door. Nothing else is standing in the way between a sociopathic pervert doing what he wants to do but the rule that says he isn't allowed in there.
I took issue with that. You then interpreted my remarks to mean that I was saying that we should balance the rights of transgendered people with the very tiny risk of sociopaths. That is not at all what I said.
To see this issue as a balancing of safety with the rights of transgendered people, you have to think that strict enforcement of sex-segregated restrooms is preventing a class of sociopaths from being sociopaths.
What I'm saying is that there's no balancing involved because there's no new safety concern that comes with letting a male with gender dysphoria to use the women's room.
The sociopathic pervert who wants to see a naked lady has a million tools at their disposal to make that happen. There are certainly lots of them. Huckabee would know. Maybe if we accept transgendered people and let them use whatever bathroom they list, perhaps the sociopathic pervert might have a new way to be gross. But it won't be a new sociopathic pervert. It won't even be a new place where the sociopathic pervert can be a sociopathic pervert. It just means he can walk in the bathroom in plain view to install his vag cam in the toilet, instead of having to sneak in with a bad wig late at night.
It's not like, "well, you have a right to carry a gun, but it increases danger to others, so let's balance the two." if there are no guns, nobody gets shot. If there are no transgendered people in the women's room, what is the gain in safety? There isn't one.
So I'm saying is that there's no reason to balance how much freedom to give a transgendered person with how much safety everyone else is entitled to, because there's no change in everyone else's safety. The only question is whether these people should be free to live their lives without discrimination and hardship.
Post by jdnotbyrider on Jun 2, 2015 17:29:34 GMT -5
Ah.... there's nothing like spending a nice, air conditioned evening dealing with people who think that the comments were funny on the Show of Hands Polling App.
.... Though actually, this conversation below actually didn't go that bad.
I don't think I understand where you are going with this. Sociopaths exist... and then I don't follow. They do sociopathic things? Trans-phobia? I am lost.
Huckabee: if you let Bruce Jenner use the women's room, then high school boys are gonna say, "ooh lemme wear a skirt so i can see some bewbies."
...
So I'm saying is that there's no reason to balance how much freedom to give a transgendered person with how much safety everyone else is entitled to, because there's no change in everyone else's safety. The only question is whether these people should be free to live their lives without discrimination and hardship.
I agree with you. I think I just express myself poorly.
"How do you.... prevent random predatory people (probably dudes) from deciding they feel like using the women's shower today?"
You are asking the same Q as Huckabee and it's a ridiculous red herring.
I think it's a valid question if the showers are open style, just based on the fact that I know I wouldn't have wanted to see a penis when I was in high school, and I doubt I'm the only one who would fall into that category. I think that as we begin to acknowledge differences in sexuality, there are going to be accommodations that are going to have to be made. People freaked out when the ADA was passed and said that meeting all those accommodations would bankrupt the nation, yet it seems to have worked out fine. Why can't we do something similar for trans students?
I don't particularly like the idea of othering trans students by giving them a separate locker facility, but trans high school students are very unlikely to have gone through the gender reassignment process. (I would be shocked if you could even do any of that on someone who is young enough to still be developing?) I don't think it's reasonable to expect for a bunch of high school girls to be OK with a penis in their showers (I mean, just from a visual standpoint alone!), even if they are all best friends with her and really support her decision to live as female. Maybe the trans students wouldn't feel comfortable using a locker room designated to the gender they identified with-- I would think having different parts from everyone else would result in a lot of stares. I don't think everyone would be comfortable with that. Can you imagine a female trans student who identifies as male using the showers designated for the boys and the boys just treating her like one of the guys? I just don't have that much faith in teenagers.
"How do you.... prevent random predatory people (probably dudes) from deciding they feel like using the women's shower today?"
You are asking the same Q as Huckabee and it's a ridiculous red herring.
I think it's a valid question if the showers are open style, just based on the fact that I know I wouldn't have wanted to see a penis when I was in high school, and I doubt I'm the only one who would fall into that category. I think that as we begin to acknowledge differences in sexuality, there are going to be accommodations that are going to have to be made. People freaked out when the ADA was passed and said that meeting all those accommodations would bankrupt the nation, yet it seems to have worked out fine. Why can't we do something similar for trans students?
I don't particularly like the idea of othering trans students by giving them a separate locker facility, but trans high school students are very unlikely to have gone through the gender reassignment process. (I would be shocked if you could even do any of that on someone who is young enough to still be developing?) I don't think it's reasonable to expect for a bunch of high school girls to be OK with a penis in their showers (I mean, just from a visual standpoint alone!), even if they are all best friends with her and really support her decision to live as female. Maybe the trans students wouldn't feel comfortable using a locker room designated to the gender they identified with-- I would think having different parts from everyone else would result in a lot of stares. I don't think everyone would be comfortable with that. Can you imagine a female trans student who identifies as male using the showers designated for the boys and the boys just treating her like one of the guys? I just don't have that much faith in teenagers.
It's a legit question because you didn't want to see penis? Did you want to see vagina? Who wants to see anyone naked at school? That's awkward at any age.
And why are we still talking about showers?! I made it my entire educational career w/out showering at school. I don't know anyone who showered at school. My highschool had group showers and private stall showers for the organized athletes. I never used them. I never saw anyone use them. Showering at school is the red herring.
And furthermore the "question" posed by Huckabee was not how can we protect trans students. It was "how can ensure that pervy boys (like me!) don't go stare at boobs!!!" That's not legit!!! As has been discussed ad nauseum in here already.
Post by lyssbobiss, Command, B613 on Jun 2, 2015 18:07:29 GMT -5
This is all like when xh and I were talking about whether or not to circ babycakes and I wondered if the other guys would notice or care if his penis was different and xh is all "...the fuck do you think we were doing in there after practice? No one is looking. Everyone's worried about their own shit. Settle down, you have seen too many bad 80s movies." I think assuming that even one guy is so goddamn hard up that he will try to creep on the ladies by pretending to be trans is horrifying. What kinds of boys did you people grow up with? If a trans girl (male bodied) is in the female locker room during showers, people would notice if she was just leering but I assume she would be too concerned with her own body. Probably a quick in and out shower, or maybe none at all because it's too scary for her to even attempt.
I mean, I think a creepy predatory teenaged boy will probably find a way to ogle women regardless of what restrictions we place on whether or not someone born with a penis showers in the girls' locker room. To even sort of conflate a shitbag boy like apparently fuckabee was with a trans female seems to suggest a pathology in the trans community that simply isn't there.
"This prick is asking for someone here to bring him to task Somebody give me some dirt on this vacuous mass so we can at last unmask him I'll pull the trigger on it, someone load the gun and cock it While we were all watching, he got Washington in his pocket."
Post by dawnzersong on Jun 2, 2015 19:07:14 GMT -5
The huge flaw in Huckabee's statement is that if there's a legitimate threat to the safety of women in public bathrooms, it already exists, now, even with our genital-segregated bathrooms. A guy my husband was deployed to Iraq with was sent home for sneaking into the women's shower facility (never subject to any criminal charges for it, just kicked out of the military and sent back to live freely among civilians with no public record of his actions). About 15 years ago, a senator from my state stormed into the women's room at a gas station and busted down the stall door to beat the shit out of his girlfriend. It's not like a man who truly wants to ogle women without their consent or assault them tries to follow them into a public restroom and says, "Oh, the sign on the door says men aren't allowed in here. I guess I'll just go home and take a nap." Allowing transgender people to use whatever bathroom they feel is most appropriate is not going to open the door for cisgender men to pretend they're trans in order to harm women, because they can already harm women in bathrooms as cisgender men.
Post by StrawberryBlondie on Jun 2, 2015 19:36:04 GMT -5
Also, if people pretending to be trans just to go in the ladies' and rape or ogle women was a legitimate problem, don't you think people would've tried it already? And you'd have heard about it?