I find it odd to say he doesn't need any kind of milk either.
I could never just cut my kids (babies) off completely from milk because it isn't necessary anymore the second they turn one. It was not only needed for their diet but also a big comfort to them I wasn't going to just take away because it isn't considered necessary- and I feel like it is!
I definitely think she should not bring in any type of milk that isn't nut free though. I wouldn't just cut him off completely though either. I'd find a way to give my kid milk that is allowed at the daycare. Or find a daycare that allowed nuts.
ruby412 DH's aunt has Celiac's. She always has nuts out on the tables at holidays and it makes me a nervous wreck because there are always around 80 people there and I'm scared he will be given something by someone who doesn't know us well.
Celiac's is serious, but it is not an allergy. A person can be wheat/rye/barley allergic, though. This means that there is an IgE response to the allergen which is very different from Celiac's, which is an auto immune disorder.
Oh my gosh, I'm not saying that if my sister eats gluten it will kill her (on the spot - eventually, it could.) I'm saying that it is something, like nut allergies, to be taken seriously. And I'm shocked that someone who has Celiac wouldn't be sensitive to that. Shame on your aunt.
I wasn't saying one is worse or more dangerous than the other. Celiac's is dangerous and can cause life long problems and difficulties. We have a cousin with it, too.
I think part of the problem I deal with, some of the other likely agree, is that terminology is used incorrectly when talking about all of this stuff. I've become really big in trying to educate people I meet about the differences between allergy, intolerance , auto immune disorders and sensitivities. A lot of people think that those with food allergy will " just get an upset tummy" or get itchy. They really don't get the anaphylaxis component or the fact we have to deal with EpiPens. They also don't understand that EXTREMELY strict avoidance is the only way to have hope of outgrowing the allergy by not making the body create any more IgE to these foods. It's really frustrating and scary for those of us who have to deal with it.
If L was just sensitive, intolerant or got some sort of contact reaction from peanut/nuts and tested positive IgE to ara H8 peanut protein, I would be ok with him being around these items or even having an "accident".
I agree that baby A's needs are getting blown off in a way that is pretty flippant. This child also has medical needs in regards to feeding. I don't think anyone here would argue that a food that a child has a serious contact allergy to should be in their childcare setting. Of course kids safety is number 1. That said, an allergy does not always mean the allergen must be banned all together. There might be a safe way to get both kids what they need. Based on the post, we don't know if just having the milk in the facility would actually be a danger to anyone. If baby b has an allergy that only relates to ingesting the allergen, I see no reason why it can't be there for baby a. Staff would need to be well informed about who can have what/ monitor while eating/ drinking (ex: make sure there is no way baby b can't grab baby a's sippy of milk and drink it) but that is something staff should be able to do.
With the way that babies spit up and drool on anything, I would not be comfortable with baby A having any nut milks during daycare hours.Â
I can see this. Babies are different / messier than older kids. I guess I would still be interested to know what type of exposure causes child b to react. For example, if the drooling/spit up could cause a reaction, they should really be requesting that his classmates avoid nut products at breakfast before they come to school. Not really possible to monitor, but would be the same risk. I have students for whom we all sanitize hands every single time you enter our room in case you have touched the allergen/something that could have the allergen on it prior to entering our safe zone (ex: you go to the hall to grab a sweater from your locker-wipe down) kids who just need it out of the room, kids who could have someone eat the allergen in the room-but not at their table, kids who can be right next to it as long as they don't eat it etc... I have kids for whom we ban all home made items because it could bring in something cross contaminated (ex: no cut fruit because it could have shared a knife or cutting board that once was used with the allergen) and kids where that's a non issue. The child having an allergy could mean so many different things, all of which call for a different degree of diligence. That's why I have a hard time jumping to of course it could never be in the facility.
With the way that babies spit up and drool on anything, I would not be comfortable with baby A having any nut milks during daycare hours.
I can see this. Babies are different / messier than older kids. I guess I would still be interested to know what type of exposure causes child b to react. For example, if the drooling/spit up could cause a reaction, they should really be requesting that his classmates avoid nut products at breakfast before they come to school. Not really possible to monitor, but would be the same risk. I have students for whom we all sanitize hands every single time you enter our room in case you have touched the allergen/something that could have the allergen on it prior to entering our safe zone (ex: you go to the hall to grab a sweater from your locker-wipe down) kids who just need it out of the room, kids who could have someone eat the allergen in the room-but not at their table, kids who can be right next to it as long as they don't eat it etc... I have kids for whom we ban all home made items because it could bring in something cross contaminated (ex: no cut fruit because it could have shared a knife or cutting board that once was used with the allergen) and kids where that's a non issue. The child having an allergy could mean so many different things, all of which call for a different degree of diligence. That's why I have a hard time jumping to of course it could never be in the facility.
The school rules say that it's a nut free daycare, so I think even without Child B attending, it would be inappropriate for Child A's parents to knowingly send almond milk. It's directly against a policy they agreed to when enrolling their child.
That said, with young children and life-threatening allergies, it's very hard to know where the line is and very dangerous to test it. They're not old enough to alert adults when they're feeling funny and no one wants a child to die by accidentally crossing that threshold. The more exposures they have, often the larger and more dangerous their reaction, so that's another reason to not test them to find out the limit. G has only had one very serious reaction to peanuts, and she was eating peanut butter. But she reacts to the most dangerous/serious peanut protein that corresponds to the most severe allergies. We don't take any risks if we can help it bc I lie awake at night contemplating the day that I get that phone call that she's fighting for her life or worse.
I agree, nut free facility means no nuts. I don't care if they don't even have an allergic kids at the time. No need for them to get lax about policies and then run into issues when a kid with an allergy attends later.
shevacc I do the same. Often. And I consider myself kind of breezy about the whole thing because finding out all I can about food allergy help alleviate my fear.
There have been several times that I go to pick up L from school and an ambulance is racing the same way. My heart always stops and I fill with fear it is for him.
I can see this. Babies are different / messier than older kids. I guess I would still be interested to know what type of exposure causes child b to react. For example, if the drooling/spit up could cause a reaction, they should really be requesting that his classmates avoid nut products at breakfast before they come to school. Not really possible to monitor, but would be the same risk. I have students for whom we all sanitize hands every single time you enter our room in case you have touched the allergen/something that could have the allergen on it prior to entering our safe zone (ex: you go to the hall to grab a sweater from your locker-wipe down) kids who just need it out of the room, kids who could have someone eat the allergen in the room-but not at their table, kids who can be right next to it as long as they don't eat it etc... I have kids for whom we ban all home made items because it could bring in something cross contaminated (ex: no cut fruit because it could have shared a knife or cutting board that once was used with the allergen) and kids where that's a non issue. The child having an allergy could mean so many different things, all of which call for a different degree of diligence. That's why I have a hard time jumping to of course it could never be in the facility.
The school rules say that it's a nut free daycare, so I think even without Child B attending, it would be inappropriate for Child A's parents to knowingly send almond milk. It's directly against a policy they agreed to when enrolling their child.
That said, with young children and life-threatening allergies, it's very hard to know where the line is and very dangerous to test it. They're not old enough to alert adults when they're feeling funny and no one wants a child to die by accidentally crossing that threshold. The more exposures they have, often the larger and more dangerous their reaction, so that's another reason to not test them to find out the limit. G has only had one very serious reaction to peanuts, and she was eating peanut butter. But she reacts to the most dangerous/serious peanut protein that corresponds to the most severe allergies. We don't take any risks if we can help it bc I lie awake at night contemplating the day that I get that phone call that she's fighting for her life or worse.
I agree 100%. In the OP it wasn't super clear if it was nut free or peanut free. She said both. If it's all nuts, it's a no brainier and the almond milk never ever should have been there in the first place. I'm really not trying to be insensitive. My boys don't have food allergies and I can't imagine the fear allergy moms live with. The only experience I can draw from is E having a reaction to penicillin. My grandmother died from am anaphylactic reaction to penicillin, so when I saw the hives I panicked. Now, I know I don't have to worry about that every time he goes our into the world, so I get it's not the same. In terms of food allergies at school, I'm coming from a teacher perspective. A teacher who works very hard to keep my students safe and diligently follows each child's safety plans. I'm just trying to bring the perceptive that allergy doesn't always mean the same thing and safety plans vary wildly. It seems like when allergies get brought up the solution is always completely ban the allergen from the environment and that isn't always necessary. In a school setting, where one classroom might have a half dozen or more different allergies, plus intolerances and other medical/religious dietary restrictions-there has to be something left to eat with our number one priority remaining student safety. I have all the respect in the world for the allergy moms on this board. I'm just bringing another angle.
I am tempted so many times to pull out E's pics from his incident. So people can see that it's no joke.
If this is directed at me, I hope you know I know allergies are no joke. I always follow every detail of the safety plans put together by the parents/doctors of my students with allergies. I would never ever want something bad to happen to a student on my care. And again, I respect all the hard work parents of kids with allergies put into keeping their children safe/the fear they live with.
badgermom I think the problem lies in schools being almost bullied by some parents to deal with more than just IgE life- threatening allergy and deal with things that don't need an outright ban on an allergen- like oral allergy syndrome, intolerances and sensitivities. Many will think this a jerk comment or that my kid is a Special Snowflake but this is the reason people don't take IgE mediated food allergy seriously or think we are a bunch of crazy, irrational people making these requests.
If L didn't have a life threatening allergy I would be completely ok with it being in his environment and people eating it next to him. I'm pretty sure all the other ANA moms agree.
badgermom I think the problem lies in schools being almost bullied by some parents to deal with more than just IgE life- threatening allergy and deal with things that don't need an outright ban on an allergen- like oral allergy syndrome, intolerances and sensitivities. Many will think this a jerk comment or that my kid is a Special Snowflake but this is the reason people don't take IgE mediated food allergy seriously or think we are a bunch of crazy, irrational people making these requests.
If L didn't have a life threatening allergy I would be completely ok with it being in his environment and people eating it next to him. I'm pretty sure all the other ANA moms agree.
Post by thedahliharpa on Jul 30, 2015 14:52:40 GMT -5
I don't agree with a mostly nutritionally void milk alternative being a "need" rxbeth, especially at daycare when there are other hours of the day it can be provided.
Breastmilk is not permitted at our preschool (youngest age is 18mos). They took water and other sources of calcium in their lunches. I'm sure there were times it would have been very comforting for them to nurse while they were there but that wasn't a realistic option.
Poor girls, cut off from nutrition and comfort. lol jnoellee.
I am tempted so many times to pull out E's pics from his incident. So people can see that it's no joke.
If this is directed at me, I hope you know I know allergies are no joke. I always follow every detail of the safety plans put together by the parents/doctors of my students with allergies. I would never ever want something bad to happen to a student on my care. And again, I respect all the hard work parents of kids with allergies put into keeping their children safe/the fear they live with.
Nooo, not you. Just the general people who disregards the seriousness of life threatening allergies. This includes my own family, my H's family and friends.
badgermom I think the problem lies in schools being almost bullied by some parents to deal with more than just IgE life- threatening allergy and deal with things that don't need an outright ban on an allergen- like oral allergy syndrome, intolerances and sensitivities. Many will think this a jerk comment or that my kid is a Special Snowflake but this is the reason people don't take IgE mediated food allergy seriously or think we are a bunch of crazy, irrational people making these requests.
If L didn't have a life threatening allergy I would be completely ok with it being in his environment and people eating it next to him. I'm pretty sure all the other ANA moms agree.
That is probably a big part of it. As a teacher, I don't/could never make the determination what safety plans are "over the top" for an allergy that is in reality more of an intolerance. I get the plan. I follow it. I'm not going to be the one who says, well this doesn't really seem necessary and does a kid harm. The reality is when I have a half dozen different allergy safety plans in one class, some are probably for kids who truly have an anaphylactic response, like you child and some are a bit iffy (ex: the student who was only "allergic to pb only when served with chocolate" and had symptoms of stomach discomfort- maybe he are too many Reese's once. Still followed his plan to the letter).
You cannot be allergic to peanut butter only when eaten with chocolate. I know you cannot deem which plans are needed and which aren't. However, THIS is the kind of stuff from parents that pisses me off. No doctor, even a non allergist, would deem a child allergic to peanut only with chocolate.
On a slightly lighter note- during the last presidential election we did a mock election for a class mascot. One of the "candidates" was a stuffed squirrel. The kids made posters for their choice and it turned into a bit of a smear campaign against "Sammy the Squirrel". Squirrels eat nuts...nuts could really hurt child x...Sammy Squirrel wants to hurt child x...if you vote for him, you want to make your friend sick! He got zero votes. It was pretty intense/funny!
You cannot be allergic to peanut butter only when eaten with chocolate. I know you cannot deem which plans are needed and which aren't. However, THIS is the kind of stuff from parents that pisses me off. No doctor, even a non allergist, would deem a child allergic to peanut only with chocolate.
I know! And as an allergy parent it would make me irate! But we followed it because we have to. Now his plan basically was that he couldn't eat those two items together- so no big deal to follow. I'm just giving am example of the range of plans/the range of validity of plans we see.
badgermom, I appreciate your perspective. Part of food allergy action plans is to take into account the age and maturity of the child. In this case, toddlers can't be expected to not lick each other, smear food in their hair, etc. In that case, I really don't think there's any way to keep them safe while allowing one child to have the allergen. Unless they were to take the child A to another classroom to give the milk, rinse out his mouth, change his shirt and pants, wash hands and face, and anywhere else he got the almond milk. I wouldn't trust daycare teachers to be able to do all of that every single time.
I believe you teach young elementary school aged kids? By then, I wouldn't expect the entire elementary school to be nut-free, but depending on the recommendation of G's allergist, I might request a nut-free classroom and hand-washing. I would hope by then I could expect her not to lick random surfaces, but she still might put her fingers in her mouth. And other kids might still smear their food all over their clothes. By upper elementary age, I would assume she could keep her hands out of her mouth and that her peers would be neater eaters. With each increase in maturity, more and more responsibility for her allergy will be handed over. It's a changing balance what are the minimum restrictions necessary to create an environment with a minimum level of risk.
badgermom, I appreciate your perspective. Part of food allergy action plans is to take into account the age and maturity of the child. In this case, toddlers can't be expected to not lick each other, smear food in their hair, etc. In that case, I really don't think there's any way to keep them safe while allowing one child to have the allergen. Unless they were to take the child A to another classroom to give the milk, rinse out his mouth, change his shirt and pants, wash hands and face, and anywhere else he got the almond milk. I wouldn't trust daycare teachers to be able to do all of that every single time.
I believe you teach young elementary school aged kids? By then, I wouldn't expect the entire elementary school to be nut-free, but depending on the recommendation of G's allergist, I might request a nut-free classroom and hand-washing. I would hope by then I could expect her not to lick random surfaces, but she still might put her fingers in her mouth. And other kids might still smear their food all over their clothes. By upper elementary age, I would assume she could keep her hands out of her mouth and that her peers would be neater eaters. With each increase in maturity, more and more responsibility for her allergy will be handed over. It's a changing balance what are the minimum restrictions necessary to create an environment with a minimum level of risk.
This all makes sense. I teach either K or 1st (alternating years in order to loop with my students). Honest question, at the K/1 level what would be your take/comfort level on the fact that kids can eat nuts at lunch? Not in the room. In the cafeteria. For our allergy safe classrooms with kids having anaphylactic responses, students wipe using special sanitizer wipes before entering the room- so after lunch is one of our wiping times. As a teacher, if I see a kid has pb on his face, for example, I have him wash up before entering. That said, we don't really have a protocol that prevents a child from eating nuts a lunch or breakfast before coming to school, wiping hands, then putting his/her fingers in his/her mouth unnoticed and touching a surface the child with the allergy may later touch. I've never had a child have a reaction in my room, but I'm sure a scenario like this has happened. Many kinders are still putting fingers in their mouths. Is this something that would worry you? I'm not sure what else we could do, short of being a nut free school which is beyond my control.
Scenarios like what you describe - an anaphylactic reaction via saliva or unseen allergen can happen, but it is even MORE rare than the actual allergy itself.
Scenarios like what you describe - an anaphylactic reaction via saliva or unseen allergen can happen, but it is even MORE rare than the actual allergy itself.
Good to know. Shevacc mentioned the fingers in the mouth thing and I had a moment of " Oh no! My students totally do that." Kinders are awesome, but still put things in their mouths so much more than you would think. The reality is our kids with allergies are in the world. The person who had the cart before them at target might have just ate their allergen etc... But we try, within the bounds of what is possible, to make school a safe haven. Glad that's not another thing to try to build protocols around-beyond the normal it's gross and germy!
Scenarios like what you describe - an anaphylactic reaction via saliva or unseen allergen can happen, but it is even MORE rare than the actual allergy itself.
Good to know. Shevacc mentioned the fingers in the mouth thing and I had a moment of " Oh no! My students totally do that." Kinders are awesome, but still put things in their mouths so much more than you would think. The reality is our kids with allergies are in the world. The person who had the cart before them at target might have just ate their allergen etc... But we try, within the bounds of what is possible, to make school a safe haven. Glad that's not another thing to try to build protocols around-beyond the normal it's gross and germy!
I don't understand what this is supposed to mean.
I wipe down public food surfaces and carts before we get in them....
When people say stuff like " the reality is our kids with allergies are out in the world" it rubs me the wrong way. No shit. That's why I am a hyper manic freak about his allergy. LOL
Kind of like when someone who I thought was a close friend told me " well this is your new reality " when I was crying and hoping for support after just learning my kid could die from eating most chocolate.
Good to know. Shevacc mentioned the fingers in the mouth thing and I had a moment of " Oh no! My students totally do that." Kinders are awesome, but still put things in their mouths so much more than you would think. The reality is our kids with allergies are in the world. The person who had the cart before them at target might have just ate their allergen etc... But we try, within the bounds of what is possible, to make school a safe haven. Glad that's not another thing to try to build protocols around-beyond the normal it's gross and germy!
I don't understand what this is supposed to mean.
I wipe down public food surfaces and carts before we get in them....
I just mean that outside of school kids have potential exposures to their allergens too. Maybe the target example wasn't a good one. I just intended to say that I know my kids with allergies travel in the world. I run into them at the park and the parents aren't (because how could they) wiping down the slide from top to bottom in case someone has been on it after eating their allergen. They go to the library and the parent can't wipe down every book they touch just in case. That has to be one of the scariest parts of being a parent of a kid with allergies. You mitigate as many risks as you can, but they are still out there. At school we build as many protocols as we can to make school a safe space in the child's world.
Edited to say that I was typing this as you were saying that the "in the world" phrase is upsetting to you, Lola . If I had seen that post , I would not have used it again. I hope I clarified my meaning in my later posts.
I don't have a good gauge of how mature 5-7 year olds are since I don't yet have one, but I already can't control what G's daycare friends eat for breakfast. They also aren't good about enforcing the rule of washing hands when entering the classroom in the morning. The lack of control is something you just have to recognize and accept with a food allergy.
As far as kids eating nuts/peanut butter in the cafeteria, I just have to hope that there's a relatively small chance that a kid would still have a glob of peanut butter in his/her mouth after returning to the classroom and hand washing/wiping, then touching the peanut butter in their mouth, getting it onto their hands, that they would touch something that G also touches, then that G puts her hands into her mouth (or touches her face near her mouth, or it absorbs through her skin, ...).
There's a much higher likelihood that many kids could have nuts on their hands after lunch. Without hand washing, they could touch and spread nuts to many different surfaces in the classroom, especially with a sticky/oily substance like peanut butter. Hopefully washing/wiping down hands would minimize that risk.
We have already started asking G to take her hands out of her mouth and trying to make her aware when she does it. I hope by 5 she will be aware enough to not put her hands in her mouth often. But I can't ask her not to touch anything in her classroom. That's what I meant by it being a balance between risk and accommodation.
Sorry that that phrase is upsetting, Lola. I didn't mean to offend. Just meant to say when I panic about the limitations of our protocols for our most sensitive kids, I try to remind myself that the child/their parents are going the same things all day and typically when everyone is diligent the child is ok. My anxiety isn't that something awful could happen to my child, but rather that some oversight on my part could cause something awful to happen to another mother's child. Not the same, but also very real.
shevacc I do the same. Often. And I consider myself kind of breezy about the whole thing because finding out all I can about food allergy help alleviate my fear.
There have been several times that I go to pick up L from school and an ambulance is racing the same way. My heart always stops and I fill with fear it is for him.
me too! It's the worst. I try to tell myself it's our normal but then the anxiety flares up every so often.
I don't have a good gauge of how mature 5-7 year olds are since I don't yet have one, but I already can't control what G's daycare friends eat for breakfast. They also aren't good about enforcing the rule of washing hands when entering the classroom in the morning. The lack of control is something you just have to recognize and accept with a food allergy.
As far as kids eating nuts/peanut butter in the cafeteria, I just have to hope that there's a relatively small chance that a kid would still have a glob of peanut butter in his/her mouth after returning to the classroom and hand washing/wiping, then touching the peanut butter in their mouth, getting it onto their hands, that they would touch something that G also touches, then that G puts her hands into her mouth (or touches her face near her mouth, or it absorbs through her skin, ...).
There's a much higher likelihood that many kids could have nuts on their hands after lunch. Without hand washing, they could touch and spread nuts to many different surfaces in the classroom, especially with a sticky/oily substance like peanut butter. Hopefully washing/wiping down hands would minimize that risk.
We have already started asking G to take her hands out of her mouth and trying to make her aware when she does it. I hope by 5 she will be aware enough to not put her hands in her mouth often. But I can't ask her not to touch anything in her classroom. That's what I meant by it being a balance between risk and accommodation.
my issue is that at my elementary school and many others I've been to- the kids use hand sanitizer which does not break down the food protein/allergen. Then the kids who do use the sink don't wash well enough and use freezing water (that's all that comes out) and maybe soap (if so it's junk) When I see what goes on at my work I get such fear for when Luke is in elementary school. I honestly do not know what I will do