Anyone have a geothermal HVAC?

[krisim]

We are considering building a house and one of my friends strongly recommended investing in a geothermal HVAC.  They built a house a few years ago and had one installed and said that their energy bills are much lower than similarly sized houses and they got a tax credit.  Just wondering if there are many cons other than higher installation costs?

[kaylie]

I think FoxInFiji might have one.

[krisim]

Aug 3, 2015 23:19:28 GMT -5 @fivedogs said:

Our friends did this (switched from propane to geothermal). The only reason it made financial sense for them was because of the tax credit, but that ends at the end of 2016 (not sure what your time frame is).

www.energystar.gov/products/certified-products/detail/heat-pumps-geothermal

I'm not aware of any cons or big differences in day-to-day operation from a standard heat pump.

We'd start building in Feb. 2016, so I think we'd still be in time for the tax credit. 

[isitnaptime]

I have one, built a few years ago.  2700 SF and our bill is $280 a month (Houston July and August) and like $120 other months.  Cons are that few companies service them.  It works great other than that!

[krisim]

Aug 4, 2015 10:46:58 GMT -5 isitnaptime said:

I have one, built a few years ago.  2700 SF and our bill is $280 a month (Houston July and August) and like $120 other months.  Cons are that few companies service them.  It works great other than that!

Thank you!  Have you had to have yours serviced often? 

[isitnaptime]

We signed up for a plan to have it serviced ever summer and winter, no issues though.  Some of my neighbors have had some issues but mostly during the warranty period and poor installation. 

[FoxInFiji]

Aug 4, 2015 8:56:34 GMT -5 kaylie said:

I think FoxInFiji might have one.

Yes we do.  I design HVAC systems so I've designed a couple commercial systems as well. 

We love it!  We installed it in our house 7 years ago and it's just about paid for itself in savings.  We saved the cost difference between a new propane vs geothermal system after only 4 years.  We live in the country and don't have access to NG so our only other option was propane (the previous system was fuel oil which is rare around here and was costing a fortune to run).

Geothermal is the most cost effective renewable energy for residential homes and it is the most efficient system you can install.  With new construction and spreading the cost of the vertical bores out over a 30 year time frame (or however long your mortgage is) it is definitely what I would recommend. 

What kind of climate do you live in?  We live in the north and we still got a good payback.  If you're in a more temperate climate it will be even faster for you.  If you live in an area that has heat pumps finding someone to service the system should be no problem.  A geothermal system is a heat pump that instead of dumping the heat outside in the air it puts in the underground loop field.  The heat pumps are cheap and easy to replace as well.  About $1500 pre-contractor mark up.  The expensive part is the loop/vertical bores and those last for +100 years. 

Let me know if you have any questions (PM or here).  I'm happy to help!

[krisim]

Aug 5, 2015 13:00:07 GMT -5 FoxInFiji said:

Aug 4, 2015 8:56:34 GMT -5 kaylie said:

I think FoxInFiji might have one.

Yes we do.  I design HVAC systems so I've designed a couple commercial systems as well. 

We love it!  We installed it in our house 7 years ago and it's just about paid for itself in savings.  We saved the cost difference between a new propane vs geothermal system after only 4 years.  We live in the country and don't have access to NG so our only other option was propane (the previous system was fuel oil which is rare around here and was costing a fortune to run).

Geothermal is the most cost effective renewable energy for residential homes and it is the most efficient system you can install.  With new construction and spreading the cost of the vertical bores out over a 30 year time frame (or however long your mortgage is) it is definitely what I would recommend. 

What kind of climate do you live in?  We live in the north and we still got a good payback.  If you're in a more temperate climate it will be even faster for you.  If you live in an area that has heat pumps finding someone to service the system should be no problem.  A geothermal system is a heat pump that instead of dumping the heat outside in the air it puts in the underground loop field.  The heat pumps are cheap and easy to replace as well.  About $1500 pre-contractor mark up.  The expensive part is the loop/vertical bores and those last for +100 years. 

Let me know if you have any questions (PM or here).  I'm happy to help!

Thank you so much for your insight.   We live in the midwest, so a lot of temperature fluctuations.   Lot sizes are relatively small here (land is crazy expensive). and I read online that it can be more expensive to install if have to install vertically rather than horizontally, do you think this will drive the installation price up significantly?   

We are planning to meet with a builder next week who supposedly builds with geothermal, so I'd like to make sure I can ask good questions and understand the cost implications of the system. 

[FoxInFiji]

We're in WI. So residential units are sized based on the heating load in the winter. In areas where the heating and cooling loads are similar sizes geothermal systems are even more efficient.

Geo is expensive but the payback is better than any other HVAC and renewable energy in my area. Unlike solar or wind there is very little maintenance. Our system has 3 vertical bores at 200 ft deep and it cost us 20k. But a similar propane system was 12-15k and would have cost us a lot more to operate. We got 6k back from the tax rebate if I remember right. We will have saved the full 20k on our utility bill next year.

To give you an idea on the cost our house is 2800sf raised ranch (aka a lot of roof to lose heat out of). It has a lot of windows also. We spend $700 a year to heat the house and only $50 to cool it. Previously we were spending $2800-3000 on heating and we kept the house cooler. It was a bit of a fixer upper and we've been working hard to make it as energy efficient as possible. Prior to us buying the house and adding more insulation the previous owner spent $6000 a winter on fuel oil!

Yes vertical bores will be more expensive than horizontal bores. They are by far the most common install because so much space is needed otherwise. We have 3 acres of land but still did vertical bores because we didn't want to cut down a ton of trees to install horizontal bores. Generally it's $1500 per bore before mark up. The cost of the lines, filling, and testing is a bit as well but you would have those costs with either field install. The pipes are fusion welded and the same lines used for natural gas so they will last forever. Once the bore field is installed you won't need to touch it ever again. And in our area (and probably yours as well) 150' = 1 ton cooling = 12,000 Btuh heating. Hopefully that helps give you a rough idea on price and size.

On small lots if you don't have a big enough yard they can put the vertical bores under your driveway. But since it's new install a back or side yard is an option without tearing up your existing yard.

We also upgraded to a desuperheater which basically preheats our water before our water heater. So in the summer/cooling months we get free heating. We also had them put in a washable HEPA filter since I have allergies. They can be very expensive to replace and they need to be replaced often because they are so fine. So we got one we can wash off are reuse. Both of those upgrades were in that overall price.

[FoxInFiji]

A few more things I forget to mention...

It's important to right size a Geo system and have some accurate load calcs done on your house. Traditional residential installers always oversize units because with a regular furnace the added capacity is cheap. But when you are paying for extra bores the cost adds up quickly. You should also shop around for prices if you can because the cost can vary widely. Hopefully a company that specializes in them will have a decent price because they know what they are doing.

A new construction house will be tighter built a should need a smaller system than say our house. Also since this system is installed from day one the duct mains should be sized bigger to accommodate the extra air a Geo system provides. Since the heating is at a lower temperature that a fuel burner (+110degF) you need to circulate more air.

[ijack]

FoxInFiji what kind do you have? (can you link a model or something similar) I haven't actually heard good things about them in areas where it freezes a lot in the winter, but I'm definitely not an expert on them. I've looked into them a couple times in my line of work, but there isn't a ton of demand for them here because NG is so cheap.

[glynn]

I had one installed in my house in 2001. It worked great and cut my bills in 1/2 even with me paying the loan to the electric company to put it in. Never had a problem as of 2006 when I moved. I had one installed in KY in the early 90's also and one had a drain get stopped up which was a easy fix. I moved from that house in 1999 with no other problems. My Dad installed them back then so that was great. We in horizontal lines both times because of cost in our area.

[FoxInFiji]

Aug 6, 2015 10:26:18 GMT -5 ijack said:

FoxInFiji what kind do you have? (can you link a model or something similar) I haven't actually heard good things about them in areas where it freezes a lot in the winter, but I'm definitely not an expert on them. I've looked into them a couple times in my line of work, but there isn't a ton of demand for them here because NG is so cheap.

The geo heat pump we have is a ClimateMaster (www.climatemaster.com/residential/geothermal-heat-pumps/) but there are many residential units that are good including Water Furnace which is also very popular. Ideally get one that has a variable speed fan and a 2 scroll compressor.

If you don't mind I'll quickly explain a little about heat pumps. 
- A heat pump works exactly like your refrigerator or a window air conditioner.  But unlike your refrigerator it can reverse and either heat or cool and dump hot air or cold air outside the unit (similar to how your refrigerator produces hot air behind the unit).

- Refrigerant cycles are extremely efficient and that's where the efficiency comes from in a geo system.  From the heat pump.

- Heat pumps come in many different styles.  The most common residential installation is an air source heat pump where the heat pump dumps hot/cold air outside.  In cold climates these do not work well at times when the air temp is below freezing.  Geothermal heat pumps are water to water (or in reality water to a antifreeze/water mixture) so the only part of the system outside is the loop buried underground.  There are no air-conditioner portions sitting outside.  Therefore they can continue to work no matter the temperature outside. 

- Not having a noisy air-conditioner condenser outside is nice when we're out on the patio. 

- Another nice thing about geo heat pumps is you can convert from heating to cooling at the touch of a button on your thermostat.  We have often have varying temperatures and will be cooling one week and heating the next in the spring or fall. 

- We only have one utility bill (electric).  If don't want an electric hot water heater or oven then you'll need a small NG or propane system for those.

HTH!

[krisim]

Aug 6, 2015 11:54:20 GMT -5 FoxInFiji said:

Aug 6, 2015 10:26:18 GMT -5 ijack said:

FoxInFiji what kind do you have? (can you link a model or something similar) I haven't actually heard good things about them in areas where it freezes a lot in the winter, but I'm definitely not an expert on them. I've looked into them a couple times in my line of work, but there isn't a ton of demand for them here because NG is so cheap.

The geo heat pump we have is a ClimateMaster (www.climatemaster.com/residential/geothermal-heat-pumps/) but there are many residential units that are good including Water Furnace which is also very popular. Ideally get one that has a variable speed fan and a 2 scroll compressor.

If you don't mind I'll quickly explain a little about heat pumps. 
- A heat pump works exactly like your refrigerator or a window air conditioner.  But unlike your refrigerator it can reverse and either heat or cool and dump hot air or cold air outside the unit (similar to how your refrigerator produces hot air behind the unit).

- Refrigerant cycles are extremely efficient and that's where the efficiency comes from in a geo system.  From the heat pump.

- Heat pumps come in many different styles.  The most common residential installation is an air source heat pump where the heat pump dumps hot/cold air outside.  In cold climates these do not work well at times when the air temp is below freezing.  Geothermal heat pumps are water to water (or in reality water to a antifreeze/water mixture) so the only part of the system outside is the loop buried underground.  There are no air-conditioner portions sitting outside.  Therefore they can continue to work no matter the temperature outside. 

- Not having a noisy air-conditioner condenser outside is nice when we're out on the patio. 

- Another nice thing about geo heat pumps is you can convert from heating to cooling at the touch of a button on your thermostat.  We have often have varying temperatures and will be cooling one week and heating the next in the spring or fall. 

- We only have one utility bill (electric).  If don't want an electric hot water heater or oven then you'll need a small NG or propane system for those.

HTH!

Thanks so much for the helpful information, I feel much more confident talking to the builder about it now.  We are looking at building a 3000-4000 sq foot home, so energy efficiency is a top priority as long as we can stay within our budget.  

[FoxInFiji]

Aug 6, 2015 16:01:07 GMT -5 krisim said:

Aug 6, 2015 11:54:20 GMT -5 FoxInFiji said:

The geo heat pump we have is a ClimateMaster (www.climatemaster.com/residential/geothermal-heat-pumps/) but there are many residential units that are good including Water Furnace which is also very popular. Ideally get one that has a variable speed fan and a 2 scroll compressor.

If you don't mind I'll quickly explain a little about heat pumps. 
- A heat pump works exactly like your refrigerator or a window air conditioner.  But unlike your refrigerator it can reverse and either heat or cool and dump hot air or cold air outside the unit (similar to how your refrigerator produces hot air behind the unit).

- Refrigerant cycles are extremely efficient and that's where the efficiency comes from in a geo system.  From the heat pump.

- Heat pumps come in many different styles.  The most common residential installation is an air source heat pump where the heat pump dumps hot/cold air outside.  In cold climates these do not work well at times when the air temp is below freezing.  Geothermal heat pumps are water to water (or in reality water to a antifreeze/water mixture) so the only part of the system outside is the loop buried underground.  There are no air-conditioner portions sitting outside.  Therefore they can continue to work no matter the temperature outside. 

- Not having a noisy air-conditioner condenser outside is nice when we're out on the patio. 

- Another nice thing about geo heat pumps is you can convert from heating to cooling at the touch of a button on your thermostat.  We have often have varying temperatures and will be cooling one week and heating the next in the spring or fall. 

- We only have one utility bill (electric).  If don't want an electric hot water heater or oven then you'll need a small NG or propane system for those.

HTH!

Thanks so much for the helpful information, I feel much more confident talking to the builder about it now.  We are looking at building a 3000-4000 sq foot home, so energy efficiency is a top priority as long as we can stay within our budget.  

No problem! If you want me to help look at a quote or product list later just page or message me. Good luck at your meeting.