Hillary, Bernie, and Race

[bourbonfan]

I read an article today on CNN today titled "How Hillary Clinton will go after Bernie Sanders on race" (sorry the link is missing, I'm having difficulty copy/pasting it into this text box). The gist of it was that Bernie Sander's stance on race was from an economic perspective. Hillary Clinton was quoted as saying, "By that I mean, there are some who say, 'Well racism is a result of economic inequality.' I don't believe that." And well, to a certain extrent, the article is correct in that Bernie Sanders is focusing on economic inequality over racial inequality; he believes economic inequality has to be tackled in order to combat racial inequality. He believes focusing on the racial issues first, would be treating the symptoms and not the disease.

But I guess I fail to see why this would make Hillary a better candidate? I get that Hillary is making all these speeches about race and racism, while Bernie keeps focusing on economic inequality, but he isn't against racial inequality, he just hasn't made it a talking point. Bernie Sanders supported Rev. Jesse Jackson for President, he attended Martin Luther King, Jr's March on Washington, and organized sit-ins during the Civil Rights Movement. At one of his recent rallies he stated, "In my view, it makes sense to create jobs and eduactional opportuntities for these young people rather than more and more incarceration and more and more jails." He also stated, "Our job is to create a new criminal justice system, our job is police department reform, our job is to make sure that young African Americans can walk down the street without be abused or worse." To meet it seems Bernie has actual plans to make the quality of life for minorities better in our country, through education and job opportunities.

Whereas, what exactly is Hillary's plan? Other than making speeches, how exactly is she going to fix the problem? I understand having conversations about race are important, I am constantly having these conversations and trying to raise awareness of the fact that racism is still a huge issue in our country, but that will only do so much. Asking people to put themselves in the shoes of another is great, but will that be enough to fix the problem?

So thoughts? Opinions? Is tackling income inequality a way to tackle racial inequality? Is that idea completely off base?

[sfy]

I don't know who is advising Hillary, but I really don't think she wants to go there. First of all, half the black people I know all still pissed at her for all the shade she threw at Barack during the campaign for the 08 election. She's redeemed herself to some extent because he didn't hold a grudge, but still.  And half the other half are pissed at her for her All Lives Matter comment. I think, somewhere in her mind, she thinks that many black people feel for her what they felt for Bill, and I think she's off-base.

As for the actual question, I think the idea of tackling income equality and thinking it will solve racial inequality is a bit like trickle down economics, but with slightly better odds.

[chedifuen]

Aug 4, 2015 20:45:31 GMT -5 sfy said:

As for the actual question, I think the idea of tackling income equality and thinking it will solve racial inequality is a bit like trickle down economics, but with slightly better odds.

I completely agree. I also think Bernie comes across as thinking the problems of poor white people are the exact same as the problems of minorities. I don't think he's racist by any means but I think he either doesn't really understand the complexities of race relations in this country or he's doing a poor job explaining his stances. 

Zips up my flamesuit, but i'm pretty sick of white men coming in to solve the problems women and minorities are facing. HRC isn't perfect but I think she's better suited to understand and actually do something.

[ESF]

Aug 4, 2015 20:45:31 GMT -5 sfy said:

I don't know who is advising Hillary, but I really don't think she wants to go there. First of all, half the black people I know all still pissed at her for all the shade she threw at Barack during the campaign for the 08 election. She's redeemed herself to some extent because he didn't hold a grudge, but still.  And half the other half are pissed at her for her All Lives Matter comment. I think, somewhere in her mind, she thinks that many black people feel for her what they felt for Bill, and I think she's off-base.

As for the actual question, I think the idea of tackling income equality and thinking it will solve racial inequality is a bit like trickle down economics, but with slightly better odds.

On your first paragraph: one of her senior advisors is Maya Harris, who has done a lot of work on race, justice, crime, and policing. She's the sister of CA AG Kamala Harris.  So she's got some good people.

I do think the fact that her first speech after announcing her run was a lengthy discussion on criminal justice and mass incarceration, is noteworthy and a fairly bold step.  Talk is cheap, obviously, and the All Lives Matter comment was awful. But -- and admittedly, I'm now paying attention to what people are saying about racial justice and discrimination more so now than I did in the past, so this could be confirmation bias or whatever that phenomenon is --  it does seem like she's talking more about them than I recall any other candidate ever talking about them, and some of the speeches have been excellent.  Even if she gets none of this accomplished, I'm trying to remain optimistic that at least it's part of the national conversation, and perhaps support will continue to grow for reform in the future. 

On the second: I may have to borrow that. Perfect.

[sfy]

Aug 4, 2015 21:14:16 GMT -5 ESF said:

Aug 4, 2015 20:45:31 GMT -5 sfy said:

I don't know who is advising Hillary, but I really don't think she wants to go there. First of all, half the black people I know all still pissed at her for all the shade she threw at Barack during the campaign for the 08 election. She's redeemed herself to some extent because he didn't hold a grudge, but still.  And half the other half are pissed at her for her All Lives Matter comment. I think, somewhere in her mind, she thinks that many black people feel for her what they felt for Bill, and I think she's off-base.

As for the actual question, I think the idea of tackling income equality and thinking it will solve racial inequality is a bit like trickle down economics, but with slightly better odds.

On your first paragraph: one of her senior advisors is Maya Harris, who has done a lot of work on race, justice, crime, and policing. She's the sister of CA AG Kamala Harris.  So she's got some good people.

I do think the fact that her first speech after announcing her run was a lengthy discussion on criminal justice and mass incarceration, is noteworthy and a fairly bold step.  Talk is cheap, obviously, and the All Lives Matter comment was awful. But -- and admittedly, I'm now paying attention to what people are saying about racial justice and discrimination more so now than I did in the past, so this could be confirmation bias or whatever that phenomenon is --  it does seem like she's talking more about them than I recall any other candidate ever talking about them, and some of the speeches have been excellent.  Even if she gets none of this accomplished, I'm trying to remain optimistic that at least it's part of the national conversation, and perhaps support will continue to grow for reform in the future. 

On the second: I may have to borrow that. Perfect.

Oh yes, I know of Maya Harris.  I didn't know that, that's a good look for Hillary, but I still don't think she is handling race well this go round. Or ever, really. I see her trying, (with the exception of the ALM comment, which was just so incredibly tone deaf) but maybe what I am getting is just something that I hear people say about her anyway, which is that what she says sometimes feels disingenuous.  Her biggest competitor is Bernie Sanders, who, I swear, I still don't think half of the AA population could identify in a line up (and that is no shade to my people and all the shade to his campaign) and the GOP line up is looking like a parody of bigots and classists, and most black people are still like, "Eh, I just don't know...do we have anyone better than Hillary?"  Although it makes me cringe, she is married to the guy some black people call the first black president and she has Obama's support.  She should have the AA vote in the bag, and yet, she doesn't.  Something is wrong with that.

[laurenpetro]

Does she officially have Obama's support? From what I understand he's holding out to see if Biden is running.

I feel like Sanders is getting stuck in the weeds of policy and isn't going to get to the big picture in time to make a big push for the real primary action. I hope I'm wrong because if nothing else I like variety. I just feel like he's not there yet.

[sfy]

Aug 4, 2015 21:35:05 GMT -5 laurenpetro said:

Does she officially have Obama's support? From what I understand he's holding out to see if Biden is running.

I feel like Sanders is getting stuck in the weeds of policy and isn't going to get to the big picture in time to make a big push for the real primary action. I hope I'm wrong because if nothing else I like variety. I just feel like he's not there yet.

True.  Support is probably strong, I should have said he's been supportive. 

I also shouldn't have said she doesn't have the vote in the bag, just that it doesn't seem like she does to me based on my conversations and internet travels lol.

I agree with you re Bernie.

[laurenpetro]

Aug 4, 2015 21:44:35 GMT -5 sfy said:

Aug 4, 2015 21:35:05 GMT -5 laurenpetro said:

Does she officially have Obama's support? From what I understand he's holding out to see if Biden is running.

I feel like Sanders is getting stuck in the weeds of policy and isn't going to get to the big picture in time to make a big push for the real primary action. I hope I'm wrong because if nothing else I like variety. I just feel like he's not there yet.

True.  Support is probably strong, I should have said he's been supportive. 

I also shouldn't have said she doesn't have the vote in the bag, just that it doesn't seem like she does to me based on my conversations and internet travels lol.

I agree with you re Bernie.

I don't disagree with you about her vote. I get the impression that her camp is surprised they have to work this hard at it and easily stumbles because of that.

[heyjude]

Bernie also doesn't seem to have a lot to say about gender either. You can't just talk about generic "economic injustice" and hope that solves institualized racism and sexism. Generic talk about economic justice will however definitely benefit white man. White (man) washing the unique problems that various subjugated classes face doesn't solve things like police brutality, the fact that someone can think Latinos are just your toilet bowl washers and nothing more, or the gender pay gap, or the many other real issues that affect anyone who isn't a white male in 2015 America. It's okay for him to admit that some of us face economic injustices that are unique to our gender or race.

All that aside, Bernie seems like his heart is the right, albeit antiquated, place. If you really want to feel awful about life and the future of this country, go read any article that discusses Bernie's race problem and read what HIS supporters have to say. Bernie may be decent but his supporters, at least those supporters that leave anonymous comments after articles, are downright scary, ignorant, and yes, racist.

[bourbonfan]

Aug 4, 2015 21:29:41 GMT -5 sfy said:

Aug 4, 2015 21:14:16 GMT -5 ESF said:

On your first paragraph: one of her senior advisors is Maya Harris, who has done a lot of work on race, justice, crime, and policing. She's the sister of CA AG Kamala Harris.  So she's got some good people.

I do think the fact that her first speech after announcing her run was a lengthy discussion on criminal justice and mass incarceration, is noteworthy and a fairly bold step.  Talk is cheap, obviously, and the All Lives Matter comment was awful. But -- and admittedly, I'm now paying attention to what people are saying about racial justice and discrimination more so now than I did in the past, so this could be confirmation bias or whatever that phenomenon is --  it does seem like she's talking more about them than I recall any other candidate ever talking about them, and some of the speeches have been excellent.  Even if she gets none of this accomplished, I'm trying to remain optimistic that at least it's part of the national conversation, and perhaps support will continue to grow for reform in the future. 

On the second: I may have to borrow that. Perfect.

Oh yes, I know of Maya Harris.  I didn't know that, that's a good look for Hillary, but I still don't think she is handling race well this go round. Or ever, really. I see her trying, (with the exception of the ALM comment, which was just so incredibly tone deaf) but maybe what I am getting is just something that I hear people say about her anyway, which is that what she says sometimes feels disingenuous.  Her biggest competitor is Bernie Sanders, who, I swear, I still don't think half of the AA population could identify in a line up (and that is no shade to my people and all the shade to his campaign) and the GOP line up is looking like a parody of bigots and classists, and most black people are still like, "Eh, I just don't know...do we have anyone better than Hillary?"  Although it makes me cringe, she is married to the guy some black people call the first black president and she has Obama's support.  She should have the AA vote in the bag, and yet, she doesn't.  Something is wrong with that.

I think that's what bothered me about the article; that I consider Hillary to come across as disingenuous. It just seems like a lot of lip service, especially considering how her stance has evolved since Bernie became competition for her.

[bourbonfan]

Aug 4, 2015 23:35:06 GMT -5 heyjude said:

Bernie also doesn't seem to have a lot to say about gender either. You can't just talk about generic "economic injustice" and hope that solves institualized racism and sexism. Generic talk about economic justice will however definitely benefit white man. White (man) washing the unique problems that various subjugated classes face doesn't solve things like police brutality, the fact that someone can think Latinos are just your toilet bowl washers and nothing more, or the gender pay gap, or the many other real issues that affect anyone who isn't a white male in 2015 America. It's okay for him to admit that some of us face economic injustices that are unique to our gender or race.

All that aside, Bernie seems like his heart is the right, albeit antiquated, place. If you really want to feel awful about life and the future of this country, go read any article that discusses Bernie's race problem and read what HIS supporters have to say. Bernie may be decent but his supporters, at least those supporters that leave anonymous comments after articles, are downright scary, ignorant, and yes, racist.

I'm surprised to read that you don't consider him vocal on women's issues. He's supported numerous equal pay legislations, paid family leave, a women's right to choose and supported a number of different bills regarding the healthcare interests of women. His voting record shows a consistent support of women's rights.

[heyjude]

Aug 5, 2015 2:41:18 GMT -5 bourbonfan said:

Aug 4, 2015 23:35:06 GMT -5 heyjude said:

Bernie also doesn't seem to have a lot to say about gender either. You can't just talk about generic "economic injustice" and hope that solves institualized racism and sexism. Generic talk about economic justice will however definitely benefit white man. White (man) washing the unique problems that various subjugated classes face doesn't solve things like police brutality, the fact that someone can think Latinos are just your toilet bowl washers and nothing more, or the gender pay gap, or the many other real issues that affect anyone who isn't a white male in 2015 America. It's okay for him to admit that some of us face economic injustices that are unique to our gender or race.

All that aside, Bernie seems like his heart is the right, albeit antiquated, place. If you really want to feel awful about life and the future of this country, go read any article that discusses Bernie's race problem and read what HIS supporters have to say. Bernie may be decent but his supporters, at least those supporters that leave anonymous comments after articles, are downright scary, ignorant, and yes, racist.

I'm surprised to read that you don't consider him vocal on women's issues. He's supported numerous equal pay legislations, paid family leave, a women's right to choose and supported a number of different bills regarding the healthcare interests of women. His voting record shows a consistent support of women's rights.

I'm aware of his voting record.