Teaching Children about Privilege

[1confused1]

Was he doing it to be mean? I'm confused why he got in trouble.

[sailorgray]

What does it have to do with privilege?

[gummybear]

Did he get in trouble at home or in school for counting? I've actually heard that it is GOOD to have kids be mindful of differences like skin color and not prohibit them from pointing it out or noticing. If he is fact based, having him see that there are 3 black students but 12 white students could lead into an important discussion about the challenges the "minority number" children face in society and day to day life, and how the majority are advantaged simply because of their number.

I do hope someone has some book suggestions though!

[Narwhal]

Aug 28, 2015 9:05:55 GMT -5 1confused1 said:

Was he doing it to be mean? I'm confused why he got in trouble.

Your user name is fitting! But seriously, was he just using race as another way of "grouping" things to count? Like counting boys/girls, blonde/brunette, adult/student. If he is more factual and likes counting, he is probably counting a million different things in his head all day long. 
However, if he was counting in a racist or derogatory way, then yeah, he needs to be taught how that isn't appropriate. 

[1confused1]

Aug 28, 2015 9:10:22 GMT -5 Narwhal said:

Aug 28, 2015 9:05:55 GMT -5 1confused1 said:

Was he doing it to be mean? I'm confused why he got in trouble.

Your user name is fitting! But seriously, was he just using race as another way of "grouping" things to count? Like counting boys/girls, blonde/brunette, adult/student. If he is more factual and likes counting, he is probably counting a million different things in his head all day long. 
However, if he was counting in a racist or derogatory way, then yeah, he needs to be taught how that isn't appropriate. 

Lol!

It sounds like it was harmless and I'm sorry some were offended. I don't think this has anything to do with privilege, but opens the door for a great conversation about differences in people.

[mommytutu]

I'm not sure that makes sense. Privilege and race are totally different.

[Narwhal]

Aug 28, 2015 9:12:41 GMT -5 1confused1 said:

Aug 28, 2015 9:10:22 GMT -5 Narwhal said:

Lol!

It sounds like it was harmless and I'm sorry some were offended. I don't think this has anything to do with privilege, but opens the door for a great conversation about differences in people.

Yeah, it sounds like the teacher handled this poorly and should have had a discussion about differences. She could have even tied this into art and how all the variations of art is what makes it beautiful, just like people! 

[gummybear]

Aug 28, 2015 9:15:35 GMT -5 Narwhal said:

Aug 28, 2015 9:12:41 GMT -5 1confused1 said:

Lol!

It sounds like it was harmless and I'm sorry some were offended. I don't think this has anything to do with privilege, but opens the door for a great conversation about differences in people.

Yeah, it sounds like the teacher handled this poorly and should have had a discussion about differences. She could have even tied this into art and how all the variations of art is what makes it beautiful, just like people! 

I would also want to know more about how the teacher handled it. I think as adults we can be hyper-sensitive about kids pointing out race because it makes US uncomfortable. Not that I am doubting that the children were offended, but it's quite possible the teacher was trying to enforce the whole, "we don't see color!" lesson. Like narwhal said, she could have had it lead into a "How many people have curls? How many have red hair? How many have freckles?" type discussion to point out differences.

[underwaterrhymes]

Aug 28, 2015 9:13:11 GMT -5 mommytutu said:

I'm not sure that makes sense. Privilege and race are totally different.

Well, yes and no.

White privilege is a real thing. So they are not mutually exclusive.

But it is okay to notice differences without judgment, which it sounds like is what happened here. I don't think he should have gotten in trouble if all he was doing was counting, but I do think it could be used as a springboard to talk about privilege as there are definite benefits to being both white and the majority.

[ninjabridemom]

I agree w gummy. Everything I've read has said DO NOT RAISE COLORBLIND CHILDREN. As such we discuss differences all the time, always with the mindset of celebrating differences and everyone is to be respected and loved. And this is hard w/o tokenizing, but I think increasing diversity in your own life is important too. Books, TV, etc. We are lucky in this regard because the boys go to a very diverse school -- and we are uncomfortable, at this point, with the thought of them attending the more racially homogenized elementary schools in the town. Visibility is crucially important for kids of color -- it is also important for white kids.

We have been reading a lot of black literature lately for the kids -- there are beautifully illustrated books w Langston Hughes poems for instance. ETA oh @astrid I think Chocolate Me would be good for your friend, written by Taye Diggs. And we converse while they watch TV about gender and race -- "I love that they are showing that girl standing up for herself!" "I don't like that there are no people of color in Fireman Sam. Can black people be firefighters too? What about women? Can ANYONE be firefighters?" That sort of thing. There was a show we used to watch, Justin Time, which was problematic in a few ways (we stopped watching it, it broke) but I said a few times "I don't like how they are talking about this or that. We SHOULD do blahblahblah."

I have also been doing a lot of introspection WRT race and I think that white people are going to fuck up sometimes. I think accepting (NOT liking or being comfortable or staying stagnant with) the fact that you will mess up and be racist sometimes, WHILE being willing to evaluate and change those tendencies and thought processes, is the first step to addressing race as a white person. The more aware you are of your own fuck ups, the more you can fix them in yourself and address them in your kids. I think our first sit-down discussion about race was not very successful because it ended with the boys yelling "I WHITE! I WHITE! YOU WHITE!" I should have addressed it differently.

[sailorgray]

Honestly, I think parents are extra sensitive to anything their kids may say that have to do with race. They sometimes forget that kids are being kids and just noticing differences. My 6 year old said something yesterday that if an adult said would totally be racist. I know what he meant, though, but I went numb when he said it bc i was so afraid of what those around thought.

[mommytutu]

Aug 28, 2015 9:20:46 GMT -5 underwaterrhymes said:

Aug 28, 2015 9:13:11 GMT -5 mommytutu said:

I'm not sure that makes sense. Privilege and race are totally different.

Well, yes and no.

White privilege is a real thing. So they are not mutually exclusive.

But it is okay to notice differences without judgment, which it sounds like is what happened here. I don't think he should have gotten in trouble if all he was doing was counting, but I do think it could be used as a springboard to talk about privilege as there are definite benefits to being both white and the majority.

Agree.

[ninjabridemom]

Just another point on the literature, visibility, etc -- I think the most important part of allyship is letting the population you're allying for speak, and you do most of the listening. I think if the parent here gives the kid more literature and tv etc BY POC and let their voices take the lead, she will be more successful. I think that is really, really important, and that's based on a lot of reading by populations I hope to ally for.

[underwaterrhymes]

Aug 28, 2015 9:28:53 GMT -5 @cse1960 said:

No one likes to have their differences pointed out, especially differences that historically have led to oppression (and worse) but for other differences as well. A 9 yo should have this level of social skill, where we all understand we don't go around the room counting out loud and pointing out people's differences (gosh, there's 1 amputee in the room, there's 2 kids with crutches, four girls, 8 African Americans and the rest of us are white boys"? Yeah, no.) The "I was only counting them up" sounds disingenuous to me; a 9 yo is not in need of practice counting from one to 10. If he's this tone deaf socially, he does need some guidance and I'm glad his mom is getting on it.

This sounds like a mix of being (mostly) a social skills issue, but also an empathy issue, a smart ass issue as well as someone needs a lesson in race relations. I'm glad your friend is addressing it. She does not need a book to teach her kid lessons in being kind and inclusive but Miss Manners' Guide To Rearing Perfect Children is pretty helpful on a lot of fronts.

(and it does not really seem like a 'privilege' issue to me here, but maybe I'm missing it)

Oh wow. I missed the part where he was 9.

In that case, I definitely can understand why the teacher reacted as she did. This is not a four-year old practicing counting or noticing for the first time that his best friend is a different color than he is.

He should know better and if he doesn't this is hopefully a teachable moment for him.

[thebreakfastclub]

My son and I were at the grocery store the other day when he loudly said "WHOA that man's on wheels" repeatedly about a guy in a wheelchair. But he's 2.5, not 9.

[underwaterrhymes]

Aug 28, 2015 9:49:12 GMT -5 thebreakfastclub said:

My son and I were at the grocery store the other day when he loudly said "WHOA that man's on wheels" repeatedly about a guy in a wheelchair. But he's 2.5, not 9.

When I was four, I asked a lady in a wheelchair for a ride in her stroller.

Karma. I fear it.

[05heel]

Without knowing exactly what happened and why he got in trouble, I can only speak in general terms here. But I do think there's an appreciable amount of privilege involved when a 9-year-old can be all be all wide-eyed and innocent about why counting out the blacks and whites (or others) in a room could be uncomfortable for some. At 9 years old, it's very clear to many black children that there is something "wrong" with being black. Even if their awareness is limited at that age, it's still there, and that not-quite-understanding awareness is actually more uncomfortable for young children.

Nine years old is a little old for this level of innocence, IMO. But I'll acknowledge that this could be unfair of me to say, and that my own experiences are coloring my opinion. My daughter is 3, and I recently had to talk to her teacher about the other kids calling her Brownie. The teacher is black, we actually had a good chuckle (because it's totally innocent and kind of funny), she shut it down, and we've all moved on. I mean, she is very brown! Lol. She loved the nickname and she likes talking about how her friends look. She'll like it a lot less when she's 9, and that's to be expected and perfectly ok.

All of that is to say that sometimes colorblind is ok. Noticing differences is ok too. Pointing them out apropos of nothing is sometimes cool, and sometimes not.

[05heel]

Oh, and I had to stop telling her "you're doing a heck of a job, Brownie", which is one of my favorite George W lines ever, because of the daycare nickname sitch above. My amusement was short-lived, and that sucks. Oh well. Lol.

[gummybear]

Aug 28, 2015 9:53:47 GMT -5 05heel said:

Without knowing exactly what happened and why he got in trouble, I can only speak in general terms here. But I do think there's an appreciable amount of privilege involved when a 9-year-old can be all be all wide-eyed and innocent about why counting out the blacks and whites (or others) in a room could be uncomfortable for some. At 9 years old, it's very clear to many black children that there is something "wrong" with being black. Even if their awareness is limited at that age, it's still there, and that not-quite-understanding awareness is actually more uncomfortable for young children.

Nine years old is a little old for this level of innocence, IMO. But I'll acknowledge that this could be unfair of me to say, and that my own experiences are coloring my opinion. My daughter is 3, and I recently had to talk to her teacher about the other kids calling her Brownie. The teacher is black, we actually had a good chuckle (because it's totally innocent and kind of funny), she shut it down, and we've all moved on. I mean, she is very brown! Lol. She loved the nickname and she likes talking about how her friends look. She'll like it a lot less when she's 9, and that's to be expected and perfectly ok.

All of that is to say that sometimes colorblind is ok. Noticing differences is ok too. Pointing them out apropos of nothing is sometimes cool, and sometimes not.

When my oldest was 3, I had my "life lesson" because of something similar. She and her friend in the gym daycare had nicknames for all the babies. There was one black baby who was VERY chubby and very obv. still in diapers toddling around. They called him "Brownie Butt". All the nicknames for the babies were silly like that but I only reacted to that one, because in my mind, it was offensive. But to a three-year-old, he was brown, and his diaper made him have a big butt. Likewise, we shut it down, but after talking to people who knew better, I was able to explain to her that yes, he was brown, just like she was white, but we do not nickname people based on their color, instead of NO, BABY IS NOT BROWN WE DON'T SEE BROWN BABIES, JUST BABIES!!! 

[Deleted]

1) My DS is totally going to be that kid. He counts EVERYTHING. He will be giving the kids a fucking poll about their heritage and making a fucking pie chart while I sit in the principal's office.
2) I think at 9 I might explain that other children may feel unfairly called out by the counting, because MANY MANY people see children/ people of color as less than in our society. That is OF COURSE REALLY REALLY AWFUL AND WRONG, but it is also a shitty sad reality. I would tell him that pointing out the minority of children of color in his class probably made them kind of uncomfortable. That it is okay to notice differences in people and to even talk about them openly BUT quantifying them may bring up some tension and pain in others regardless of his intent.

[05heel]

I know privilege is probably the most overused word of 2015, but it's interesting to me that this isn't seen as a privilege issue for many here. Not judging, just noticing, as my yoga teacher would say. :-) It jumped right out at me. My first thought was, "nine year old doesn't see why this is a problem? Must be nice." Is this black privilege?

[Deleted]

Aug 28, 2015 10:02:45 GMT -5 @astrid said:

I would guess he's near being on the spectrum if he isn't on it (in terms of autism/social skills), but don't know specifics. I really am just trying to help my friend.

I used to work with folks on the spectrum and with various other developmental disabilities. We had to male staff named Corey with the SAME LAST INITIAL. One was Dominican, and the other was Irish. 

I spent YEARS trying to get them to stop calling them " Chocolate Corey and Vanilla Corey". YEARS. Like diversity trainings, human rights meetings, etc. 

They all thought I was a loon and just kept on calling them that until one of the Corey's left for Nursing School. 

FAIL. 

[Deleted]

Ya know what I REALLY fucking admire. When someone REALIZES that they didn't recognize their privilege or is in some way casually racist or sexist or phobic or whatever that never would have dawned on them AND THEN they work on it and try to change it.

That shit is HARD to come to terms with and the fact that they try to grow and learn and engage really really fucking matters.

I admire your friend for helping her kids with this. It's all to easy to sweep this shit under the rug and not confront it in ourselves and our families.

[05heel]

Aug 28, 2015 9:18:59 GMT -5 toledo said:

I just can't get my head around how this has anything to do with privilege. Unless, of course, kids of other races are forbidden from counting in that class.

I'm trying to understand, but I'm not following here. 

[insominac]

As one of two black kids in pretty much all of my classes growing up, I would have been pretty annoyed to be counted by another student. Way to make me feel even more of an "other" than I already feel, kid.

If I were this kid's mom, I would tell him that while there's nothing wrong with noticing the outside of people - the more interesting story is what's inside them. And as a social scientist (lol), I would suggest thinking about other categories that would encourage him actually getting to know his classmates. Number of right handed vs. left handed kids, or the % of kids who were born each month, kids favorite school subject, etc.

I think that's much easier than discussing the systemic and structural economic, political, and racial issues that led to the neighborhood segregation which was responsible for me being one of two black kids in my classes. Not to mention the school to prison pipeline that got the few black and Latino kids in the school stuck in the low level and SPED classes. (There's the privilege part.)

[05heel]

Aug 28, 2015 12:25:53 GMT -5 mofongo said:

Aug 28, 2015 11:47:36 GMT -5 05heel said:

I'm trying to understand, but I'm not following here. 

I think the fact that this child is on the spectrum greatly changes things.

Also, can we use 'your head is lodged in your ass' for a while, instead of privilege? 

Ex: You better check how far your head is lodged up your ass.

I agree with that.  If he's on the spectrum, there's another issue at play that likely has little to do with privilege.  BUT everyone should remember that according to this story, there were still a number of little black kids who had their feelings hurt at school.  We're viewing this with the benefit of an adult's perspective and understanding.  The black kids get to be aware, but perspective and understanding are still years away. We all know that children internalize these kind of things, and it's weird for me to watch adults kind of gloss over what I think are these kids' legitimate feelings.

Even if a child is not on the spectrum, counting others isn't inherently wrong, so there's not a lot of blame to be put on him either.  He just doesn't understand, and the mom wants to help her kid.  That's great!  Nobody in this situation really needs to be defended. 

[auntie]

It's concerning that he hasn't the social acumen to have absorbed why counting people into categories might be insensitive. At 9, that's kind of a zero order skill in a diverse community. By 9, even DS who is on spectrum and shares the doubled sided sword of being compelled to systemize data and having less of a filter than most, would have known not to voice this publicly even if he was driven to count.

Michelle Garcia Winner, an SLP who works with kids on spectrum and with ADHD, has some great books about teaching empathy- i.e. the understanding of how someone might feel based on what we do and say around them. Thinking About You, Thinking About Me is a good one for this age group.