Based on the last training cycle, I learned that I am very bad at judging effort by feel. I think I just didn't know what easy should feel like. So I decided to take 4 months before my next marathon cycle to train almost exclusively at a low heart rate to see how I did.
I'm 10 weeks in and so far, I love it. I feel 100% recovered so fast after my long runs. I love having a real time objective measure of when I need to dial it back. And I've only done a couple of speed work outs in the last 10 weeks, but when I do them, I LOVE knowing how hard I can go to get a really good hard workout, but not feel destroyed the next day. At first it was totally humbling to see my paces. But slowly but surely my pace has come down and at this point, it's fallen by about 1.5-2min per mile consistently. I have 6 more weeks before marathon training begins, so I hope I can get my pace down another 30 seconds in that time.
Now my question: I don't understand how to race like this. I really like training this way so far - but what is the target heart rate range for half marathon or marathon race effort? It feels weird to have a pace goal for a race when I have focused only on HR during training.
I have a half marathon next weekend - I haven't decided how I'm going to run. I may treat it like a training run and run slow or I may use it as an opportunity to see what my pace is like in a race situation at a target HR zone. But what should that zone be? What range can one reasonably expect to sustain over a marathon or half marathon? I can't seem to find any useful advice on this.
I have extensive training and knowledge on this subject, so I could go on and on. Let me try to answer this as simply as I can so I don't ramble.
I would suggest buying Total Heart Rate Training by Joe Friel. He breaks it all down and offers examples of how to do it using periodization.
That being said, so many factors other than age, gender, fitness level, etc. go into HRT. Are you on medications? Did you have caffeine recently, etc.? Many things can alter your HR, making it difficult to be very precise.
Do you have access to VO2 Max testing? If you did, that would give you a base and then you can progress and monitor what your body is doing. Another great resource would be to train using power (wattage), which can give you real time output on what exactly you are producing.
If you would like some formulas or for me to get more in depth, please let me know. I kind of (heart) these convos!!
I have extensive training and knowledge on this subject, so I could go on and on. Let me try to answer this as simply as I can so I don't ramble.
I would suggest buying Total Heart Rate Training by Joe Friel. He breaks it all down and offers examples of how to do it using periodization.
That being said, so many factors other than age, gender, fitness level, etc. go into HRT. Are you on medications? Did you have caffeine recently, etc.? Many things can alter your HR, making it difficult to be very precise.
Do you have access to VO2 Max testing? If you did, that would give you a base and then you can progress and monitor what your body is doing. Another great resource would be to train using power (wattage), which can give you real time output on what exactly you are producing.
If you would like some formulas or for me to get more in depth, please let me know. I kind of (heart) these convos!!
Yay I was hoping someone here would be an expert. Let's talk!
On point 1: I can definitely check out that book thanks for the rec!
On point 2: I am on some medication, and i can see that holding HR constant, there is some variance in my pace on the same courses- so yeah definitely not precise. But the underlying trend is what I'm trying to focus on since I"m not an elite or even a very talented age grouper (clearly , lol!)
On point 3: I could do VO2 max testing, but wasn't sure it was totally worth it for me at my level. I was thinking someday of a power meter for my bike, but running?
and give me all the formulas! There is SO much info out there with confusing ranges for various 'zones'
I am so glad that this information was appropriate for you.
Simplest formula (which could mean, least accurate - but it is a start). 208 - (age x .7) = Max HR For example: (36 x .7) = 25.2. 208-25 = 183 MHR. Multiply that number (183) by whatever percentage you wish (70, 75, 80, etc.)
Karvonen formula (a bit more accurate because it uses resting HR). Target Heart Rate = ((max HR − resting HR) × %Intensity) + resting HR. You can figure our RHR by wearing a HRM (or whatever), waking up naturally (not by alarm) for a few days/weeks and recording that number. Somewhere between 50-80 could be normal depending on many factors.
That will give you a nice base as to what is going on. Yes, a power meter on a bike will be so beneficial for you! If you ride indoors, Star Trac (Spinning) makes a Blade Power Ion that is amazing!!! I got certified to teach on that bike in May.
I am so glad that this information was appropriate for you.
Simplest formula (which could mean, least accurate - but it is a start). 208 - (age x .7) = Max HR For example: (36 x .7) = 25.2. 208-25 = 183 MHR. Multiply that number (183) by whatever percentage you wish (70, 75, 80, etc.)
Karvonen formula (a bit more accurate because it uses resting HR). Target Heart Rate = ((max HR − resting HR) × %Intensity) + resting HR. You can figure our RHR by wearing a HRM (or whatever), waking up naturally (not by alarm) for a few days/weeks and recording that number. Somewhere between 50-80 could be normal depending on many factors.
That will give you a nice base as to what is going on. Yes, a power meter on a bike will be so beneficial for you! If you ride indoors, Star Trac (Spinning) makes a Blade Power Ion that is amazing!!! I got certified to teach on that bike in May.
Keep the questions coming!
Ok this MHR issue... I did a little test earlier in the summer and ran around the track to warm up, then did progressively harder intervals until i felt like I was maxed out. My max heart rate during that test was 10BPM higher than the MHR predicted by the forumlas. I've also achieved that higher than 'mhr' on difficult hill workouts. Could my heart rate monitor inaccurate?
And now I definitely have to test my resting heart rate
Okay, forgive my ignorance and incredibly stupid question, and I absolutely intend to read up on this topic (especially since I have the 225!), but is heart rate training supposed to help you improve your speed?
Post by fuckyourcouch on Sept 16, 2015 17:38:43 GMT -5
i am also interested in this conversation, because i feel like my HR during runs is pretty high. i don't feel any side effects or ill in any way from it (unless it's really hot, but i definitely blame that on heat because i never feel that way in winter), but i have always been concerned when i read that i should be at x% of my MHR, because based on where i'm at, i feel like i'd have to be walking to achieve that. i have also been able to improve times all year even with my HR being "high".
my resting HR is really low though...usually 40-50. i have low BP. i am on a million medications. i have asthma. so i don't really know what to make of it.
Okay, forgive my ignorance and incredibly stupid question, and I absolutely intend to read up on this topic (especially since I have the 225!), but is heart rate training supposed to help you improve your speed?
I don't know about speed- I know it's supposed to improve endurance, which is good for me. For me, I am hoping that having a metric that tells me for sure when I am running too hard will help me stay uninjured.
Okay, forgive my ignorance and incredibly stupid question, and I absolutely intend to read up on this topic (especially since I have the 225!), but is heart rate training supposed to help you improve your speed?
I don't know about speed- I know it's supposed to improve endurance, which is good for me. For me, I am hoping that having a metric that tells me for sure when I am running too hard will help me stay uninjured.
Yeah, looking back "speed" wasn't the word I actually meant. I should have asked if this was supposed to translate into better marathon (or longer races in general) time/performance.
fuckyourcouch, I totally agree when you say you think you'd have to be walking to achieve the "right" HR. I tried running by HR for the first time today and I literally don't think I could have gone slower and had it still qualify as jogging!
Ok, can someone help me understand this? My hr always seems to be fairly low. Someone i know told me she got faster by running slower and then said "you need to build a cardio base, dont do all your runs at an all out pace" - yeah thats not a problem. My heart rate never gets high when im just out running, i never get uncomfortable (unless its due to heat). I also find when im at orange theory, when im wearing a hrm, i have the hardest time getting my heart rate into zone 4 and keeping it there for more than, say, a minute, without feeling like death. There are people who stay in zone 4 for 20 minutes at a time! I also cant get it super high and keep it there when i swim either.
al320 - I am by no means an expert at understanding heart rate training, but the one thing I try and keep in mind is these "rules" aren't really rules but guidelines. You might need to adjust the zones based on own personal experiences. I'd start by determining where you can be for 15-20 minutes while feeling close to death, but not actually dying and then try and improve your performance. Personally, I have a hard time sustaining this place in a non race situation.
katyintx - Yes, it is supposed to improve your overall performance and keep you healthy. Pete Pfitzinger talks about heart rate training a lot in his books if you want a better reference.
al320 - I am by no means an expert at understanding heart rate training, but the one thing I try and keep in mind is these "rules" aren't really rules but guidelines. You might need to adjust the zones based on own personal experiences. I'd start by determining where you can be for 15-20 minutes while feeling close to death, but not actually dying and then try and improve your performance. Personally, I have a hard time sustaining this place in a non race situation.
katyintx - Yes, it is supposed to improve your overall performance and keep you healthy. Pete Pfitzinger talks about heart rate training a lot in his books if you want a better reference.
Thanks! Yes, ive thought maybe my max is way different than the estimates based on age. And yes, i have the se problem.
al320, it doesn't surprise me that you have a substantially better endurance base than I do considering how long you've been doing this.
katyintx and fuckyourcouch I get it. I was basically walking in the beginning. Like technically running, but kind of remarkable that I was moving forward. But at this point I'm doing about 10 min miles at this heart rate on shorter runs and about 10:12-10:25 on long runs. I'm hoping to drop my pace to 10:00 or just below on the long runs befor my marathon cycle starts. It's required much much patience, but I see it working and I really hope it helps me be a stronger runner. I've heard the the key to long distance endurance is not to be as fast as possible, but to slow down as little as possible. We'll see!
al320, it doesn't surprise me that you have a substantially better endurance base than I do considering how long you've been doing this.
@katintx and fuckyourcouch I get it. I was basically walking in the beginning. Like technically running, but kind of remarkable that I was moving forward. But at this point I'm doing about 10 min miles at this heart rate on shorter runs and about 10:12-10:25 on long runs. I'm hoping to drop my pace to 10:00 or just below on the long runs befor my marathon cycle starts. It's required much much patience, but I see it working and I really hope it helps me be a stronger runner. I've heard the the key to long distance endurance is not to be the fast as possible, but to slow down as little as possible. We'll see!
al320, it doesn't surprise me that you have a substantially better endurance base than I do considering how long you've been doing this.
katyintx and fuckyourcouch I get it. I was basically walking in the beginning. Like technically running, but kind of remarkable that I was moving forward. But at this point I'm doing about 10 min miles at this heart rate on shorter runs and about 10:12-10:25 on long runs. I'm hoping to drop my pace to 10:00 or just below on the long runs befor my marathon cycle starts. It's required much much patience, but I see it working and I really hope it helps me be a stronger runner. I've heard the the key to long distance endurance is not to be as fast as possible, but to slow down as little as possible. We'll see!
Impressive! How long did it take you to get to that point?
al320, it doesn't surprise me that you have a substantially better endurance base than I do considering how long you've been doing this.
katyintx and fuckyourcouch I get it. I was basically walking in the beginning. Like technically running, but kind of remarkable that I was moving forward. But at this point I'm doing about 10 min miles at this heart rate on shorter runs and about 10:12-10:25 on long runs. I'm hoping to drop my pace to 10:00 or just below on the long runs befor my marathon cycle starts. It's required much much patience, but I see it working and I really hope it helps me be a stronger runner. I've heard the the key to long distance endurance is not to be as fast as possible, but to slow down as little as possible. We'll see!
Impressive! How long did it take you to get to that point?
About 10 weeks lmao! So not really that impressive give how much time ive sunk into it at this point. On the other hand, most of those weeks were relatively low mileage during Tri training. 6 weeks to go...
This is a great discussion! I bought a book (maybe the one recommended) and tried to focus on HR training several springs ago. I wasn't super successful because I didn't do all the reading or stay diligent, but it was still helpful to make me understand easy runs vs truly hard runs and intervals. I think I may come back to this next year and try it again, so if any of you have some breakthroughs I'd love to hear about them!
ETA: If you do your training correctly in the various zones I definitely think HR training can make you faster, as well as help endurance.
This is a great discussion! I bought a book (maybe the one recommended) and tried to focus on HR training several springs ago. I wasn't super successful because I didn't do all the reading or stay diligent, but it was still helpful to make me understand easy runs vs truly hard runs and intervals. I think I may come back to this next year and try it again, so if any of you have some breakthroughs I'd love to hear about them!
ETA: If you do your training correctly in the various zones I definitely think HR training can make you faster, as well as help endurance.
I really wish I had worn a hrm last year because id love to have a point of comparison. I think I need to buy that book- I am seeing gains running at the low hr, but I don't think you are supposed to do it perpetually, right? And I still don't understand the link from hr training to race strategy.
I think I took up running because it was an easy and uncomplicated sport. How am I so confused now?
I am so glad that this information was appropriate for you.
Simplest formula (which could mean, least accurate - but it is a start). 208 - (age x .7) = Max HR For example: (36 x .7) = 25.2. 208-25 = 183 MHR. Multiply that number (183) by whatever percentage you wish (70, 75, 80, etc.)
Karvonen formula (a bit more accurate because it uses resting HR). Target Heart Rate = ((max HR − resting HR) × %Intensity) + resting HR. You can figure our RHR by wearing a HRM (or whatever), waking up naturally (not by alarm) for a few days/weeks and recording that number. Somewhere between 50-80 could be normal depending on many factors.
That will give you a nice base as to what is going on. Yes, a power meter on a bike will be so beneficial for you! If you ride indoors, Star Trac (Spinning) makes a Blade Power Ion that is amazing!!! I got certified to teach on that bike in May.
Keep the questions coming!
Ok this MHR issue... I did a little test earlier in the summer and ran around the track to warm up, then did progressively harder intervals until i felt like I was maxed out. My max heart rate during that test was 10BPM higher than the MHR predicted by the forumlas. I've also achieved that higher than 'mhr' on difficult hill workouts. Could my heart rate monitor inaccurate?
And now I definitely have to test my resting heart rate
I don't know what 10BPM means, is that a typo? Your HRM could absolutely be wrong or may need calibration.
Okay, forgive my ignorance and incredibly stupid question, and I absolutely intend to read up on this topic (especially since I have the 225!), but is heart rate training supposed to help you improve your speed?
HR training is biofeedback that you can use to help your training. It will not improve anything if you don't understand it or know how to manipulate it. For example, if you are deconditioned or just starting your fitness journey, you may take 5 minutes to get to your recovery heart rate. Once you are conditioned, this time will reduce and your RHR will lower and you will know that by knowing your HR percentages and by wearing a HRM.
i am also interested in this conversation, because i feel like my HR during runs is pretty high. i don't feel any side effects or ill in any way from it (unless it's really hot, but i definitely blame that on heat because i never feel that way in winter), but i have always been concerned when i read that i should be at x% of my MHR, because based on where i'm at, i feel like i'd have to be walking to achieve that. i have also been able to improve times all year even with my HR being "high".
my resting HR is really low though...usually 40-50. i have low BP. i am on a million medications. i have asthma. so i don't really know what to make of it.
If you have a university nearby, or a facility that offers it, I would highly recommend a VO2 max test. This is the gold standard to get you accurate results. Like I said in the PP, soooooooo many factors go into your HR, so anything could be the culprit - even stress!!
Ok, can someone help me understand this? My hr always seems to be fairly low. Someone i know told me she got faster by running slower and then said "you need to build a cardio base, dont do all your runs at an all out pace" - yeah thats not a problem. My heart rate never gets high when im just out running, i never get uncomfortable (unless its due to heat). I also find when im at orange theory, when im wearing a hrm, i have the hardest time getting my heart rate into zone 4 and keeping it there for more than, say, a minute, without feeling like death. There are people who stay in zone 4 for 20 minutes at a time! I also cant get it super high and keep it there when i swim either.
So....what am i doing wrong?
The human body is so amazing...and confusing! It is possible that you are able to run without an elevated heart rate because you have built your aerobic base - which is great and the foundation for all fitness and activity.
That being said, OT is based on interval training, which could bring you from 50%MRH up to your maximum effort HR and it is a HUGE change from your endurance running work.
I wouldn't look at it as "wrong", but being conditioned perhaps. Folks that are deconditioned, out of shape, overweight, etc., etc., will have higher HR's not always due to more "work", but just different factors.
Ok this MHR issue... I did a little test earlier in the summer and ran around the track to warm up, then did progressively harder intervals until i felt like I was maxed out. My max heart rate during that test was 10BPM higher than the MHR predicted by the forumlas. I've also achieved that higher than 'mhr' on difficult hill workouts. Could my heart rate monitor inaccurate?
And now I definitely have to test my resting heart rate
I don't know what 10BPM means, is that a typo? Your HRM could absolutely be wrong or may need calibration.
Ok, can someone help me understand this? My hr always seems to be fairly low. Someone i know told me she got faster by running slower and then said "you need to build a cardio base, dont do all your runs at an all out pace" - yeah thats not a problem. My heart rate never gets high when im just out running, i never get uncomfortable (unless its due to heat). I also find when im at orange theory, when im wearing a hrm, i have the hardest time getting my heart rate into zone 4 and keeping it there for more than, say, a minute, without feeling like death. There are people who stay in zone 4 for 20 minutes at a time! I also cant get it super high and keep it there when i swim either.
So....what am i doing wrong?
The human body is so amazing...and confusing! It is possible that you are able to run without an elevated heart rate because you have built your aerobic base - which is great and the foundation for all fitness and activity.
That being said, OT is based on interval training, which could bring you from 50%MRH up to your maximum effort HR and it is a HUGE change from your endurance running work.
I wouldn't look at it as "wrong", but being conditioned perhaps. Folks that are deconditioned, out of shape, overweight, etc., etc., will have higher HR's not always due to more "work", but just different factors.
Yes, exactly, ive always assumed it was because i do so much endruance work. But id think i could still do intervals and not feel like death? I dont know, its just funny to me when the trainers tell the people who hit zone 4, while we are still warming up, that theyre doing a great job and working hard. No doubt theyre working hard, but you shouldnt be in zone 4 in warm up!
This is a great discussion! I bought a book (maybe the one recommended) and tried to focus on HR training several springs ago. I wasn't super successful because I didn't do all the reading or stay diligent, but it was still helpful to make me understand easy runs vs truly hard runs and intervals. I think I may come back to this next year and try it again, so if any of you have some breakthroughs I'd love to hear about them!
ETA: If you do your training correctly in the various zones I definitely think HR training can make you faster, as well as help endurance.
I really wish I had worn a hrm last year because id love to have a point of comparison. I think I need to buy that book- I am seeing gains running at the low hr, but I don't think you are supposed to do it perpetually, right? And I still don't understand the link from hr training to race strategy.
I think I took up running because it was an easy and uncomplicated sport. How am I so confused now?
All athletes (including YOU!!) train before their big event, right? You may break up your training into miles or time, or whatever. What if you added another layer to that which is HRT? Say, you go for a 5 mile run but you keep it purely aerobic (65- maybe 80% MHR - or below your lactate threshold) just to build your aerobic base for 4 weeks. Then, the next week, you work in some intervals taking your HR from recovery to anaerobic, or let's just say 85%MRH. Then, the next month you work on another zone. Depending on your event, this "periodization" will help you to control your HR, which can prevent lactate build-up, which can then get you to the finish line in one piece. Without knowing your "zones", it would be awfully hard to tell where you are training. Relying on several sources is helpful too, like perceived exertion.
This was super duper simplified and not my best work, so please forgive me if I just made it more confusing. I usually present this over 75 minutes, not an online forum, lol!!!
I don't know what 10BPM means, is that a typo? Your HRM could absolutely be wrong or may need calibration.
Beats per minute.
The formulas have room for errors, for sure, so that could just be it. They aren't perfect, or accurate, just a "start" to understanding HR. A VO2 max test would really give an accurate picture.
Post by katinthehat on Sept 18, 2015 15:32:37 GMT -5
sitnspin is clearly the expert here but I'll throw in my non expert 2 cents.
For a half, I'd stay between 60-70% of your max HR for the half. Higher than that (around VO2max) is what you can sustain for roughly an hour, so you don't want to approach that until the end. Get to the half feeling good, then push from there. My max HR always is way higher than estimates and calculators when I'm in the moment because of those intangible factors.
As for why you've seen such improvement, it's widely thrown about that most athletes don't train hard or fast enough on hard/fast days or slow enough on long/slow/recovery days. Most workouts are done sort of between those two where you don't really see a lot of performance gains. When you stick to your HR, you're forced to go really hard to hit that high HR and forced to go really slow to keep it under.
sitnspin is clearly the expert here but I'll throw in my non expert 2 cents.
For a half, I'd stay between 60-70% of your max HR for the half. Higher than that (around VO2max) is what you can sustain for roughly an hour, so you don't want to approach that until the end. Get to the half feeling good, then push from there. My max HR always is way higher than estimates and calculators when I'm in the moment because of those intangible factors.
As for why you've seen such improvement, it's widely thrown about that most athletes don't train hard or fast enough on hard/fast days or slow enough on long/slow/recovery days. Most workouts are done sort of between those two where you don't really see a lot of performance gains. When you stick to your HR, you're forced to go really hard to hit that high HR and forced to go really slow to keep it under.
This is what happens to me if I don't pay attention to my HR. Everything is just kinda meh.
sitnspin is clearly the expert here but I'll throw in my non expert 2 cents.
For a half, I'd stay between 60-70% of your max HR for the half. Higher than that (around VO2max) is what you can sustain for roughly an hour, so you don't want to approach that until the end. Get to the half feeling good, then push from there. My max HR always is way higher than estimates and calculators when I'm in the moment because of those intangible factors.
As for why you've seen such improvement, it's widely thrown about that most athletes don't train hard or fast enough on hard/fast days or slow enough on long/slow/recovery days. Most workouts are done sort of between those two where you don't really see a lot of performance gains. When you stick to your HR, you're forced to go really hard to hit that high HR and forced to go really slow to keep it under.
I know all of this is not an exact science, but this is yet another source of confusion for me. 60-70% seems so low for a race -even for a training run.
The guidelines i have been using say Z1: 65-75%, Z2: 75-85%, Z3: 85-90%, Z4: 90-95%.
I've been trying to stay in low Z2 so about 75-77% on almost all runs. I haven't done much speed work at all, but those have been between 90-95%.
Post by katinthehat on Sept 18, 2015 21:36:23 GMT -5
Okay. So since you have some time before your race, do a test run. Pick what you think is your z4 range and go out and run for 50-60 minutes. See if that's sustainable or if you can pick it up in the last ten minutes.
Are you just using the formulas to calculate your max HR?