Our cap for 1-3 is essentially 20. 10% of the classrooms in the district can go to 23. 23 is the hard cap.
The average class size for 7-12 has to be 23.
The average for 4-8...26!! They get screwed.
20??! Our primary teachers can have just as many as the intermediate.
Yeah, this was a huge initiative on the part of our provincial government, like, 6 years ago? Soft cap of 20, hard cap of 23, for primary grades. It's awesome but 4-8 want it too now and that = mega bucks. But, as my husband pointed out last year when he had 29 in his 5/6 combined class...he his class of 29 is proportionally much larger than a grade 3 class with 20, which sucks.
This is typical in our system. There is a ratio of students for which they are funded. And the end of the third week of school they check numbers at each school and can either add a class, change the class organizations or reduce by a class. We call it September reorganization. It has to happen because the funding exists based on number of students - no student, no funding. The funding moves with the student.
But the district grew. It just didn't grow to the projected number. The budget is apparently based on projections. I want to know who is making these projections. And why aren't they being displaced?
Well our budget is based on projections too but the funding from the govt is based on butts in seats so that's what matters. We don't actually finalize a school budget too December, we work off estimates.
Post by irishbride2 on Oct 10, 2015 13:25:44 GMT -5
Holy crap! Our first grade classes max out at 16. AND they have an aid for every two classes.
The last public school I taught at had count day October 1. I was in high school so it was a bit different but yes they cut or raised our funding based on that. We were told to keep kids on the roster even if they never showed up to try to skew the count.
Post by litebright on Oct 10, 2015 13:27:15 GMT -5
Our state does have a count day. So far, in the three years we've been doing full-day school, it hasn't resulted in any major changes afterwards that I'm aware of.
Caps on the number of kids in a classroom are set by our teachers' union contract, if I remember correctly. I'm coming to appreciate that more and more and realize just how much the ability to address these kind of things in collective bargaining matters, not just to teachers' working environment but for my kids' learning environment. Otherwise, there is absolutely nothing keeping the district from stuffing in as many students as they can without being required to hire another teacher. And now that we're moving to student-based budgeting, the pressure on individual schools to do that will be even worse.
Our state does have a count day. So far, in the three years we've been doing full-day school, it hasn't resulted in any major changes afterwards that I'm aware of.
Caps on the number of kids in a classroom are set by our teachers' union contract, if I remember correctly. I'm coming to appreciate that more and more and realize just how much the ability to address these kind of things in collective bargaining matters, not just to teachers' working environment but for my kids' learning environment. Otherwise, there is absolutely nothing keeping the district from stuffing in as many students as they can without being required to hire another teacher. And now that we're moving to student-based budgeting, the pressure on individual schools to do that will be even worse.
Post by Doggy Mommy on Oct 10, 2015 14:04:43 GMT -5
We have October count and that's what funding is based on, but I haven't heard of any huge changes like that happening after the count. I think the changes would happen the next year. Projections usually aren't too far off but this district has mostly single family houses rather than apartments, and I think there's a bit less movement of kids because of that.
We have no caps in my state though. My school is a choice school and has a little more control - classes don't have more than 25. I have 24 in 4th grade. I think primary grades are 22? The district has recommended numbers that are ridiculous (28-30 for intermediate grades) but nothing set in stone.
Post by borinquen57 on Oct 10, 2015 16:15:41 GMT -5
I'm in Chicago and it happens here. It was part-time, but I lost my second position because of this and it's happened to other full-time teachers that I've known who were resource teachers.
In my state it's cheaper for the district to pay the fine for having too many kids in a class than to hire additional teachers. So that's what a lot of them do.
My district saved 70 million last year by using long term subs instead of hiring full time teachers.
Good ol' Vegas.
Next year they're planning on splitting the district. I cannot wait to witness that cluster fuck in action.
Post by balletofangels on Oct 10, 2015 16:21:00 GMT -5
Yes, but it is in October as well and doesn't usually make a difference.
That said, we always have problems with Kindergarteners not being registered until well after school starts and we'd end up with 25 kids in K classes. It was horrible. However, we have a new superintendent as of last year and she realized the insanity and added a new K class right after Labor day. I'm excited to have 15 versus 25 in a K class when I get back to work. Yes it is tough to starts a new K class three weeks into school, but it is what's best for the kids.
So what happens? They look at which kids show up those 10 days? If a kid doesn't show up during those days, they aren't considered a student? And if so, how can they have counted 10 days in October since there have only been 7 school days? This puzzles me.
It's actually official on Monday. But they had to tell parents, students and teachers this week. And it's district wide, not just at one school. They look to see where they can make cuts. My school has the capacity for 250 kids, we are at 650 with 20 portables. No one anywhere should be cut. Oh. And the district did grow by several hundred students. The growth didn't meet projections so they are cutting.
ETA: the people making these projections should be removed. Not the teachers!
Holy Shit A! I was upset when our bond didn't pass two years ago because people were upset that the district built a (much needed and for which a bond was approved) "Community Resource Center" for our district and now parents are all "why doesn't the school board listen to us? Why didn't the money go to the schools? They just wanted fancy new digs..." We have a new school and just got four portables because all our extra rooms are now loaded. FOUR portables and parent are not happy. (Another down the road has eleven and parents are "I don't want my kid to go there!") Holy shit at TWENTY and triple capacity.
We have 24-26 in the rooms throughout the grades, with multiple combination HCAP classes now as well. There is a LOT of "I can come help with art, junior achievement, copying, and whatever else you need" at our school. I can't imagine the school succeeding nearly as well without it.
Our high school is so crowded, though, that there is no room and kids are eating lunch on the floor in the hallways. That is unacceptable. At *all* levels. K-12.
Post by SpartanGirl on Oct 10, 2015 16:33:55 GMT -5
My daughter's 4th grade class has 34 students. It's crazy. They won't add a classroom until every class has at least 35 students.
I don't know if there's a specific process, but typically our school adds staff about a month into the school year (we've never reduced staff to my knowledge). One year they added an entire classroom to DD's grade, this year they're getting one part time aide to assist all the teachers...no idea how that will work.
So what happens? They look at which kids show up those 10 days? If a kid doesn't show up during those days, they aren't considered a student? And if so, how can they have counted 10 days in October since there have only been 7 school days? This puzzles me.
It's actually official on Monday. But they had to tell parents, students and teachers this week. And it's district wide, not just at one school. They look to see where they can make cuts. My school has the capacity for 250 kids, we are at 650 with 20 portables. No one anywhere should be cut. Oh. And the district did grow by several hundred students. The growth didn't meet projections so they are cutting.
ETA: the people making these projections should be removed. Not the teachers!
No I'm not ok with it. I really don't have a choice. We are in CA, every classroom is over crowded. We entered every Lottery for the charters in the area and had no luck. If I pay for private school I won't have any $ for college. That being said I love his teacher, she is amazing. We have a strong parent volunteer base and a very involved school community. My son is thriving and doing great so considering the circumstances I am ok with it for now.
Do your classes as they have been adjusted fit within the class size expectations?
No. They are over in this case.
Ah! I see now. Yeah, that's not cool. The adjustment happens here all the time but classes have to stay within the guidelines. BUT since there are only hard caps for 1-3, classes can theoretically go to as high as 37 in 4-8. I have only seen 37 once. I had 31 in grade 8 more than once. 28 is the norm.
My last year teaching I started with 32 in a 4/5 combined, at September reorg I was changed to a 5 with 19 kids and by June I was back up to 29! But I worked in a high growth area.
Class size is actually one of the big issues the provincial elementary Union is fighting here but it is a huge cost issue so I doubt they will make much headway. Other than just the costs associated to hiring more teachers (which would be huge), there would be a massive accommodations issue too. No way the govt is going to budge on that right now. I mean, it would be great, but it won't happen.
We have count day in September and then another in February, so funding is adjusted about every 6 months. This really hurts us (a HS) because we lose a fairly significant number of kids to mid-term graduation, so we always lose money the 2nd part of the year.
I was working with a superintendent from another district earlier this week and he mentioned that they had portables and that they actually make money on them.... not sure how it all works but I thought that was interesting.
This is not a union issue. This is all about the state not funding education.
Yes, I realize this, but our union would not allow for this to happen in late September, displacing teachers. They just shut down schools in June here, and then teachers are displaced.