I just want you all to know that I'm in the park near my house right now, and on a bench there's a guy with a Bernie t-shirt and two hipster women. Standing near them is a well dressed guy in slacks and a button down with some patchouli thing and a feather thing and he's waving the incense smoke all over the three of them. They are all white.
Post by turnipthebeet on Oct 12, 2015 20:06:50 GMT -5
The thing is, everything I've read from sources that I trust tells me that Bernie isn't going to win in the general election, even if he does win the primaries. Which means that I will cast my ballot in both primary and general for Hillary, because I will be so outrageously pissed if Bernie wins the primaries and loses the general and I end up with another Bush etc in the White House.
Also, the reason he's doing well, I suspect, is because of all of the people afraid of a woman in the WH, and more specifically the "anyone but Hillary" camp.
But really, what is novel about him? Is it b/c he is talking about the 1% and amount of money that banks/wall street controls? Why do you like him so?
I like that he's someone who is staying away from having a political Super PAC, no donations from Goldman Sachs or the like, and is someone who has been getting up close and personal with workers unions to the point of marching with them on occasion. He's a big picture candidate like Clinton, but without being a big money candidate.
While he has been on the right side of things way before Clinton, that doesn't matter because as long as you arrive to the proper thought, that's what matters, not the time you got to that thought. (Clinton not being for gay marriage unitl 2013, hey, at least she switched her position on it and had the thought to change.)
If (I say if because the primaries haven't happened yet) Clinton becomes the nominee, GREAT! She has a platform that matches a lot of Bernie's stances, and it puts us closer to a female president then we've ever gotten before!
I just worry about it being same old same old for one of them, being called an "awful" president because the government around them doesn't allow them to get anything done, and that they would unfairly go after Clinton a lot harder then they would with Sanders.
This is similar to what I am hearing but more in depth. I am interested to see the debate and see if Bernie speaking and not just reading about him changes my mind. I'm trying to be open bc I changed from Hillary to campaign-for Obama once before.
I do have to correct one of the statements you have about finances - it probably won't change anyone's POV but it does make the conversation more true. Bernie actually has more PAC money in his top ten donors than Hillary. The majority of his top ten are unions who donate through their PACs, not typically individuals. Hillary has 4 financial institutions then the top women's political group (Emily's List) then financial and corporations. Thanks to stupid Citizen's United those corporations don't hide behind PACs now and so those are direct donations. It's a subtle difference, but Bernie actually has more top ten "PAC" donors. But this is not for either in the past year - this is reported over the last 16 years for HRC and 26 years for Bernie. There is a lag in reporting and so we won't have a full picture of this campaign for awhile for either. www.truth-out.org/speakout/item/32165-comparing-hillary-clinton-s-top-donors-to-bernie-sanders-top-donors
Plus Bernie did just pass $15million (or close, right) of small individual donations - his campaign claims. But in 2008 Hillary got over $50million in small, individual donations (both same category of $200 or less for an individual). I couldn't find what she has now since it's not required reporting or there is a lag.
And because it's interesting, but not between Sanders and Clinton, look at the individuals who have donated a million $ or more to the candidates (as of July). HRC does have one Union who gave her a million and a handful of philanthropists, but nothing like the GOP candidates?!?! www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/us/elections/top-presidential-donors-campaign-money.html
Why can't the dems put up another candidate? I like both Bernie and Hillary. I doubt Bernie can win the general and there are just too many people that don't trust Hillary. I fear that if either one of them won the primary that the general would go to the R candidate. We just really need another choice.
Why can't the dems put up another candidate? I like both Bernie and Hillary. I doubt Bernie can win the general and there are just too many people that don't trust Hillary. I fear that if either one of them won the primary that the general would go to the R candidate. We just really need another choice.
Hmm - why wouldn't the Bernie supporters go for Hillary in the primary sine their stances are not that dissimilar? I have to go compare their tax/budget plans to see major differences. I should do that before the debate.
Why can't the dems put up another candidate? I like both Bernie and Hillary. I doubt Bernie can win the general and there are just too many people that don't trust Hillary. I fear that if either one of them won the primary that the general would go to the R candidate. We just really need another choice.
Who? Who has the ground game, endorsements, cash, and name recognition?
I was ready to marry Bernie Sanders until I (just recently) realized his stance on gun control. Not interested anymore.
So... your friends may just not know about that yet. Everything I knew about him I heard in an interview w/ DIane Rheeme, and I don't think gun control came up then (must have been in between school shootings).
Right? If you're in your Bernie-Bubble, are you hearing about gun control? Or are you focused on the issues he's speaking so eloquently about? I imagine that after the most recent school shooting, he's at least been asked about his record. It's possible that this is brand new information to many of his supporters.
Also, I was a HUGE Bernie lover when he did Brunch with Bernie on Ed Schultz a few year ago (:::pours one out for liberal talk radio:. I don't recall that gun control ever came up, but this was long before his candidacy. I just remember thinking "this guy is awesome! I wish more people were listening to him!" And now they are - lol.
Why can't the dems put up another candidate? I like both Bernie and Hillary. I doubt Bernie can win the general and there are just too many people that don't trust Hillary. I fear that if either one of them won the primary that the general would go to the R candidate. We just really need another choice.
Who? Who has the ground game, endorsements, cash, and name recognition?
Only HRC has all of these things now. Bernie is severely lacking ground game, especially in battle ground states. The CNN polling numbers released today in Nevada and South Carolina are just the start. Bernie didn't even have an office in Nevada a month ago.
I was ready to marry Bernie Sanders until I (just recently) realized his stance on gun control. Not interested anymore.
So... your friends may just not know about that yet. Everything I knew about him I heard in an interview w/ DIane Rheeme, and I don't think gun control came up then (must have been in between school shootings).
Right? If you're in your Bernie-Bubble, are you hearing about gun control? Or are you focused on the issues he's speaking so eloquently about? I imagine that after the most recent school shooting, he's at least been asked about his record. It's possible that this is brand new information to many of his supporters.
I am optimistic that they will be asked about it tonight.
Why can't the dems put up another candidate? I like both Bernie and Hillary. I doubt Bernie can win the general and there are just too many people that don't trust Hillary. I fear that if either one of them won the primary that the general would go to the R candidate. We just really need another choice.
Who? Who has the ground game, endorsements, cash, and name recognition?
Biden? Not sure about the cash part though. I guess that is what is holding him back at the moment?
Why can't the dems put up another candidate? I like both Bernie and Hillary. I doubt Bernie can win the general and there are just too many people that don't trust Hillary. I fear that if either one of them won the primary that the general would go to the R candidate. We just really need another choice.
I highly doubt the Dems want to put up another candidate. The DNC is not gunning for Biden to run (unless HRC really crashes and burns over the email thing).
There's a good reason you don't have any top-tier Dems capable of running, and it's because for the last 8 years it has been assumed that HRC would be anointed as the 2016 candidate. The nomination was supposed to be her's for the taking. The DNC will allow some candidates with no real chance of winning to run against her - O'Malley, Webb and Chaffee. But her biggest competition isn't even a Democrat. Just a guy who caucuses with the Dems. That is not surprising. The DNC would not want to do anything to jeopardize Clinton's chances.
Personally, I'm happy that Bernie IS giving her a run for her money. I'm happy he's putting out positions that are causing HRC to release her own positions on things like college cost reform. I'm happy that people are discussing the demons in HRC's closet (email gate, mostly) BEFORE the general election, so it will have less of an effect on her later candidacy. Having a legitimate rival forces her to really focus on addressing her negatives.
I prefer Bernie over HRC, but I also think the current political arena needs a conniving, clever and manipulative politician who can deal with the morons in congress, and HRC will be able to do that way better than Bernie. I also would like a female president.
So I will vote Bernie, and be happy with HRC. For me, its a win win.
I just want to cosign onto msmerymac in this thread.
I do think a part of the Bernie hysteria is the young ideals thinking he isn't really a politician (even though he is). Like, I believe Hillary's gay marriage stance was very political. She waited until it was more accepted to support. Bernie just did what he wanted. Which I think is great as someone running for president against Hillary to push her more liberal. But, as an old cynical, being a politician is a part of the job. Sometimes, you have to give a little to get a little.
It's time for more female leaders around the globe.
Women around the world and in this nation are raped, murdered, mutilated, assaulted, degraded, paid less, worth less, get less then men on the regular, simply for being female.
It's time for a cultural shift. A revolution. More women in power who care about these issues. Not just here. But everywhere.
HRC as POTUS is a good start.
This made me think of this little tidbit I recently saw, the #MoreWomen campaign. It's a little montage of photos where they photoshop out the men, to show how few women are in government and other areas.
And can someone explain why all the people I know who used to be obnoxious Ron Paul fans are now obsessed with Bernie Sanders?
I think it's about supporting the anti-establishment. They want someone who isn't following the tired footpaths of all the other politicians who change the color of their spots when they want to be elected (holy mixed metaphors).
Why can't the dems put up another candidate? I like both Bernie and Hillary. I doubt Bernie can win the general and there are just too many people that don't trust Hillary. I fear that if either one of them won the primary that the general would go to the R candidate. We just really need another choice.
There are 3 other candidates. Well, four, but the 4th wasn't even invited to the debate. But they probably don't want to split the pot by introducing too many candidates, ala the GOP and their 76 clowns in a car circus.
Also, I was a HUGE Bernie lover when he did Brunch with Bernie on Ed Schultz a few year ago (:::pours one out for liberal talk radio:. I don't recall that gun control ever came up, but this was long before his candidacy. I just remember thinking "this guy is awesome! I wish more people were listening to him!" And now they are - lol.
Same. It was Thomm Hartmann's show, though, not Ed Schultz (unless he did both and I was unaware).
Also, I was a HUGE Bernie lover when he did Brunch with Bernie on Ed Schultz a few year ago (:::pours one out for liberal talk radio:. I don't recall that gun control ever came up, but this was long before his candidacy. I just remember thinking "this guy is awesome! I wish more people were listening to him!" And now they are - lol.
Same. It was Thomm Hartmann's show, though, not Ed Schultz (unless he did both and I was unaware).
The thing is, everything I've read from sources that I trust tells me that Bernie isn't going to win in the general election, even if he does win the primaries. Which means that I will cast my ballot in both primary and general for Hillary, because I will be so outrageously pissed if Bernie wins the primaries and loses the general and I end up with another Bush etc in the White House.
Also, the reason he's doing well, I suspect, is because of all of the people afraid of a woman in the WH, and more specifically the "anyone but Hillary" camp.
Short-term Bernie might look appealing to some, but he's not going to win the general election. He's not.
Im just glad someone can 100% see the future. Sorry, I know that sounds like I am being mean, but a lot of people come out with this statement, and I can't help but think the same thing was said of Obama. I think its entirely possible for Bernie to get the nom ad to win. I also think its unlikely, but just plain stating it can't be done seems a little off.
Post by StrawberryBlondie on Oct 13, 2015 9:46:36 GMT -5
I'll vote for Bernie I'd he's the nominee. Happily. I agree with a lot of his positions. But if there's a female whose positions I don't find terrible running, I'm voting for her. Even if I don't really *like* her.
I just want to cosign onto msmerymac in this thread.
I do think a part of the Bernie hysteria is the young ideals thinking he isn't really a politician (even though he is). Like, I believe Hillary's gay marriage stance was very political. She waited until it was more accepted to support. Bernie just did what he wanted. Which I think is great as someone running for president against Hillary to push her more liberal. But, as an old cynical, being a politician is a part of the job. Sometimes, you have to give a little to get a little.
I agree that Bernie was more bold and set in his liberal ideals. I like that, but I also think that Bernie was a white male boomer who could follow his ideals early on - socialism was unpopular, but not a career ender if you were a Democrat socialist who wanted equality. Being a black, male socialist was probably a political office aspiration killer 25+ years ago (sadly, it probably still is). Similarly, being a white woman with a traditional family and law degree, but a liberal in Arkansas, like HRC, was more acceptable than being a bra-burning, protesting, woman of color who had political aspirations.
I think Bernie or HRC came into their own political careers in different times and ways - Hillary through the backdoor of "the establishment" and Bernie through the front, but as a 3rd party member without all the privilege of the two-party "establishment." I mean Bernie ran as a 3rd party candidate unsuccessfully from 1968 until 1981. So it's not like either had it easy, but 25 years ago Bernie was elected to Congress. Where after trying for over a decade, he could start making changes. Sort of a glimpse at the American Dream - go with your gut and what is right, stick to it, and eventually you can lead the country with your ideals. Twenty-five years ago Hillary was still a litigator/mom/wife in Arkansas helping her husband on his political career path and working on women's and children's issues.
The more I read, I really don't think we lose with either one - they are both career politicians who know how the process works, both have similar ideals on the spectrum to a more Democratic liberal lean (Bernie obviously more toward the Nordic socialism ideal), and both have worked on national legislation and at the international level (HRC a little more to that end). I can't wait for the debate tonight.
TLDR - I really we don't have bad choices in the Dems we are putting up.
I just want to cosign onto msmerymac in this thread.
I do think a part of the Bernie hysteria is the young ideals thinking he isn't really a politician (even though he is). Like, I believe Hillary's gay marriage stance was very political. She waited until it was more accepted to support. Bernie just did what he wanted. Which I think is great as someone running for president against Hillary to push her more liberal. But, as an old cynical, being a politician is a part of the job. Sometimes, you have to give a little to get a little.
I agree that Bernie was more bold and set in his liberal ideals. I like that, but I also think that Bernie was a white male boomer who could follow his ideals early on - socialism was unpopular, but not a career ender if you were a Democrat socialist who wanted equality. Being a black, male socialist was probably a political office aspiration killer 25+ years ago (sadly, it probably still is). Similarly, being a white woman with a traditional family and law degree, but a liberal in Arkansas, like HRC, was more acceptable than being a bra-burning, protesting, woman of color who had political aspirations.
I think Bernie or HRC came into their own political careers in different times and ways - Hillary through the backdoor of "the establishment" and Bernie through the front, but as a 3rd party member without all the privilege of the two-party "establishment." I mean Bernie ran as a 3rd party candidate unsuccessfully from 1968 until 1981. So it's not like either had it easy, but 25 years ago Bernie was elected to Congress. Where after trying for over a decade, he could start making changes. Sort of a glimpse at the American Dream - go with your gut and what is right, stick to it, and eventually you can lead the country with your ideals. Twenty-five years ago Hillary was still a litigator/mom/wife in Arkansas helping her husband on his political career path and working on women's and children's issues.
The more I read, I really don't think we lose with either one - they are both career politicians who know how the process works, both have similar ideals on the spectrum to a more Democratic liberal lean (Bernie obviously more toward the Nordic socialism ideal), and both have worked on national legislation and at the international level (HRC a little more to that end). I can't wait for the debate tonight.
TLDR - I really we don't have bad choices in the Dems we are putting up.
YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Like I said before, Bernie's ability to be Bernie comes as the result of being so privileged. He's a white man who has only ever had to appeal to liberal whites. Candidates representing more diverse interests have to coalition build, which requires compromises. Women and minority candidates have to moderate their appeal in a way that white men do not have to.
Elizabeth Warren has managed to become a politician by espousing a similar ideology as Bernie, but she came into politics extremely late in her career, and like Bernie, rode in on the support of liberal whites, and in particular, the ivory tower. There is just no way she could have run for any office in the 80s and won. And if you try to imagine someone like her running for office in 1985, you see just how privileged Bernie Sanders really is.
And can someone explain why all the people I know who used to be obnoxious Ron Paul fans are now obsessed with Bernie Sanders?
I think it's about supporting the anti-establishment. They want someone who isn't following the tired footpaths of all the other politicians who change the color of their spots when they want to be elected (holy mixed metaphors).
Yeah. They both just off as more genuine compared with most other politicians, too. They come off as true believers.
But man, anyone who supported Ron Paul and now supports Bernie Sanders either had a serious change of heart on economic issues or never actually cared about the issues in the first place.
Why can't the dems put up another candidate? I like both Bernie and Hillary. I doubt Bernie can win the general and there are just too many people that don't trust Hillary. I fear that if either one of them won the primary that the general would go to the R candidate. We just really need another choice.
Who? Who has the ground game, endorsements, cash, and name recognition?
Im just glad someone can 100% see the future. Sorry, I know that sounds like I am being mean, but a lot of people come out with this statement, and I can't help but think the same thing was said of Obama. I think its entirely possible for Bernie to get the nom ad to win. I also think its unlikely, but just plain stating it can't be done seems a little off.
A huge difference is that Obama got the minority vote and Sanders is doing awfully there. Democrats can't win without minorities.
I agree. All I am saying is that "Bernie can't win" is not a true statement, any more than "Donald can't win". They both can. I mean, not at the same time lol, but yeah.
I was ready to marry Bernie Sanders until I (just recently) realized his stance on gun control. Not interested anymore.
So... your friends may just not know about that yet. Everything I knew about him I heard in an interview w/ DIane Rheeme, and I don't think gun control came up then (must have been in between school shootings).
Right? If you're in your Bernie-Bubble, are you hearing about gun control? Or are you focused on the issues he's speaking so eloquently about? I imagine that after the most recent school shooting, he's at least been asked about his record. It's possible that this is brand new information to many of his supporters.
The Bernie Bubble as you term it is not the only bubble in this thread---not even the predominant one.
Right? If you're in your Bernie-Bubble, are you hearing about gun control? Or are you focused on the issues he's speaking so eloquently about? I imagine that after the most recent school shooting, he's at least been asked about his record. It's possible that this is brand new information to many of his supporters.
The Bernie Bubble as you term it is not the only bubble in this thread---not even the predominant one.
I'm sorry, what? I can't hear you. I have bubbles in my ears.