I've read elsewhere that Asian men and women actually make more than white men and that the disparity between Asian men and women is much smaller (possibly reversed?).
ETA I remembered it wrong - Asian women make much less than Asian men but both make more than their counterparts of all other races:
This was an interesting read. I know the idea has been discussed on here before so seeing the stats to back it up is interesting.
I don't know if this is the same thing, but I remember someone on here mentioning a few months back that in their experience, black women need to dress up for work more than white women do (maybe NitaX?) and I have paid attention since then and noticed that the black female attorneys at my work are ALWAYS dressed a step above what I am. Like the black female attorneys who are in my old job always dress business casual but a step above how I do "business casual" - always in heels, jewelry, etc. The black female judges (who are above me) always dress in more business attire (full suits, etc) and really no one here wears suits except them.
Yes, I work in a casual environment and have worked here a long time so I'll come in with jeans and a tshirt and even then I have on some makeup or something to make that look less I rolled out of bed and more "I woke up like dis, I woke up like dis" LOL. But my black lady colleagues generally are not coming to work looking fucked up and are often described as fashion plates etc.
We just hired a new person (THANK GOD SO WE ARE NO LONGER SHORT STAFFED) and she just asked me about casual Friday. I told her that I ALWAYS dress it up. Jeans and cardi or blazer. I never wear tennis shoes - wear cute flats or heels, but NEVER go too casual.
I can't afford for someone not to take me seriously based upon my dress,
I'm sadly not surprised by this. My workplace is very diverse, but not a lot of minorities at the top.
The comment about Obama was spot on. Can you imagine the response if George Bush had killed Bin Laden?
Your name cracks me up...because I just assumed you were her. I mean, it makes sense when talking about your "workplace." Even Joan Jett complained about women and minorities in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame earlier this year!
This was an interesting read. I know the idea has been discussed on here before so seeing the stats to back it up is interesting.
I don't know if this is the same thing, but I remember someone on here mentioning a few months back that in their experience, black women need to dress up for work more than white women do (maybe NitaX?) and I have paid attention since then and noticed that the black female attorneys at my work are ALWAYS dressed a step above what I am. Like the black female attorneys who are in my old job always dress business casual but a step above how I do "business casual" - always in heels, jewelry, etc. The black female judges (who are above me) always dress in more business attire (full suits, etc) and really no one here wears suits except them.
Yes, I work in a casual environment and have worked here a long time so I'll come in with jeans and a tshirt and even then I have on some makeup or something to make that look less I rolled out of bed and more "I woke up like dis, I woke up like dis" LOL. But my black lady colleagues generally are not coming to work looking fucked up and are often described as fashion plates etc.
I've made comments about how I will never be mistaken for a fashion plate, but I so rarely roll up in here in jeans that the last time I did I got several comments on how I NEVER wear jeans.
I'm sadly not surprised by this. My workplace is very diverse, but not a lot of minorities at the top.
The comment about Obama was spot on. Can you imagine the response if George Bush had killed Bin Laden?
Your name cracks me up...because I just assumed you were her. I mean, it makes sense when talking about your "workplace." Even Joan Jett complained about women and minorities in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame earlier this year!
Yes, I work in a casual environment and have worked here a long time so I'll come in with jeans and a tshirt and even then I have on some makeup or something to make that look less I rolled out of bed and more "I woke up like dis, I woke up like dis" LOL. But my black lady colleagues generally are not coming to work looking fucked up and are often described as fashion plates etc.
I've made comments about how I will never be mistaken for a fashion plate, but I so rarely roll up in here in jeans that the last time I did I got several comments on how I NEVER wear jeans.
When you say "Fashion Plates" are you referring to the 1980's pink things that I loved playing with? I get the meaning, but is the saying from those?
I've made comments about how I will never be mistaken for a fashion plate, but I so rarely roll up in here in jeans that the last time I did I got several comments on how I NEVER wear jeans.
When you say "Fashion Plates" are you referring to the 1980's pink things that I loved playing with? I get the meaning, but is the saying from those?
LOL
No, I think the term was borrowed from the fashion magazine industry for the toy.
I can't imagine how tiring it would be to constantly have to fight this battle. It pisses me off that anyone should have to.
And then convincing people that it is real. I work with someone right now who thinks that white guys are disproportionately getting cut in this downturn in the oil industry. Since white guys are a disproportionate portion of our technical staff it kinda makes sense.
This same person is very friendly and supportive of me to my face but then when I got an informal leadership position (which indicates formal leadership might be in the cards) he was talking shot about me and my ability to do the job behind my back.
Years ago, I worked with a black woman who was head of HR. When a new president was hired, the first thing he did was promote her to AVP. My boss (a VP) went ballistic. He claimed she wasn't qualified, despite her 20+ years of experience and the fact that he himself openly valued her contributions. At the time, I was going through my own shit with him and saw this as evidence of discrimination against women. But clearly there was more going on than I realized. My boss spent a good year trying to take her and the president down, and eventually the president did get canned. During that time, there was political maneuvering that I won't bore you with, but ultimately she ended up adversarial to the next president. He fired her, and I had to sit in the room to "witness". Holy motherfucking uncomfortable. He said "new president, new team and you're not on it." She filed a discrimination claim based on race and I thought, "what bullshit! I was there! Race wasn't a factor!" But it wasn't bullshit, was it?
There are so many things I wish I'd known when I worked with her. So many times we were in conflict and I couldn't understand why the only two women on the exec team weren't supporting each other more. I kind of want to track her down and apologize for being a naive, entitled, white bitch.
I'm going to tag whoever it was in the other thread that said she wanted to see this happening, cause really no one can win. I read the article, I didn't have anything to say. I've seen those charts before. I KNOW THIS. Yet I had nothing constructive to add.
Yes, I'm defensive.
If it was supposed to be a dig at you, I would have called you out by name.
We all know I have no problem calling people out.
I am frustrated, by and large, at the number of people who say they are absorbing and listening but do not actually respond in any of the threads concerning race on this board. If you say that, but participate, then it's not directed at you. I don't pay enough attention to your particular posts within the context of all of the race threads on here to specifically call you out. Take that for what it is.
Guilty as charged. I have learned so much from lurking this board, to the extent that I am more than a bit embarrassed by my own self-absorption.
This was an interesting read. I know the idea has been discussed on here before so seeing the stats to back it up is interesting.
I don't know if this is the same thing, but I remember someone on here mentioning a few months back that in their experience, black women need to dress up for work more than white women do (maybe NitaX?) and I have paid attention since then and noticed that the black female attorneys at my work are ALWAYS dressed a step above what I am. Like the black female attorneys who are in my old job always dress business casual but a step above how I do "business casual" - always in heels, jewelry, etc. The black female judges (who are above me) always dress in more business attire (full suits, etc) and really no one here wears suits except them.
Yes, I work in a casual environment and have worked here a long time so I'll come in with jeans and a tshirt and even then I have on some makeup or something to make that look less I rolled out of bed and more "I woke up like dis, I woke up like dis" LOL. But my black lady colleagues generally are not coming to work looking fucked up and are often described as fashion plates etc.
My principal is one of the few African-American women on staff, and she always looks perfect. Several teachers come in flipflops/casual sandals and even (nice) shorts, but she's always the height of professionalism and I completely understand why. I hate that an entire group of people has to be perfect just to hope to be seen as acceptable.
I've also found confronting people with numbers and data doesn't always work. People who are determined to not have their worldview shaken will find any way to avoid and negate the facts before them.
Post by redshoejune on Oct 16, 2015 7:38:52 GMT -5
I have never worked with a black engineer at my local company or seen any that were interviewed. I don't think I've ever worked with a black client or sub consultant either.
I will say that a person with a long unemployment history would be at the bottom of my stack of resumes for people to bring in for interviews so I have mixed feelings about how to take this article.
ETA: There is one black engineer on my floor of about 180 that I don't work with because he does completely different work, and there is a new technician that seems good (he's been there a month and techs of all races are notorious for quitting after a few months, so don't know if he will last or not).
I don't know that I have experience to speak to this article, but I've also heard it used about being a woman.
It's sad that the people that most need to hear this are also likely to be most distrusting of the science/math used to prove what so many of us have seen or experienced.
I'm also kind of sad that this study wasn't featured in major news outlets like the study awhile ago looking generally at women v. men.
I have never worked with a black engineer at my local company or seen any that were interviewed. I don't think I've ever worked with a black client or sub consultant either.
I will say that a person with a long unemployment history would be at the bottom of my stack of resumes for people to bring in for interviews so I have mixed feelings about how to take this article.
ETA: There is one black engineer on my floor of about 180 that I don't work with because he does completely different work, and there is a new technician that seems good (he's been there a month and techs of all races are notorious for quitting after a few months, so don't know if he will last or not).
I don't know that I have experience to speak to this article, but I've also heard it used about being a woman.
I take it you don't do any gov't work? We've got MBE/WBE requirements out the wazoo. Gotta have those minority subs! Basically every single sub we work with is either minority owned or women owned. Or both. (not that all those minorities are black, but most of them are) Are you located somewhere with a small minority population?
Also as to the bolded - I totally understand what you're saying, but I think the takeaway from this for people like you and me who are not minorities but might be in the position to make hiring decisions is to just make sure you aren't working with blinders on to the way these biases shake out. Exactly what that might mean in terms of taking action is going to vary depending on the candidates you've got and so forth. But...I'm not sure how to say this....don't be the asshole by default? ya know? Ask yourself if you're applying fair criteria in an evenhanded way that isn't creating an undue impact. Not that you have to hire somebody who is a bad fit just because they happen to be black, but just consider if your company is never hiring minorities if maybe there's something going on there that's preventing that from happening. (again, assuming you don't live somewhere with a 2% black population or something)
Story time! I had a boss previously who was really hesitant to hire anybody with an accent. We were in a very very small satellite office and we only had admin support 2 days a week, so she and I answered the phones ourselves. When she was hiring my replacement (which started while I was still there because I gave her a ton of notice) she seriously wanted to trash any resume with a non-american name and a bachelor's degree in a non-English speaking country on the assumption that our clients would struggle to talk to them on the phone. Did she think they were bad engineers? No. But was that still pretty fucked up? YES. I talked her out of that btw...by FAR the most qualified candidate she had was from India. He worked out fine and stayed there for 4 years. And yes he had an accent.
I have never worked with a black engineer at my local company or seen any that were interviewed. I don't think I've ever worked with a black client or sub consultant either.
I will say that a person with a long unemployment history would be at the bottom of my stack of resumes for people to bring in for interviews so I have mixed feelings about how to take this article.
ETA: There is one black engineer on my floor of about 180 that I don't work with because he does completely different work, and there is a new technician that seems good (he's been there a month and techs of all races are notorious for quitting after a few months, so don't know if he will last or not).
I don't know that I have experience to speak to this article, but I've also heard it used about being a woman.
And this is why President Obama tried to make discrimination against the unemployed illegal in his jobs bill. And why a provision added tax relief for employers who hired people who had been unemployed for a period of time. Once you are unemployed your skills erode and it is harder and harder to keep momentum in the market. The rates at which this happens has had a disparate impact on minorities. You make a lot of assumptions.
Keep in mind, If you were last in and there are layoffs, you are often first out. This has happened to my friend recently. She is a rock star with a solid good ole boy network though so she will be fine. A woman of color in engineering who doesn't have that same network won't be so lucky.
... I will say that a person with a long unemployment history would be at the bottom of my stack of resumes for people to bring in for interviews so I have mixed feelings about how to take this article....
This is one of those things that sounds like it can be applied fairly and impartially but when you take into account systemic racism it just can't. POC are more likely to be judged harsher (leading to fewer job options) and less likely to have a large network of powerful people (since most business leaders are white), leading to statistically longer unemployment and lower wages. Using unemployment dates alone therefore propagates the system.
It's not the same thing, but similar to the process by which women earn less than men because companies ask about prior salary and then continue to propagate what was already a low wage.
this is all very upsetting, like most things I read about race discrimination. As a white woman I live in a bubble of privilege and reading these things really opens my eyes, more so every day.
The comment about black women and how they dress is very interesting to me! The attire for women at my company varies quite a lot (it's "business" but I find while with men that is cut and dry, it means a shirt and tie, with women it can be interpreted very loosely). The black women I work with that I can think of right now, generally always seem to dress on the more "business" side. Suits & heels. Of course some white women do too but I can't think that I've seen a black woman here take such a loose view of "business" attire that many white women (including me at times) do.
I've never even thought of it until now. I always thought wow she always looks so nice and put together! and now I realize that there is possibly (or probably?) a defensiveness to this level of style and poise.
I think the idea of making discrimination against unemployment illegal is an interesting idea. I hadn't heard of that before and I can see how it would be helpful to job seekers.
Post by mrsukyankee on Oct 16, 2015 10:23:14 GMT -5
I would love to hear/see if this is similar in London. I'm assuming so as I hear about so few women of colour in power. I do know that women who are of South Asian background definitely feel like they have to work harder in the UK. I know even my H feels he has to work harder being of Indian background as he's heard that people say bad things about Indians (lazy, lacking in knowledge, backwards, etc). I know I'm lucky to be a white woman who went to an Ivy - I have so much privilege it's not funny.
I have never worked with a black engineer at my local company or seen any that were interviewed. I don't think I've ever worked with a black client or sub consultant either.
I will say that a person with a long unemployment history would be at the bottom of my stack of resumes for people to bring in for interviews so I have mixed feelings about how to take this article.
ETA: There is one black engineer on my floor of about 180 that I don't work with because he does completely different work, and there is a new technician that seems good (he's been there a month and techs of all races are notorious for quitting after a few months, so don't know if he will last or not).
I don't know that I have experience to speak to this article, but I've also heard it used about being a woman.
I take it you don't do any gov't work? We've got MBE/WBE requirements out the wazoo. Gotta have those minority subs! Basically every single sub we work with is either minority owned or women owned. Or both. (not that all those minorities are black, but most of them are) Are you located somewhere with a small minority population?
Also as to the bolded - I totally understand what you're saying, but I think the takeaway from this for people like you and me who are not minorities but might be in the position to make hiring decisions is to just make sure you aren't working with blinders on to the way these biases shake out. Exactly what that might mean in terms of taking action is going to vary depending on the candidates you've got and so forth. But...I'm not sure how to say this....don't be the asshole by default? ya know? Ask yourself if you're applying fair criteria in an evenhanded way that isn't creating an undue impact. Not that you have to hire somebody who is a bad fit just because they happen to be black, but just consider if your company is never hiring minorities if maybe there's something going on there that's preventing that from happening. (again, assuming you don't live somewhere with a 2% black population or something)
Story time! I had a boss previously who was really hesitant to hire anybody with an accent. We were in a very very small satellite office and we only had admin support 2 days a week, so she and I answered the phones ourselves. When she was hiring my replacement (which started while I was still there because I gave her a ton of notice) she seriously wanted to trash any resume with a non-american name and a bachelor's degree in a non-English speaking country on the assumption that our clients would struggle to talk to them on the phone. Did she think they were bad engineers? No. But was that still pretty fucked up? YES. I talked her out of that btw...by FAR the most qualified candidate she had was from India. He worked out fine and stayed there for 4 years. And yes he had an accent.
I think that I can make objective decisions. I am rarely in a position to make hiring decisions as an engineer, but I am occasionally involved and was a hiring manager for one specific position in the last year. We generally hire locally because we have several good schools for entry level people and prefer more experienced people to be familiar with the local market.
And to clarify, I work for a large international company, but my experience is pretty limited to the local group.
Here's what I can find for statistics in my area: Denver Metro area - 5% black
Two biggest universities engineering enrollment:
CSU - 11.5% all minorities, another page said within students identifying as minorities 2 out of 189 were black, so I would estimate that the total % black engineering students is less than 1%
CU - 11.5% all minorities (I didn't couldn't dig any deeper to determine how many are black but I would expect it to be around 1% as well)
I have all the books I could need, and what more could I need than books? I shall only engage in commerce if books are the coin. -- Catherynne M. Valente
I think that I can make objective decisions. I am rarely in a position to make hiring decisions as an engineer, but I am occasionally involved and was a hiring manager for one specific position in the last year. We generally hire locally because we have several good schools for entry level people and prefer more experienced people to be familiar with the local market.
And to clarify, I work for a large international company, but my experience is pretty limited to the local group.
Here's what I can find for statistics in my area: Denver Metro area - 5% black
Two biggest universities engineering enrollment:
CSU - 11.5% all minorities, another page said within students identifying as minorities 2 out of 189 were black, so I would estimate that the total % black engineering students is less than 1%
CU - 11.5% all minorities (I didn't couldn't dig any deeper to determine how many are black but I would expect it to be around 1% as well)
Lol Denver is actually more black than I thought it was.
While I think I've always sort of noticed, I had never made the direct connection to my black coworkers dress vs everyone else's. But I've seen it in the fact that one woman n particular is always sharp as hell with her dress and I look so casual compared to her.
I usually lurk, but have been more active lately, and in light of what was brought up in other threads I have been acrive in, I just want you to know I have read this and heard it. I don't have anything helpful to say other than I am sorry that you have to experience this and it makes me very upset.