Not sure we talked about this cop shooting case...

[sparrowsong]

Well people also flash lights to warn other drivers that there's a cop/speed trap ahead, so I'm sure that's part of it.

[YeahSure]

Oct 16, 2015 13:50:53 GMT -5 sparrowsong said:

Well people also flash lights to warn other drivers that there's a cop/speed trap ahead, so I'm sure that's part of it.

Really? I've never heard of that. When I lived in deer country, I would flash my lights to warn drivers of deer in the road. 

[sparrowsong]

Oct 16, 2015 14:04:36 GMT -5 YeahSure said:

Oct 16, 2015 13:50:53 GMT -5 sparrowsong said:

Well people also flash lights to warn other drivers that there's a cop/speed trap ahead, so I'm sure that's part of it.

Really? I've never heard of that. When I lived in deer country, I would flash my lights to warn drivers of deer in the road. 

Wildlife in the road is another good reason, yes. I've been saved multiple times by people warning me about a speed trap though!

[elleblue]

My H told me about this a few days ago. Again I feel like we must ask - since when is the penalty for flashing your headlights death? I feel like challenging the legality of flashing your lights is beside the point, although I obviously recognize this is likely the only way for the victim's family to challenge the officer's actions in court.

[Deleted]

Am I the only one who grew up hearing the urban legend about people driving with their brights on, waiting for the first person to flash their brights at them, as some sort of gang initiation that would end up with the person flashing lights dead on the side of the road. I never flash my brights because I heard that story as a teen.

[elleblue]

Oct 16, 2015 14:16:22 GMT -5 lurkingaw said:

Am I the only one who grew up hearing the urban legend about people driving with their brights on, waiting for the first person to flash their brights at them, as some sort of gang initiation that would end up with the person flashing lights dead on the side of the road. I never flash my brights because I heard that story as a teen.

I always heard it was a car driving with it's lights off, not brights on. In any case, it isn't a thing. link 

[twohearted]

Are you allowed to flash your headlights off?

[aurora]

Am I the only one who is annoyed that the article is all about the laws and details on the high beams and NOT ABOUT THE FACT THAT AN OFFICER KILLED ANOTHER PERSON OVER A TRAFFIC INFRACTION?

[Deleted]

Oct 16, 2015 14:29:56 GMT -5 aurora said:

Am I the only one who is annoyed that the article is all about the laws and details on the high beams and NOT ABOUT THE FACT THAT AN OFFICER KILLED ANOTHER PERSON OVER A TRAFFIC INFRACTION?

On a phone, so can't link, but I just googled and saw an article from the officer's perspective. Had a picture of the officer bloodied up. Apoarently the kid resisted arrest after refusing to show ID. Cop ended up tasing him, but the kid managed to somehow get on top of the cop and repeatedly punxh him in the head. At dome point the cop feared for his life, drew his weapon and unloaded it. I'm not mad. That's what I would have done if the kid was trying to beat me to unconsciousness. Self defense on the cop's part

[pedanticwench]

[jojoandleo]

Oct 16, 2015 14:29:56 GMT -5 aurora said:

Am I the only one who is annoyed that the article is all about the laws and details on the high beams and NOT ABOUT THE FACT THAT AN OFFICER KILLED ANOTHER PERSON OVER A TRAFFIC INFRACTION?

AND ALL THE COMMENTS!?!

Did everyone just miss the part were this traffic stop led to a cop shooting a teenager SEVEN GODDAM TIMES!?!

[jojoandleo]

Further info about the actual shooting (www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/family-slain-teen-deven-guilford-sues-michigan-cop-roadside-shooting-n446026)

The family of a Michigan teenager shot to death by a police officer filed a wrongful-death lawsuit against the cop this week, saying he repeatedly violated the boy's civil rights during a traffic stop that ended with the victim shot seven times in a roadside snowbank.

The lawsuit follows a June decision by local prosecutors not to charge Sgt. Jonathan Frost of the Eaton County Sheriff's Office for the Feb. 28 killing of 17-year-old Deven Guilford following a confrontation that was partly captured by the officer's body camera and the boy's cell phone.

Frost said Guilford attacked him, knocking him on his back and punching him in the face before he shot the boy. The fight itself was not caught on video. But Eaton County Prosecuting Attorney Douglas Lloyd reviewed other evidence, including wounds on Frost's face, and agreed with the officer's account, calling Guilford the aggressor and concluding that Frost acted in self-defense.

The boy's parents said they were confused and angered by that decision, claiming their son had never been in a fight before. Their lawsuit, they said, was driven by "outrage at the huge miscarriage of justice done to our son."

The lawsuit accuses Frost of violating Guilford's constitutional protections against unreasonable search and seizure. The lawsuit also accused Frost's department, the Eaton County Sheriff's Office, of failing to properly train its officers on how to conduct traffic stops and use force on suspects.

The family's lawyers tied the killing to the national debate over the use of deadly force by police.

"Deven's tragic and totally unnecessary death represents a disturbing trend of demanding 100 percent compliance with police authority, coupled with zero tolerance of risk of harm to police officers," lawyer Cynthia Heenan said in a statement. "Whatever happened to protect and serve?"

Lloyd declined to comment on the lawsuit, referring NBC News to his June report on the investigation, which said the traffic stop and attempted arrest of Guilford were proper. 

Guilford, a high school junior, was driving to his girlfriend's house after a Saturday night basketball game at a nearby church when he flashed his high beams at a police SUV driven by Frost, according to accounts provided by Guilford's family and police.

The boy told Frost he had flashed his lights because the officer's headlights appeared to be on high. Frost, driving a brand new patrol car, said his high beams were not on, and asked Guilford for his license and registration, according to Lloyd's report. Guilford repeatedly refused. It turned out that he had left his wallet at his girlfriend's.

Frost tried to pull Guilford out of the car, and when the boy resisted, the officer pulled out his Taser, according to the lawsuit and Lloyd's report. Frost ordered Guilford to the ground, and attempted to handcuff him. Soon after, Frost shot Guilford with his Taser, which didn't fully work. Guilford stood up.

In the ensuing fight, Frost's body cam cut out and Guilford's cell phone was left on the ground, recording only audio, according to Lloyd's report.

Seconds later, Frost opened fire.

The entire incident lasted about five minutes.

[elleblue]

Oct 16, 2015 14:46:08 GMT -5 lurkingaw said:

Oct 16, 2015 14:29:56 GMT -5 aurora said:

Am I the only one who is annoyed that the article is all about the laws and details on the high beams and NOT ABOUT THE FACT THAT AN OFFICER KILLED ANOTHER PERSON OVER A TRAFFIC INFRACTION?

On a phone, so can't link, but I just googled and saw an article from the officer's perspective. Had a picture of the officer bloodied up. Apoarently the kid resisted arrest after refusing to show ID. Cop ended up tasing him, but the kid managed to somehow get on top of the cop and repeatedly punxh him in the head. At dome point the cop feared for his life, drew his weapon and unloaded it. I'm not mad. That's what I would have done if the kid was trying to beat me to unconsciousness. Self defense on the cop's part

Forgive me for being skeptical but since there is no video corroborating the officer's version of the fight, and we don't get to hear the other side of the story because Guilford is dead, I take his version with a grain of salt. His account also sounds very similar to the story given by George Zimmerman and I find it difficult to believe a kid would take on an armed police officer over a traffic stop. We have a crisis in this country of officers escalating situations unnecessarily which is apparent by video after video that comes out after the officer's story is backed up by their department and other law enforcement. 

The point is that death should not have been the result in this situation and I'm not convinced the officer did everything in his power to handle this encounter rationally and calmly. 

[orriskitten]

Holy crap, dead for flashing your lights? Bodily removing a teenager from a car because he did this oh so horrible act? Disgusting.

To the original article, I never heard it was illegal. I lived most of my life in the city and the most I've seen it is from people coming in and out of parking lots. Flashing a couple of times lets the other guy know that they can go first. I've also had a police officer flash his headlights at me to let me know mine weren't on, I was in a rental and didn't realize they didn't turn on automatic.

[pixy0stix]

People. From the CNN report:

Frost later writes in a narrative account of the stop submitted as part of the police incident report that he thought that in light of Guilford's challenges, the teen may have calling in reinforcements from a local "sovereign citizen or militia movement." The prosecuting attorney's report references a recent police bulletin that warned officers about such threats.

[pixy0stix]

This cop was out of his goddamned mind.

[Deleted]

Aren't the hoods of most cop cars equipped with cameras?

[pixy0stix]

Oct 16, 2015 15:20:45 GMT -5 lurkingaw said:

Aren't the hoods of most cop cars equipped with cameras?

Dashes, and depends. This cop had a body camera that cut out. 

[MrsAxilla]

Oct 16, 2015 15:16:43 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

People. From the CNN report:

Frost later writes in a narrative account of the stop submitted as part of the police incident report that he thought that in light of Guilford's challenges, the teen may have calling in reinforcements from a local "sovereign citizen or militia movement." The prosecuting attorney's report references a recent police bulletin that warned officers about such threats.

Like, telepathically?  Or was he on his phone during the stop?  What a weird thing to think.

[laurenpetro]

He killed a kid over this? What the hell.

[pixy0stix]

Oct 16, 2015 15:34:23 GMT -5 MrsAxilla said:

Oct 16, 2015 15:16:43 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

People. From the CNN report:

Like, telepathically?  Or was he on his phone during the stop?  What a weird thing to think.

Yeah, the kid made a phone call during the stop.

[aurora]

Oct 16, 2015 15:16:43 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

People. From the CNN report:

Frost later writes in a narrative account of the stop submitted as part of the police incident report that he thought that in light of Guilford's challenges, the teen may have calling in reinforcements from a local "sovereign citizen or militia movement." The prosecuting attorney's report references a recent police bulletin that warned officers about such threats.

[Deleted]

Oct 16, 2015 15:32:22 GMT -5 elleblue said:

Oct 16, 2015 15:22:13 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Dashes, and depends. This cop had a body camera that cut out. 

I won't lie. That's partly what is fueling my skepticism. Oddly convenient that it cut out right as things were escalating, especially when the result is a dead teenager. Now I have no idea if that's something the cop would be able to control (would hope not to be honest) but given how we've seen departments close ranks and tamper with evidence to obfuscate the truth, I wouldn't be shocked to learn that footage went missing. Or something.

See, I had the opposite response. To me it makes sense that if you are rolling around on the ground and someone is on top of you repeatedly punching you, the camera would malfunction ar some point.

Either way, it seems like there is some video evidence and audio evidence of the entire altercation. I retract my earlier statement and will wait to have an opinion until I see and hear both.

But of the evidence shows that the victim got violent with the cop in any way, I can't really fault him. If you have someone not willing to identify themself and resisting arrest, you are going to assume they are a criminal. When they start punching you repeatedly in the head, it's safe to assume they are a violent criminal. And at the end of the day, the cop just wants to make it home alive to his family.

[elleblue]

Oct 16, 2015 15:34:23 GMT -5 MrsAxilla said:

Oct 16, 2015 15:16:43 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

People. From the CNN report:

Like, telepathically?  Or was he on his phone during the stop?  What a weird thing to think.

He had his phone in hand and was recording the traffic stop. 

Honestly, watching the video, there doesn't seem to be enough time between the tasing and the gunshots for the teen to get the advantage in the tussle to the point of the officer fearing for his life. Guillford was belly on the ground, in the process of putting his hands behind his back when he was tased. Then the scuffle and gunshots.

[pixy0stix]

Oct 16, 2015 15:39:34 GMT -5 lurkingaw said:

Oct 16, 2015 15:32:22 GMT -5 elleblue said:

I won't lie. That's partly what is fueling my skepticism. Oddly convenient that it cut out right as things were escalating, especially when the result is a dead teenager. Now I have no idea if that's something the cop would be able to control (would hope not to be honest) but given how we've seen departments close ranks and tamper with evidence to obfuscate the truth, I wouldn't be shocked to learn that footage went missing. Or something.

See, I had the opposite response. To me it makes sense that if you are rolling around on the ground and someone is on top of you repeatedly punching you, the camera would malfunction ar some point.

Either way, it seems like there is some video evidence and audio evidence of the entire altercation. I retract my earlier statement and will wait to have an opinion until I see and hear both.

But of the evidence shows that the victim got violent with the cop in any way, I can't really fault him. If you have someone not willing to identify themself and resisting arrest, you are going to assume they are a criminal. When they start punching you repeatedly in the head, it's safe to assume they are a violent criminal. And at the end of the day, the cop just wants to make it home alive to his family.

But the cop was the one that escalated the encounter by physically pulling him out of the car. Instead of, say... calling in to the station to verify the kid's identity. Or pulling it up on his car computer. Then the cop could have then issued him a ticket and everyone would be alive today.

[elleblue]

Oct 16, 2015 15:39:34 GMT -5 lurkingaw said:

Oct 16, 2015 15:32:22 GMT -5 elleblue said:

I won't lie. That's partly what is fueling my skepticism. Oddly convenient that it cut out right as things were escalating, especially when the result is a dead teenager. Now I have no idea if that's something the cop would be able to control (would hope not to be honest) but given how we've seen departments close ranks and tamper with evidence to obfuscate the truth, I wouldn't be shocked to learn that footage went missing. Or something.

See, I had the opposite response. To me it makes sense that if you are rolling around on the ground and someone is on top of you repeatedly punching you, the camera would malfunction ar some point.

Either way, it seems like there is some video evidence and audio evidence of the entire altercation. I retract my earlier statement and will wait to have an opinion until I see and hear both.

But of the evidence shows that the victim got violent with the cop in any way, I can't really fault him. If you have someone not willing to identify themself and resisting arrest, you are going to assume they are a criminal. When they start punching you repeatedly in the head, it's safe to assume they are a violent criminal. And at the end of the day, the cop just wants to make it home alive to his family.

I hadn't watched the video at that point, so I take back what I wrote above. I finally got a chance to watch and it just now and it shows the camera didn't go out so much as the video capture is erratic, indicative of a scuffle. How did Guillford go from prone on his belly to being in a position to repeatedly punch the officer in the head after being tased?

[jojoandleo]

Why did he try and tase him to begin with? If a cop tased me for no reason, I'd probably try and get the fuck away from him.

[elleblue]

Oct 16, 2015 15:55:05 GMT -5 jojoandleo said:

Why did he try and tase him to begin with? If a cop tased me for no reason, I'd probably try and get the fuck away from him.

I don't know. Guillford was on the ground and physically complying but he was being verbally combative/argumentative. I don't think that warrants a tasing. Another reason why I believe the officer unnecessarily escalated things. 

[ttt]

Oct 16, 2015 15:18:04 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

This cop was out of his goddamned mind.

H's response: how the fuck do you let that escalate like that???

[katfco]

Oct 16, 2015 15:39:34 GMT -5 lurkingaw said:

Oct 16, 2015 15:32:22 GMT -5 elleblue said:

I won't lie. That's partly what is fueling my skepticism. Oddly convenient that it cut out right as things were escalating, especially when the result is a dead teenager. Now I have no idea if that's something the cop would be able to control (would hope not to be honest) but given how we've seen departments close ranks and tamper with evidence to obfuscate the truth, I wouldn't be shocked to learn that footage went missing. Or something.

See, I had the opposite response. To me it makes sense that if you are rolling around on the ground and someone is on top of you repeatedly punching you, the camera would malfunction ar some point.

Either way, it seems like there is some video evidence and audio evidence of the entire altercation. I retract my earlier statement and will wait to have an opinion until I see and hear both.

But of the evidence shows that the victim got violent with the cop in any way, I can't really fault him. If you have someone not willing to identify themself and resisting arrest, you are going to assume they are a criminal. When they start punching you repeatedly in the head, it's safe to assume they are a violent criminal. And at the end of the day, the cop just wants to make it home alive to his family.

The cop had no reason to arrest him, so it was not safe to assume he was violent or a criminal. A cop doesn't get to say, "Well, I have no reason to arrest you, but if you don't comply 100% then you deserve everything I do to you."

At the end of the day, this young man and many like him also just want to make it home alive to their families. And it's pretty hard for them to do that with cops like this going on a massive power trip and being so willing to escalate the violence.