I feel about those what a lot of people feel about economics threads. I know when I'm out of my depth.
Real Talk. *in my Kanye West voice* The spreadsheet was cool and all, but I'm generally not pleased when it becomes LOOK NUMBERS - Class Dismissed.
Like seriously, I still have a serious side-eye about the notion that all states with a higher min wage have a higher unemployment rate, when I pointed out that 10 states throws that whole gambit off kilter. I'm not doing stats everyday, so my stats are rusty. Thanks for reminding me of that politely, but I still maintain you can't just say - oh well that's just going to happen. You silly people don't know enough stats so, let's just blow your questioning away with, well numbers here there and everywhere and I win.
In other words, it cuts both ways. And while I totally get that everyone isn't concerned about social injustice, it's not fair to also say, well we don't get to discuss it because other folks don't want to chime in.
It's fine to not be super fluent in statistics--I think there are other academics or serious writers who are, and you can find their stuff to refute any statistical argument I might make. I thought you brought up good points in that thread, points I wanted to look at. But then Ryan got nominated and my family emergency happened and the board blew up and I just never got back to it.
But as a more general statement, if primary research in general is too hard for this board, then it's probably not someplace I'll get a lot of value. It certainly hasn't always been like that.
Real Talk. *in my Kanye West voice* The spreadsheet was cool and all, but I'm generally not pleased when it becomes LOOK NUMBERS - Class Dismissed.
Like seriously, I still have a serious side-eye about the notion that all states with a higher min wage have a higher unemployment rate, when I pointed out that 10 states throws that whole gambit off kilter. I'm not doing stats everyday, so my stats are rusty. Thanks for reminding me of that politely, but I still maintain you can't just say - oh well that's just going to happen. You silly people don't know enough stats so, let's just blow your questioning away with, well numbers here there and everywhere and I win.
This is exactly the sentiment I feel. Numbers = end of discussion, and if you still disagree, well, you're probably too stupid to understand, so your opinion doesn't matter.
I generally don't go into economics posts anyway b/c my eyes glaze over in boredom. I get spreadsheets, and my stats are pretty good, but I just can't get worked up about it.
It also might be that social issues seem to be taking the forefront of a lot of the discussions around here. And things like gay marriage and women's rights and abortion tend to create a much more visceral and strong reaction than, say, a discussion about the changes needed in the tax code.
I agree. Social issues playing prominently is part of the tone shift. Not only are some people here completely incapable of debating social issues rationally, we can't even discuss prioritizing them rationally. It's ridiculous and pathetic.
If you're talking about some of the more liberal folks who are DIRECTLY impacted by the social views of the GOP and romney/ryan platform, I think it's unfair to say people aren't being rationale in their discussion. If someone on this board is not given equal rights, how else should they feel but fired up, upset, mad, frustrated? How would you feel if someone on this board had the position that you were less of a person than them b/c of something completely out of their control? The GOP is telling the LGBT community that they do not deserve equal rights, that they are "less than" heterosexuals. If you were a member of the LGBT how would that make you feel? Would you be able to be rationale with someone who supported that position?
I think when you are the persons being discriminated against, it's nearly impossible to be rationale. I am sure this is how women felt when they didn't have the right to vote, how african american's felt when they were openly discriminated against, etc. My DH has been a target of racial profiling and he is like the softest, most harmless guy ever and I see how it makes him feel. I can't imagine how I would feel if I were a member of a group where a presidential candidate was campaigning against my equal rights.
Post by lyssbobiss, Command, B613 on Aug 29, 2012 15:38:50 GMT -5
Maybe what we need is a giant airing of grievances thread. I feel like there are too many personal attacks or people bringing up shit that x person did three months ago and didn't like their tone. Let's just have one big smackdown and be done with it.
"This prick is asking for someone here to bring him to task Somebody give me some dirt on this vacuous mass so we can at last unmask him I'll pull the trigger on it, someone load the gun and cock it While we were all watching, he got Washington in his pocket."
Personally, I have always felt some of what you are feeling Druid since when I came to this board I was a staunch social conservative. So, in a way, most of what you are feeling doesn't really phase me all that much. In fact, I feel like saying, "welcome to my world".
I do think that because I don't really relate to most of the posters on both sides I can sometimes see things differently. I tend to think the main reason for the most recent "change" in the tenor of the board is the Ryan pick and what that means to most of the board (read: the liberals). I think that is when it started getting ugly in here.
I think what really pissed *me* off the other day was the thread where AW and I were discussing birth control/abortifacients and how it relates to our beliefs. The reactions to the opinions from religious posters who weren't even pushing for illegal birth control were ridiculous and over-the-top. It makes me think that anyone who did this and normally states that "they don't care what people believe as long as they don't make it part of the law" is full of crap.
In addtion, the reactions in that thread were very much like the reactions that MrsDL got re: abortion recently. Does anyone even care what any given poster is REALLY saying? Or do they just want to see that person the way they want to see them and argue for the sake of arguing?
Y4M - No, primary research is fine. I do that daily. I think the board grasps that just fine. I'm just pulling the latest spreadsheet as an example. It was kinda like - look here, see numbers living wage = bad.
And I didn't know you had something blow up that you couldn't come back to the thread. When you made that list my first thought was TN and that it doesn't hold true because our unemployment rate has been over the natl average for a minute now. But, I was totally curious to see if we were the outlier. And we weren't so I was all - wait, wait. If there are other states, then I don't think that the numbers are valid enough to hold true. But, again I could see how you were framing it.
And here's the thing - I don't WANT you to just say well, no one likes my numbers no need to play. If I don't know jack about a subject, I don't always weigh in. But, I tend to read the majority of the posts on foreign relations, IIOY's doomsday finances, your poll posts, etc but it doesn't mean I always need to comment.
I've said this before, I find value in nearly everyone. Some folks make my ass itch more than others (stealing Sou's phrase here), but I really just try to treat folks with some respect. Even if my eyeballs roll out of my head, I try to edit my comments before posting so that it's not mean. If I'm stabby, it's usually directed at the author of the foolishness-laden article that was posted. With the exception of Cas because she worked my last good nerve that day.
To me it's just become clear that the vast majority of posters here hold the opinion espoused by Dylanite above, and they come here to get back pats for their positions and snark directed at people who don't agree with the majority.
I like debate. I like intelligent debate better. I don't even mind snarky debate. But I'm over debating much on this board because it's never about seeing the other side, or genuinely wanting to understand for the most part. You know, actual debating? It's about proving that the theory is correct - there is no reason to vote for a Republican unless you're an old, white dude or an ignorant bigot.
So you got me. I'm actually a 60 year old white male. And bonus: I'm also an ignorant bigot.
With that said, there are still things I enjoy about the board so I stop by for those and filter out the rest. But my tip for the future - if anyone is actually interested in seeing the other side and debating - is to change the 'tude, tone, etc. if you actually want the other side to respond. Right now, it's just not worth it, and ignoring what I don't like works for me. But it isn't going to ever get more of the other side here or encourage debate. It's going to encourage more of the same, so if the current state of the board is fine with everyone, then no big deal.
I'm a lurker / very occasional poster who is a conservative and feel that this is pretty spot on for why I don't post my thoughts in threads more. After lurking before posting to try to learn the rules of the road here, I got the feeling that the majority of posters think that conservatives are uneducated or less intelligent (I remember that being in a confession thread but don't have it saved for you as a source!) and that basically any female was a traitor to her gender for voting R. It just made me feel like no one would really take anything I said seriously and wasn't interested in learning about a conservative POV on issues.
I agree with the point that was made about their being two groups in the Republican party. I disagree with a lot of GOP policy around social issues. However, the main ideals of the GOP I do agree with, so I express my disagreement with them by communicating to the party, not by switching parties. My hope is that if people stay and fight for the party they will eventually change their position on some of these issues.
So... I got called out for routinely posting remarks just like the one above - the gas can on the fire. And I said OK, I'll take that, and try to not do that anymore.
But props to you for using the martyr fail-safe not once but twice in the same thread. Maybe if you keep repeating it, we'll actually feel like martyrs. Or not.
So... I got called out for routinely posting remarks just like the one above - the gas can on the fire. And I said OK, I'll take that, and try to not do that anymore.
But props to you for using the martyr fail-safe not once but twice in the same thread. Maybe if you keep repeating it, we'll actually feel like martyrs. Or not.
She's been called out several times over the last several days.
So... I got called out for routinely posting remarks just like the one above - the gas can on the fire. And I said OK, I'll take that, and try to not do that anymore.
But props to you for using the martyr fail-safe not once but twice in the same thread. Maybe if you keep repeating it, we'll actually feel like martyrs. Or not.
She's been called out several times over the last several days.
Yup. I'm genuinely frustrated at what the board's become and since I have to go soon I decided to call out some repeat offenders. I have no problem with you calling my post out.
WTF?
So it's okay for you to take discourse down a notch? You've just discounted your whole argument.
And how am I a repeat offender?! Offender of what?
Personally, I have always felt some of what you are feeling Druid since when I came to this board I was a staunch social conservative. So, in a way, most of what you are feeling doesn't really phase me all that much. In fact, I feel like saying, "welcome to my world".
I do think that because I don't really relate to most of the posters on both sides I can sometimes see things differently. I tend to think the main reason for the most recent "change" in the tenor of the board is the Ryan pick and what that means to most of the board (read: the liberals). I think that is when it started getting ugly in here.
I think what really pissed *me* off the other day was the thread where AW and I were discussing birth control/abortifacients and how it relates to our beliefs. The reactions to the opinions from religious posters who weren't even pushing for illegal birth control was ridiculous and over-the-top. It makes me think that anyone who did this and normally states that "they don't care what people believe as long as they don't make it part of the law" is full of crap.
In addtion, the reactions in that thread were very much like the reactions that MrsDL got re: abortion recently. Does anyone even care what any given poster is REALLY saying? Or do they just want to see that person the way they want to see them and argue for the sake of arguing.
I'm sorry, but more and more often whenever someone disagrees with you or AW I'm hearing you guys immediately assume it has to do with your religion. Like, that's just the default reaction for you guys. Nobody was giving you shit at all, the only discussion you were even really involved in was with Kuus on if birth control pills still made it possible for an egg to be fertilized and she was, as far as I could see, having a fairly snark-free discussion with you.
And the fact that you can't/aren't willing/don't care to see where maybe, just maybe, what we see is valid rahter than just a "default reaction" only further proves my point.
Post by basilosaurus on Aug 29, 2012 15:49:24 GMT -5
2V, I think with that thread, though, you contributed to the tone. By quoting me and then saying something about how everyone was sarcastic, I then had to fight the urge to respond with a WTF, why do I even bother nasty response. A generalization like that does no good. And many people were responding without snark, so I probably wasn't alone in just wanting to avoid further discussion.
So... I got called out for routinely posting remarks just like the one above - the gas can on the fire. And I said OK, I'll take that, and try to not do that anymore.
But props to you for using the martyr fail-safe not once but twice in the same thread. Maybe if you keep repeating it, we'll actually feel like martyrs. Or not.
Eh I was just making a play on those "days since last injury: 32" signs you see in workplaces. I'm sorry I said the word "martyr" twice in this thread.
2V, I think with that thread, though, you contributed to the tone. By quoting me and then saying something about how everyone was sarcastic, I then had to fight the urge to respond with a WTF, why do I even bother nasty response. A generalization like that does no good. And many people were responding without snark, so I probably wasn't alone in just wanting to avoid further discussion.
BS I contributed to the tone. I wasn't referring to you and posted as such in a later post. Maybe you need to go back and read it.
So... I got called out for routinely posting remarks just like the one above - the gas can on the fire. And I said OK, I'll take that, and try to not do that anymore.
But props to you for using the martyr fail-safe not once but twice in the same thread. Maybe if you keep repeating it, we'll actually feel like martyrs. Or not.
She's been called out several times over the last several days.
And AW got called out for, as usual, trying to apply her own personal definition of something to a broader subject that already had an established definition in the context of the discussion.
Which is exactly why I used the example of a discussion of the divinity of Jesus in context to the Catholic faith and having someone roll in all "well it depends on your definition of divinity." No, it fucking doesn't, because YOUR definition is not in discussion here, it is the definition within the context of the Catholic faith. It's already been definied. This discussion is in reference to that definition. Now, if you want to have a separate high-level discussion on what the definition of divinity is, fine, but don't try and jam your own definition of something into a topic where a widely accepted and established definition in context to the topic at hand is being used.
No..not a good analogy at all because in order for that to be an appropriate analogy, she would have to be telling me that her definition is the Catholic definition. She was in no way telling everyone that her definition of an abortion as a Christian is the medical definition. She was telling everyone what the definition of an abortion is to her and because of that definition it affects how she views certain methods of birth control. But that's not allowed!!!
I didn't read past the 2nd page but I'll throw in my $0.02.
I like politics/discussing politics a lot. It's actually my job. That being said, I find this board very hostile in general. It's one thing to be passionate and get heated, it's another to name-call and generalize groups of people. And no, I didn't just join after TN, I've lurked for quite some time.
No one's been hostile towards me on here but I still don't think this is a place for open discussion. It frequently seems like people slap each other on the backs for being so brilliant while the other side is obviously so stupid and simple.
How can you grow or help other people learn by acting like this? You can't. To my knowledge, no one has ever convinced the other side by being rude.
Post by copzgirl1171 on Aug 29, 2012 15:54:52 GMT -5
The thing is that we have all learned each others triggers and when things break down it's easier to key a trigger for a knee jerk response in order to snap someone back at attention for another round of let me change your mind.
I just don't understand the mentality that any of us headstrong women/men will be apt to look at the same argument and all of a sudden go "well shit, I don't know why I didnt see that all along". Yea, I might see your side but chances are damn good that seeing your side and coming over to your side isn't gonna happen.
BS I contributed to the tone. I wasn't referring to you and posted as such in a later post. Maybe you need to go back and read it.
Bullshit. You rolled in with snark and then immediately added "so let the "oh my god the matyrs begin" and *hair flip*." You so added to the tone. You are not nearly as innocent in all this shit as you would like to believe.
I reacted to the BS in that thread. I in no way intiated it.
She's been called out several times over the last several days.
She...who...what now?
You've been called out about your posts the last several days. I don't know if you just skip over them, or they don't even phase you and you continue on.
FWIW, this isn't an attack post at you, just a "you're not the only one DP" post.
I really, intensely, dislike these navel gazing threads because they invariably turn into, "but the other side does it too!" whine fests, when in reality we're all calling each other out on our faults all.the.time. It's just that we rarely remember when it happens to other people because it doesn't involve us. Or if it's just a random post here and there, or a little snark exchanged, it doesn't register.
2V, I think with that thread, though, you contributed to the tone. By quoting me and then saying something about how everyone was sarcastic, I then had to fight the urge to respond with a WTF, why do I even bother nasty response. A generalization like that does no good. And many people were responding without snark, so I probably wasn't alone in just wanting to avoid further discussion.
BS I contributed to the tone. I wasn't referring to you and posted as such in a later post. Maybe you need to go back and read it.
No, I know you said you weren't referring to me, later, after I bit my tongue and nicely asked for a clarification. That's my point. Generalizing makes everyone defensive, and not even calling out the right person makes someone (me in that case) more likely to escalate and respond in kind. We've all done it, it's ok, but don't pretend a who? me? innocence.
You've been called out about your posts the last several days. I don't know if you just skip over them, or they don't even phase you and you continue on.
FWIW, this isn't an attack post at you, just a "you're not the only one DP" post.
I really, intensely, dislike these navel gazing threads because they invariably turn into, "but the other side does it too!" whine fests, when in reality we're all calling each other out on our faults all.the.time. It's just that we rarely remember when it happens to other people because it doesn't involve us. Or if it's just a random post here and there, or a little snark exchanged, it doesn't register.
Post by copzgirl1171 on Aug 29, 2012 16:02:04 GMT -5
I will also confess to using heyjude as my doppleganger on the board. I find her post concise and sometimes abrasive but I am usually nodding my head. So when she gets banged around I feel it.
I will also confess to using heyjude as my doppleganger on the board. I find her post concise and sometimes abrasive but I am usually nodding my head. So when she gets banged around I feel it.
BS I contributed to the tone. I wasn't referring to you and posted as such in a later post. Maybe you need to go back and read it.
No, I know you said you weren't referring to me, later, after I bit my tongue and nicely asked for a clarification. That's my point. Generalizing makes everyone defensive, and not even calling out the right person makes someone (me in that case) more likely to escalate and respond in kind. We've all done it, it's ok, but don't pretend a who? me? innocence.
Wait, so now when we call out sarcasm in a thread, we need to be specific with the poster names?
And wrt to my sarcasm in that post it was a reaction to the rest of the crap and the fact that I do tend to get called a "martyr" in those sorts of interactions. I fully expected to hear it.