I guess this is vent and asking for advice? I'm still very upset today.
I'm very concerned and unsettled with what happened at my house last night. My SIL and her kids came over like they do every weekend. The kids were being kids and the 2.5 year old was being particularly unruly due to being cooped up the past few days with an ear infection.
He's totally in to throwing things right now (apple he was eating went straight for the TV). Nothing broke, but he was put in time out several times. On the last time out, SIL threatened that if he got up from time out again she would get "The Spoon." And she went for one of our wooden spoons in the kitchen.
H flipped the fuck out on SIL. Yelling at her not to fucking touch the kid with a spoon. Which in turn made her freak out telling her kids that they're leaving. And going off on MIL about how she's not coming here if we're going to take over her parenting, she's a failure, we're always undermining her/BIL, they aren't using their hands because they want to keep their hands for hugs and high fives.
1. It's MIL that is always undermining BIL and SIL's parenting choices. "Oh mommy and daddy said you can't have any candy? Here's an oreo" kind of shit. H and I try to help with stopping the kids from standing on the coffee table, throwing shit, etc.
2. YOU ARE HITTING YOUR KID WITH AN OBJECT. How the fuck is that better than your fucking hand? I am not one to condone spanking, but I generally think that's up to the parent to decide. Before now, they (BIL & SIL) have never shown that they were for spanking. I doubt the 5 year old had never been spanked before this recent turn of behavior.
After MIL walked SIL and the kids out. MIL stormed back in the house making it about how she's getting punished and not going to see the kids. I flipped out on MIL telling her it's not fucking about her, it's about the fucking kids are getting abused. Are we supposed to stay silent and watch SIL/BIL hit their kids?
It took a while for everyone to calm down. But fuck. I couldn't not say anything to SIL, so a few hours after she left with the kids I texted her. I don't know if it was right thing to do in the situation, if she'll read it, or if she'll take it to heart. This is seriously the last thing I ever thought she was capable of. She normally a loving, caring person.
On top of this SIL and BIL are moving out of state next month. I know this is a very stressful time for all. This is not an excuse. And this worries me even more that we can't protect the kids from this shit. I'm this close to calling CPS. Maybe I should have last night? I don't fucking know.
I have to get back to work in a few minutes, but I will check back for replies as I can.
Is it possible that she was just overwhelmed and stressed and said that as an empty threat? My mom used to threaten the wooden spoon all the time. But only used it twice that I recall. Not that I am condoning using it in any way, but if you have never witnessed any other incidents, I'd give her the benefit of the doubt that she is in over her head right now and didn't really mean it. If I am right, I hope she gets the help she needs.
Is it possible that she was just overwhelmed and stressed and said that as an empty threat? My mom used to threaten the wooden spoon all the time. But only used it twice that I recall. Not that I am condoning using it in any way, but if you have never witnessed any other incidents, I'd give her the benefit of the doubt that she is in over her head right now and didn't really mean it. If I am right, I hope she gets the help she needs.
No. This is what we thought last week. We thought it was an empty threat when BIL said it last week. When SIL actually got the spoon last night, she was physically going to spank the 2.5 year old with it.
My mom used the wooden spoon threat, honestly seeing it was a reminder to straighten up and she carried it in her purse until I was in 2nd grade. She never had to use it it was just the idea of it. That said your SIL may not have intended to actually hit him with it so much as let him have a visual reminder that he was on thin ice. It sounds like your SIL was at the end of her rope and didn't handle the criticism well. It might have worked better to offer to take over so she could eat rather then handling it the way you did. Spanking is not something I do but people don't take kindly to having their parenting judged so it's often better to find less direct ways of interceding.
My mom used the wooden spoon threat, honestly seeing it was a reminder to straighten up and she carried it in her purse until I was in 2nd grade. She never had to use it it was just the idea of it. That said your SIL may not have intended to actually hit him with it so much as let him have a visual reminder that he was on thin ice. It sounds like your SIL was at the end of her rope and didn't handle the criticism well. It might have worked better to offer to take over so she could eat rather then handling it the way you did. Spanking is not something I do but people don't take kindly to having their parenting judged so it's often better to find less direct ways of interceding.
This.
Also, CPS? Really? I don't agree with spanking either, but IMO spoon threats =/= child abuse. You want them removed and put in foster care? Not that it would necessarily go that far, just saying you should think about what that means before you do it.
I get you. My sister spanked her kid at my kid's birthday party in front of everyone and I freaked out on her. Nothing good came out of it, that I can promise you.
I don't know the laws about corporal punishment, but I honestly don't think calling CPS would do anything other than to insure you never see those kids again. Maybe sending studies about it not being effective or something could help? Literature with other types of discipline?
It's uncomfortable when others (especially relatives) discipline their children in ways you don't condone. My BIL spanked my 3 year-old nephew last time they were over. No one realized what was happening until we heard the swats. It made me very uncomfortable (we don't use any form of spanking or physical punishment) especially with it happening in our house, but I don't know that I would have interceded if I knew if it was going to happen beforehand.
I guess I don't know if your H handled it in the best way either. And I'm sure your SIL was probably also stressed out from having a kid with an ear infection.
My mom hit us with a wooden spoon, and based on my experiences as a kid, I've made it very clear to H that hitting/spanking will not be a part of our discipline. However, if my sibling yelled at me about my parenting - especially in front of my kids - I would be PISSED. I think he was right to intervene, but he should have asked to talk to her in the other room or something. Yelling at her is not going to get her to step back and think about what she's doing.
I would be extremely hesitant to call CPS because that will likely put a stop to your involvement in their lives. I would try to call her and apologize for handling it poorly, but say that you feel very strongly about hitting (especially at that age and with a wooden spoon). Ask how you can help. Maybe offer to take the kids off her hands for a few hours or something. Of course, if you think they're being abused or act scared or show other concerning warning signs then you should call CPS, but I personally wouldn't jump to that for what you said happened.
Post by thinkofthesoldiers on Feb 1, 2016 16:39:49 GMT -5
You don't get a say unless it is actual abuse. This isn't it. CPS would laugh you right off the phone. You can disagree all day long, but it is her kid.
My mom used the wooden spoon threat, honestly seeing it was a reminder to straighten up and she carried it in her purse until I was in 2nd grade. She never had to use it it was just the idea of it. That said your SIL may not have intended to actually hit him with it so much as let him have a visual reminder that he was on thin ice. It sounds like your SIL was at the end of her rope and didn't handle the criticism well. It might have worked better to offer to take over so she could eat rather then handling it the way you did. Spanking is not something I do but people don't take kindly to having their parenting judged so it's often better to find less direct ways of interceding.
My mom actually did hit us with a spoon but everything else is exactly what I was going to say. I'm not saying that your SIL was making some good choices, but I can see how she got to where she was. I think a conversation about how she is feeling and what you can do to help would be a great place to start. Frankly, an apology for flipping the fuck out on her would go a long way and help pave a road to being able to help.
I may be in the minority here but I don't think this is CPS worthy. Unless spanking is illegal where you live, that is their choice. They are the parents. I don't think it's right either, but it's not really your place. If you really want to, maybe you can email her some alternative ways of redirection to try out (I would only do this if you and she generally get along well, as she'll otherwise just see it as an attack on her parenting). I...think you're overreacting.
I'm sorry, I don't really have any advice. But I don't think I'd call CPS. I think I'd just kind of let things lie for now and see what happens if/when they come over again.
It's sad, but there's not really anything you can do since they'll be moving out of state soon.
How upsetting. I know it's not cool to judge other people's parenting style, but I just can't abide corporal punishment. Your H shouldn't have gone off on her, though. That's not cool. It seems there should have been a way to deescalate without anyone flipping out on either mother or child.
That said, I would make it clear that you do not allow anyone to hit anyone else in your home. If they can't live with that, they don't visit your home.
2.5-5 years are really hard. It's especially stressful if the kid is acting up at family gathering. I am not saying that swatting your kid with a spoon is the right way to handle things. But I don't think it's the same as full on beating your child.
Spanking and discipline is such a personal family thing. Some families spank and others don't.
Because of how fast you said things had escalated, there are probably other circumstances going on. Not many people explode that quickly without already being tense/defensive.
Don't call CPS.
I would feel the same way if I saw this with my niece or nephew, so I feel you. But I don't think there's much you can do, other than voicing your opinion.
My mom used the wooden spoon threat, honestly seeing it was a reminder to straighten up and she carried it in her purse until I was in 2nd grade. She never had to use it it was just the idea of it. That said your SIL may not have intended to actually hit him with it so much as let him have a visual reminder that he was on thin ice. It sounds like your SIL was at the end of her rope and didn't handle the criticism well. It might have worked better to offer to take over so she could eat rather then handling it the way you did. Spanking is not something I do but people don't take kindly to having their parenting judged so it's often better to find less direct ways of interceding.
By both parents now saying they will not use their hands but for "love" and they are admitting to using a spoon. No it was not just a threat. Like I said to papie, when BIL first made a comment, we did think it was just a threat.
And I agree that it does sound like my SIL is at the end of her rope. This is why we've tried to be supportive to that. We often have the kids at our house multiple times a week.
We don't even have to bother offering to take over because mother already does take over. SIL is the one who was telling MIL, "Go get your dinner, I'll handle the kids." MIL takes over more than she should. I think SIL was directing her anger towards us because H called her out on the spoon and she was being defensive.
Like I said about spanking, I feel it is up to the parent to decide. A spoon is not spanking. They fucking hurt 10 times worse. Have you actually been hit with a spoon before?
Oh man. That is fucked up. What did you say in your text?
"First, I'm sorry you feel we're trying to undermine your parenting. I have never meand to do anything but help and try to support. I am sorry. Second, I will not stand by silently and let you hit your child with a spoon instead of your hand. That is abuse. I hope you can see that. You're the last person I ever thought I would say this to. You are loving and caring. We love you and your children."
My mom used the wooden spoon threat, honestly seeing it was a reminder to straighten up and she carried it in her purse until I was in 2nd grade. She never had to use it it was just the idea of it. That said your SIL may not have intended to actually hit him with it so much as let him have a visual reminder that he was on thin ice. It sounds like your SIL was at the end of her rope and didn't handle the criticism well. It might have worked better to offer to take over so she could eat rather then handling it the way you did. Spanking is not something I do but people don't take kindly to having their parenting judged so it's often better to find less direct ways of interceding.
This.
Also, CPS? Really? I don't agree with spanking either, but IMO spoon threats =/= child abuse. You want them removed and put in foster care? Not that it would necessarily go that far, just saying you should think about what that means before you do it.
Just for curiosity's sake went over to a co worker who was a CPS investigator. She says unless marks are left for over an hr, not child abuse.
Oh man. That is fucked up. What did you say in your text?
"First, I'm sorry you feel we're trying to undermine your parenting. I have never meand to do anything but help and try to support. I am sorry. Second, I will not stand by silently and let you hit your child with a spoon instead of your hand. That is abuse. I hope you can see that. You're the last person I ever thought I would say this to. You are loving and caring. We love you and your children."
Oh man. That is fucked up. What did you say in your text?
"First, I'm sorry you feel we're trying to undermine your parenting. I have never meand to do anything but help and try to support. I am sorry. Second, I will not stand by silently and let you hit your child with a spoon instead of your hand. That is abuse. I hope you can see that. You're the last person I ever thought I would say this to. You are loving and caring. We love you and your children."
i think your first sentence and your 4th don't EXACTLY jive. you WERE trying to undermine her parenting, by your H "flipping out" on her and her choice of discipline.
It's uncomfortable when others (especially relatives) discipline their children in ways you don't condone. My BIL spanked my 3 year-old nephew last time they were over. No one realized what was happening until we heard the swats. It made me very uncomfortable (we don't use any form of spanking or physical punishment) especially with it happening in our house, but I don't know that I would have interceded if I knew if it was going to happen beforehand.
I guess I don't know if your H handled it in the best way either. And I'm sure your SIL was probably also stressed out from having a kid with an ear infection.
It's definitely a tough situation.
No, H did not handle it well. As a child of someone who used a paddle on him many times, he let his emotions get the best of him. He yelled at her that in no uncertain terms there will be the use of wooden spoons as punishment in our house. Obviously I'm paraphrasing. This is when SIL peaced out. All while the kids are telling us they're supposed to stay and get their baths and they don't want to leave.
We do not hit or spank. That being said, others do.
I would go so far as saying that to SIL, if you want to spank in your house, that is your choice. That doesn't fly in our house. I personally do not care if it undermines their parenting, it is a bigger assault on my beliefs against violence. I do not want to see kids getting hit and I do not want my kids to see other kids getting hit. Really, I don't want anyone to see anyone getting hit.
Between being yelled at and then getting that text, I don't think I would listen to anything you had to say and would likely not speak to or see you for a long time (or allow either of you to see my kids). You guys are clearly judging her and calling her an abusive parent. That is a HUGE deal. You call her a loving and caring person so clearly you otherwise think she's a good person and mother. I'm not saying that this is okay and I would feel like I had to intervene if I saw something like this happen with my nephew, but I hope that I would be able to stay level headed and find a way to address it in a productive way.
My mom used the wooden spoon threat, honestly seeing it was a reminder to straighten up and she carried it in her purse until I was in 2nd grade. She never had to use it it was just the idea of it. That said your SIL may not have intended to actually hit him with it so much as let him have a visual reminder that he was on thin ice. It sounds like your SIL was at the end of her rope and didn't handle the criticism well. It might have worked better to offer to take over so she could eat rather then handling it the way you did. Spanking is not something I do but people don't take kindly to having their parenting judged so it's often better to find less direct ways of interceding.
By both parents now saying they will not use their hands but for "love" and they are admitting to using a spoon. No it was not just a threat. Like I said to papie, when BIL first made a comment, we did think it was just a threat.
And I agree that it does sound like my SIL is at the end of her rope. This is why we've tried to be supportive to that. We often have the kids at our house multiple times a week.
We don't even have to bother offering to take over because mother already does take over. SIL is the one who was telling MIL, "Go get your dinner, I'll handle the kids." MIL takes over more than she should. I think SIL was directing her anger towards us because H called her out on the spoon and she was being defensive.
Like I said about spanking, I feel it is up to the parent to decide. A spoon is not spanking. They fucking hurt 10 times worse. Have you actually been hit with a spoon before?
I was spanked with a spoon as a child. Notice I say SPANKED with a spoon. My parents were not "hitting" me. They were disciplining me. I'd say it happened maybe 10 times in my life and for just reasons. It stung for 10 seconds and it was over.
My mom used the wooden spoon threat, honestly seeing it was a reminder to straighten up and she carried it in her purse until I was in 2nd grade. She never had to use it it was just the idea of it. That said your SIL may not have intended to actually hit him with it so much as let him have a visual reminder that he was on thin ice. It sounds like your SIL was at the end of her rope and didn't handle the criticism well. It might have worked better to offer to take over so she could eat rather then handling it the way you did. Spanking is not something I do but people don't take kindly to having their parenting judged so it's often better to find less direct ways of interceding.
By both parents now saying they will not use their hands but for "love" and they are admitting to using a spoon. No it was not just a threat. Like I said to papie, when BIL first made a comment, we did think it was just a threat.
And I agree that it does sound like my SIL is at the end of her rope. This is why we've tried to be supportive to that. We often have the kids at our house multiple times a week.
We don't even have to bother offering to take over because mother already does take over. SIL is the one who was telling MIL, "Go get your dinner, I'll handle the kids." MIL takes over more than she should. I think SIL was directing her anger towards us because H called her out on the spoon and she was being defensive.
Like I said about spanking, I feel it is up to the parent to decide. A spoon is not spanking. They fucking hurt 10 times worse. Have you actually been hit with a spoon before?
OF course she was defensive, Her mother/MIL tries to parent her children without her permission and your H made a scene about how she was parenting. I'm sure it does (like I said my mom never actually used it that I can remember) but the way you handled it did not help deescalate the situation which should've been the goal. I also doubt your non-apology apology helped either. Take a breath and calm down, this is not CPS worthy they won't do anything without marks and even then it would be parenting class at most if not just a follow up so calling isn't going to do anything except alienate you from them when it sounds like your SIL and the kids could use your help and support. A better way to handle it would be to show some understanding 'It must be so frustrating when [2,5 yr old] won't listen I've heard that 1,2,3 magic or Love and Logic have great discipline suggestions that can help."
I popped Joanna on the butt with my hand the other morning because nothing else was getting her to stop flailing around and put her coat on, and we needed to leave. (FTR it didn't work and I gave up and let her go w/o the coat, which I should have done in the first place.) So I get that kids are frustrating. But I don't think that means you should just stand by while your SIL hits her toddler with a spoon. Maybe she was going to, maybe she wasn't, but what was agnes supposed to do, sit there and wait for it to happen? I don't know if I would have had the courage to speak up, but it was the right thing for her to do IMO.
Yes, she should allow the SIL to make her own parenting choices. She's not beating her child.
"First, I'm sorry you feel we're trying to undermine your parenting. I have never meand to do anything but help and try to support. I am sorry. Second, I will not stand by silently and let you hit your child with a spoon instead of your hand. That is abuse. I hope you can see that. You're the last person I ever thought I would say this to. You are loving and caring. We love you and your children."
Well. Good luck with that.
I think the best that you can say is that you will not allow corporal punishment used in your home. Period. It is your home and that is absolutely your right. I am sure it was super hard for your dh to see her make these threats. I agree that spanking (whether with a hand or an implement) is not good discipline. But unless there is something else going on it isn't abuse.
Please don't threaten to call CPS unless you see marks/bruises/fearful behavior in the children. Having that call made when it isn't really warranted (even if you are anti-spanking) can really fuck up lives. When I was a teenager a family I babysat for had that happen to them b/c one of the kids (6ish years old at the time, with two younger brothers) told her teacher that the bruise on her leg was from her dad spanking her even though it wasn't. She had gotten a swat on the butt for something and jerked away, running into their coffee table. That's what gave her the bruise, but it didn't matter. That family was subjected to random CPS checks until the youngest turned 18, it was awful. It still comes up on their record so they couldn't be foster parents when they wanted to do that.