I think everyone here can be in agreement that hitting a kid with a spoon at ANY age is a really shitty parenting decision. However it unfortunately does not constitute as child abuse or warrant a phone call to CPS whose investigators are probably up to their ear in cases involving broken bones, gun violence, drugs in the home the list goes on.
The only reason I even bring that up is because some of my co workers are former CPS case workers and I have heard ABSOLUTE horror stories of the kinds of cases they have faced and it breaks my heart.
And while I think that physical discipline is really shitty human behavior and parenting, I cannot get it up enough to the "call CPS" level know what kinds of things go on in that dept.
I think everyone here can be in agreement that hitting a kid with a spoon at ANY age is a really shitty parenting decision.
No, I don't think everyone here actually agrees.
It seems like most people in here are siding with the sister-in-law.
And I think age absolutely does matter.
It may not constitute "child abuse," but hitting a two-year-old with a spoon is absolutely morally reprehensible. Period.
I am both siding with the OP AND under the distinct impression that she and her husband are so high horsey I'd feel tempted to hit them both with a rubber chicken.*
*you totally thought I was going to say wooden spoon, didn't you?
It seems like most people in here are siding with the sister-in-law.
And I think age absolutely does matter.
It may not constitute "child abuse," but hitting a two-year-old with a spoon is absolutely morally reprehensible. Period.
I am both siding with the OP AND under the distinct impression that she and her husband are so high horsey I'd feel tempted to hit them both with a rubber chicken.*
*you totally thought I was going to say wooden spoon, didn't you?
Do I show my non-mom-ness when I wanted you to follow your asterisked note with, "If so: DRINK!" ETA: C'mon guys: it's caucus night!!! HIL-LA-RY!!
It seems like most people in here are siding with the sister-in-law.
And I think age absolutely does matter.
It may not constitute "child abuse," but hitting a two-year-old with a spoon is absolutely morally reprehensible. Period.
I am both siding with the OP AND under the distinct impression that she and her husband are so high horsey I'd feel tempted to hit them both with a rubber chicken.*
*you totally thought I was going to say wooden spoon, didn't you?
LOL.
But no!
agnes is seriously one of the sweetest, kindest people I've met. I don't even know how to describe how mellow and pleasant she is. She just...is! Any SoCal Nestie can back me up here. And she sort of sounds like Minnie Mouse (this is meant to be a compliment -- seriously adorable and not a mean bone in her body)!
So I just *feel* the anguish and horror through the screen.
If agnes is this upset, something really upsetting occurred.
So I've been reading through summaries of state laws regarding abuse.
And now I'm depressed. It is sad how much one has to do to be considered abuse.
Yep. Plenty of unfit parents slapping the shit out of/screaming at their kids and berating them into emotional nothingness. I can think of three unfit parents in my family, alone. Don't worry, people, not having kids. lol.
I am both siding with the OP AND under the distinct impression that she and her husband are so high horsey I'd feel tempted to hit them both with a rubber chicken.*
*you totally thought I was going to say wooden spoon, didn't you?
LOL.
But no!
agnes is seriously one of the sweetest, kindest people I've met. I don't even know how to describe how mellow and pleasant she is. She just...is! Any SoCal Nestie can back me up here. And she sort of sounds like Minnie Mouse (this is meant to be a compliment -- seriously adorable and not a mean bone in her body)!
So I just *feel* the anguish and horror through the screen.
If agnes is this upset, something really upsetting occurred.
Okay. I believe you.
I also know if I got an allegedly conciliatory text like the one she sent I'd ice the sender out for a good long while.
agnes is seriously one of the sweetest, kindest people I've met. I don't even know how to describe how mellow and pleasant she is. She just...is! Any SoCal Nestie can back me up here. And she sort of sounds like Minnie Mouse (this is meant to be a compliment -- seriously adorable and not a mean bone in her body)!
So I just *feel* the anguish and horror through the screen.
If agnes is this upset, something really upsetting occurred.
Okay. I believe you.
I also know if I got an allegedly conciliatory text like the one she sent I'd ice the sender out for a good long while.
Oh, for sure. But, honestly, I don't know how I'd react in this position.
And, while her text was out of line, I'm not sure I can actually disagree with the sentiment.
I don't know what the right course of action would've been here.
But I simply couldn't believe that no posters were condemning the hitting of a two-year-old with a spoon.
I think everyone here can be in agreement that hitting a kid with a spoon at ANY age is a really shitty parenting decision.
No, I don't think everyone here actually agrees.
It seems like most people in here are siding with the sister-in-law.
And I think age absolutely does matter.
It may not constitute "child abuse," but hitting a two-year-old with a spoon is absolutely morally reprehensible. Period.
I definitely don't agree with the SIL. I find any kind of physical punishment disgusting, especially when I think of it being used on a toddler.
But by reacting that way Agnes and her H may have distanced themselves from SIL and her kids. Which means if things continue in that way (i.e. more spankings with spoons) they wouldn't be around to prevent it again (in a more effective way).
It seems like most people in here are siding with the sister-in-law.
And I think age absolutely does matter.
It may not constitute "child abuse," but hitting a two-year-old with a spoon is absolutely morally reprehensible. Period.
I definitely don't agree with the SIL. I find any kind of physical punishment disgusting, especially when I think of it being used on a toddler.
But by reacting that way Agnes and her H may have distanced themselves from SIL and her kids. Which means if things continue in that way (i.e. more spankings with spoons) they wouldn't be around to prevent it again (in a more effective way).
The sister-in-law is moving out of state next month.
agnes is concerned precisely because they are not going to be around.
Oh, for sure. But, honestly, I don't know how I'd react in this position.
And, while her text was out of line, I'm not sure I can day I disagree with the sentiment.
I don't know what the right course of action would've been here.
But I simply couldn't believe that no posters were condemning the hitting of a two-year-old with a spoon.
I fully agree with everything you're saying and I am stunned at the hitting of a 2 year old w/ a spoon. I also feel that there was starting to be a bit of judgment towards agnes over how she and her DH reacted. Was it the best way? Was it the most effective? no.
But like you - I don't know how I'd react! In the moment, I can absolutely see being caught up in the emotion of it and reacting from a total base/ emotional/ gut level - which is how it sounds her DH reacted. I simply can't fault him for that.
It varies by state but hitting with a spoon or any other implement IS considered abuse in some states. I used to work as a case worker in a child abuse prevention program and we would handle the cases where no "serious damage" was done meaning broken bones, skin, severe bruises, welts, etc. but where the parents could benefit from extra help in the form of home visits, parenting classes or a slew or other services. CPS would refer this type of cases to us so they could handle the more serious cases. People who participated with us did not end up with a CPS record. This type of incident would have qualified for our program both due to the spoon and to the age of the child. I'm writing all of this because calling CPS does not mean you are ruining that family's life and there are many services and referrals people can get that can help them.
So I absolutely do not agree with hitting/spanking as discipline and I think that Agnes absolutely has the right to say that SIL cannot discipline with corporeal punishment in her house. I also think that SIL has a right to be upset about the way that they intervened and the subsequent text. It's a shitty situation over all.
So I absolutely do not agree with hitting/spanking as discipline and I think that Agnes absolutely has the right to say that SIL cannot discipline with corporeal punishment in her house. I also think that SIL has a right to be upset about the way that they intervened and the subsequent text. It's a shitty situation over all.
Right. Is there any way that a person can intervene that isn't going to be taken the wrong way? I don't think flipping out is probably going to help, but I am having trouble believing that a calm "You really shouldn't beat on your tiny kid with a utensil." is going to go over well. It's going to go over like a turd in a pool, you know? Which is why it would be awesome if her SIL was smart enough to not beat on kids with spoons in the first place. Kind of makes it awkward for everyone.
Well agnes didn't clarify which part upset her. The actual spanking or the use of the spoon. It is hard to tell.
Does it matter? Isn't it worse if she was talking about the use of the spoon in particular and people who are anti-spanking are telling she needs to mind her own business and that this is a parenting choice?
I was being mostly TIC with my response there. I think you can be anti-spanking without immediately jumping to abuse/CPS, which she did. Not all spanking is abuse, IMO.
it is definitely the text to me that was the unhelpful part. I only know from experience that if I texted my SIL about a sensitive issue like this it would go over terribly. saying something to prevent the child from being hit was right, which I did say before but wanted to clarify. I am definitely not against agnes here.
just because spanking isn't legally defined as abuse does not mean you aren't doing serious harm. hitting a child, with an object or not is not ok. they can't even defend themselves! this isn't one of those things that gets a pass to me as a "parenting choice." no. co-sleeping is a parenting choice.
I was spanked with a wooden spoon and would have most likely reacted the same way you H did. And I would judge the shit out of any of my siblings or not. Fuck parenting philosophy - it wasn't okay when my Mom did it and it's not now.
And ditto miso, I would have physically blocked anyone trying to get a fucking wooden spoon from my kitchen to get anyone.
There is no universe where I would hit my kid with a spoon but your h "flipping out" on her in the middle of her frustration was the absolute worst way to handle it. Take her aside when she's calm and ask if she needs support or if she's read literature on corporal punishment and that a 2.5 year old isn't even old enough to understand that type of punishment is linked to behavior.
But embarrassing her and undermining her in front of her own kids / telling her her parenting is wrong in a shitty way in front of a house full of people is fucked up.
Post by rupertpenny on Feb 1, 2016 20:51:06 GMT -5
Team miso. I also have a two year old and thinking of punishing her by hitting her with a spoon when she has basically zero self control or conception that actions have consequences makes me want to puke.
Could it have been handled better? Sure. There is always room for improvement. But I think saying something is better than saying nothing.
Post by flamingeaux on Feb 1, 2016 21:20:23 GMT -5
Growing up I was spanked by hand, and whipped with a belt. While I don't condone her choice to use corporal punishment, I think some of us are probably misconstruing her intent . If she is, as you describe her a loving mother, I would wager, she was not planning overhanded beating the kid with a spoon, more likely I would think she was probably going to give a few swats on the behind. It's much easier to keep control of your movements and the force put behind it, than with an open handed spanking. You and your H acted like she was Joan Crawford reincarnated, when she was, to her way of thinking at least, engaging in a measured, controlled, and considered parenting tactic.
edited to be more aligned with my thoughts and intentions
Post by angieawesome on Feb 1, 2016 21:35:32 GMT -5
First of all, I'd like to say that your husband responding in that way probably put your SIL way on the defensive and probably wasn't the best response to her threat. However, I have worked for CPS in my state (thank god I don't anymore) and using an object to hit a child is not considered acceptable and warrants an investigation. Here, hitting with an open hand without leaving a mark is the only acceptable form of corporal punishment. What an uncomfortable situation for you. I'm so sorry and I'd feel very uncomfortable if I were you. I'd let SIL know that you are not comfortable with that type of discipline in your home but what she does in her home is her business. I wouldn't involve CPS unless your states CPS's definition of physical abuse is similar to that of my own. I'm so sorry your involved in this situation. Best of luck.
Post by angieawesome on Feb 1, 2016 21:37:28 GMT -5
I also want to piggyback off of what spearmintleaf, is saying. Hitting in calculated and calm manner is very different than hitting out of anger and really teaches the child nothing other than violence is acceptable if your really angry.
Yeah, I'm with miso and spearmintleaf. I am uncomfortable with spanking and wouldn't like it if someone spanked their child in my home but no way in hell would I stand by and let them use my spoon to do it. Maybe agnes and H could have reacted better but I kind of have a hard time imagining any way that they could have intervened in the heat of the moment without pissing off the SIL. Hitting a child with an object is also illegal where I live and I'm saddened to hear the level of abuse required in some other jurisdictions, before the authorities will intervene.
Post by turnipthebeet on Feb 1, 2016 21:56:25 GMT -5
Question out of left field - what is SIL's husband like? I just wonder how "out of character" this type of behavior might be for him.
You need to not communicate with her for a few days. You need to process what happened and so does she. She is probably feeling some shame, which I think that anyone who hits with a spoon should. But you will not make progress if you don't give her some space.
One thing that is important to remember is that you can't control someone else's actions/behaviors. All you can do is set boundaries and do your part in making things right. To me, that would include apologizing for calling her abusive and H for causing a scene in front of everyone. That doesn't mean that you condone that behavior, and part of setting boundaries is letting her know that you don't want it in your house. Depending on the relationship, she may open up about being at the end of her rope, overwhelmed, etc etc. Or she may continue to defend her actions, in which case I don't know what I would do.
I don't blame you at all for how you reacted. I am so sorry that this all went down. I would be shaken too.
Post by sapphireblue on Feb 1, 2016 22:05:12 GMT -5
Well, I am a hothead and I probably would have handled it much like you and your H did, Agnes. I know myself now and that I am a hothead so I have ways that I make myself get distance from a situation so that I can cool down and think about how I want to react. But in this situation you had to do something right then.
I think because it is your house (and your spoon for that matter!) you have every right to say "Stop, no! This isn't going to happen in our house."
Sure, the overall scene and the text were bad, but you guys were shocked and upset. I hope you can all move past it.
Post by marlenabell on Feb 1, 2016 22:36:14 GMT -5
Not your child, not your choice of discipline.
Also, this is an area where I've learned from POC reading on MMM that there are reasons for it. So maybe lay off the judgements so as not to alienate as the woc may not feel comfortable speaking up.
There is no universe where I would hit my kid with a spoon but your h "flipping out" on her in the middle of her frustration was the absolute worst way to handle it. Take her aside when she's calm and ask if she needs support or if she's read literature on corporal punishment and that a 2.5 year old isn't even old enough to understand that type of punishment is linked to behavior.
But embarrassing her and undermining her in front of her own kids / telling her her parenting is wrong in a shitty way in front of a house full of people is fucked up.
Feeling so out of control angry with your kids and so comfortable hitting them with a spoon is bad enough. Then that you will do it in someone else's house is the worst way to handle the situation imo.
Maybe agnes and her H didn't handle the situation perfectly. Maybe its because they were shocked at their SILs anger and reactions. Parent how you want, but in my house, you regulate yourself and no damn way will I stand by and watch you hit a kid using my spoons. Hold your anger till you get home.