Why does it bear repeating? Because some of us are in the cheap seats and don't get it?
Not everybody reads the 4th of 5 paragraphs in a post.
ETA - and you are the one apparently inferring some sort of insult in my posts. I first asked a question of you and then highlighted something I thought was important and might get lost. I never said I didn't think you got it, nor anything about the cheap seats.
It is just clear you missed the point of this article and are continuing to argue no matter how it is spelled out to you. THAT is why you require patience. There are only so many different ways to try and explain to a person what a triangle looks like before you give up.
I am quite sure I didn't miss the point. I don't need anything spelled out to me, and I don't need anything explained to me. That is my point, and you proved it nicely.
I can't do this all day though.
I will just say that none of this sort of thing does the Clinton campaign any favors.
... All of this being said, however, there are, in fact, issues on which Clinton is a true progressive; I will admit to that. She has a 100% rating from NARAL, for instance. But so does Bernie Sanders. Clinton is great on women’s issues, if you’re not too worried about intersectionality, that is. But my belief is that class and race is far too often left out of the discussion of women’s issues, and to that end, I believe Bernie Sanders is better.
I have more for the rebuttal but to this bolded statement I say, what, huh? Bernie understands intersectionality better than HRC? Bernie has ever talked to that or brought up one law or discussion of it that wasn't in defense? Prove it.
Yeah, that statement made my eyebrows fly right up over my head. I'll give you that HRC is mediocre at best on intersectionality. But I'd place the odds of Bernie even knowing what it means at about .00001 percent.
It is just clear you missed the point of this article and are continuing to argue no matter how it is spelled out to you. THAT is why you require patience. There are only so many different ways to try and explain to a person what a triangle looks like before you give up.
I am quite sure I didn't miss the point. I don't need anything spelled out to me, and I don't need anything explained to me. That is my point, and you proved it nicely.
I can't do this all day though.
I will just say that none of this sort of thing does the Clinton campaign any favors.
Okay. Your posts have proven otherwise, but, good luck to you.
I'm not a fan of Hilary because I can't get behind how condescending she is to people when they question her. She will put on the song and dance of waving and smiling to the crowds but comes off as more of an act.
I don't like her smart-ass responses to things going on with her. Ask her about wiping her server clean, I don't want to hear her crack back with, "Like with a cloth or something?"
I believe she was trying to make light of something, but I don't find it to be very funny.
I'm not a fan of Hilary because I can't get behind how condescending she is to people when they question her. She will put on the song and dance of waving and smiling to the crowds but comes off as more of an act.
I don't like her smart-ass responses to things going on with her. Ask her about wiping her server clean, I don't want to hear her crack back with, "Like with a cloth or something?"
I believe she was trying to make light of something, but I don't find it to be very funny.
Did you read the Progressives thread about "always smiling at a job interview"? It was related to your first comment.
I'm not a fan of Hilary because I can't get behind how condescending she is to people when they question her. She will put on the song and dance of waving and smiling to the crowds but comes off as more of an act.
I don't like her smart-ass responses to things going on with her. Ask her about wiping her server clean, I don't want to hear her crack back with, "Like with a cloth or something?"
I believe she was trying to make light of something, but I don't find it to be very funny.
So do you like Bernie when Larry Wilmore asks him about racism and BLM and he responds with saying that if that if the minimum wage increases these issues would start to be remedied? That is condescending that minimum wage increase = black lives better by just assuming racism is related to low income.
He has also at times talked about reforming the justice system and war on drugs, but missed these at least twice in debates and on the Nighthly show and just talked min wage. If you're going to assume that HRC smiling in response to questions is not credible, then you have to acknowledge that Bernie is also a career politician with talking points that he swings to when he can't answer directly also, and that is equally not credible.
I also want to point out how every single day I read a post shaming me for supporting Hillary. I am called a bitch, a cunt, ignorant, a troll, told I'm voting with my vagina (which would be a neat party trick), and every number of condescending things. And it too makes me angry and makes me want to not vote for Bernie. Every politician has supporters that are assholes. Every single one. I think every person this election season feels alienated.
This article did not call anyone a name. It did not say anyone was not a feminist based on who they vote for. It did not call anyone stupid. It simply gave a history lesson. If you find history patronizing, well, I can't help you. I am sorry you have felt angry. I get it. But assuming any pro-Hillary article is calling you anti-feminist isn't helping you not feel angry.
I have more for the rebuttal but to this bolded statement I say, what, huh? Bernie understands intersectionality better than HRC? Bernie has ever talked to that or brought up one law or discussion of it that wasn't in defense? Prove it.
Yeah, that statement made my eyebrows fly right up over my head. I'll give you that HRC is mediocre at best on intersectionality. But I'd place the odds of Bernie even knowing what it means at about .00001 percent.
I am dying at Berner being better on intersectionality. Can someone submit that issue as a debate question?
I also want to point out how every single day I read a post shaming me for supporting Hillary. I am called a bitch, a cunt, ignorant, a troll, told I'm voting with my vagina (which would be a neat party trick), and every number of condescending things. And it too makes me angry and makes me want to not vote for Bernie. Every politician has supporters that are assholes. Every single one. I think every person this election season feels alienated.
This article did not call anyone a name. It did not say anyone was not a feminist based on who they vote for. It did not call anyone stupid. It simply gave a history lesson. If you find history patronizing, well, I can't help you. I am sorry you have felt angry. I get it. But assuming any pro-Hillary article is calling you anti-feminist isn't helping you not feel angry.
derp -the article is directed at the young women who "don't need feminism." This is a REAL MOVEMENT.
Where in the article does it say that this is the intended audience? And I KNOW that it is a REAL MOVEMENT.
I also think it's unsettling that you think I require patience for not falling in line.
I assume the patience reference is because I am clearly insane for continuing to engage you.
You only ever come in here when someone posts something that offends you. You never share articles that are interesting, informative, inspiring, thought-provoking. You never chime in to any threads other than to offer your insights about things like Hillary supporters being condescending or how maternity leave ruined your life. You're like Oscar the Grouch but without the cute, fuzzy exterior.
I also want to point out how every single day I read a post shaming me for supporting Hillary. I am called a bitch, a cunt, ignorant, a troll, told I'm voting with my vagina (which would be a neat party trick), and every number of condescending things. And it too makes me angry and makes me want to not vote for Bernie. Every politician has supporters that are assholes. Every single one. I think every person this election season feels alienated.
This article did not call anyone a name. It did not say anyone was not a feminist based on who they vote for. It did not call anyone stupid. It simply gave a history lesson. If you find history patronizing, well, I can't help you. I am sorry you have felt angry. I get it. But assuming any pro-Hillary article is calling you anti-feminist isn't helping you not feel angry.
I also want to point out how every single day I read a post shaming me for supporting Hillary. I am called a bitch, a cunt, ignorant, a troll, told I'm voting with my vagina (which would be a neat party trick), and every number of condescending things. And it too makes me angry and makes me want to not vote for Bernie. Every politician has supporters that are assholes. Every single one. I think every person this election season feels alienated.
This article did not call anyone a name. It did not say anyone was not a feminist based on who they vote for. It did not call anyone stupid. It simply gave a history lesson. If you find history patronizing, well, I can't help you. I am sorry you have felt angry. I get it. But assuming any pro-Hillary article is calling you anti-feminist isn't helping you not feel angry.
Thank you for expressing what I wanted to say but couldn't figure out how to do without sarcasm. Because THIS, SO MUCH THIS!
I also want to point out how every single day I read a post shaming me for supporting Hillary. I am called a bitch, a cunt, ignorant, a troll, told I'm voting with my vagina (which would be a neat party trick), and every number of condescending things. And it too makes me angry and makes me want to not vote for Bernie. Every politician has supporters that are assholes. Every single one. I think every person this election season feels alienated.
This article did not call anyone a name. It did not say anyone was not a feminist based on who they vote for. It did not call anyone stupid. It simply gave a history lesson. If you find history patronizing, well, I can't help you. I am sorry you have felt angry. I get it. But assuming any pro-Hillary article is calling you anti-feminist isn't helping you not feel angry.
I don't really disagree with any of you on this. It's terrible you've been called awful things for supporting Hillary. I would never condone that. So I see why you get it. I'll also reiterate that I never said this particular article said Bernie voters aren't feminists. I also didn't say that every pro-Hillary article is saying that, either. I've pretty much stayed quiet and gone about my business for most of the campaign, so I don't exactly fall into the category of "Berner". It's only recently that the articles/comments (i.e. Steinem/Albright) seem to have reached a fever pitch to the point where I'm feeling angry, to the point where I'm reconsidering my vote in the general.
I will say that I get why a Hillary supporter would likewise feel disinclined to vote for Bernie if he was hypothetically the nominee. I check out Reddit occasionally and I'm on a Bernie Facebook group, but not until more recently and what I've seen is people trying to moderate the tone and be respectful. I wasn't around earlier in the campaign to see the really offensive stuff. But the point I'm getting to is - I believe that it happened and I get why it would be a YOOJ turnoff to a Hillary supporter, and I would not argue nor belabor this point. To each their own. Live and let live. Vote your candidate.
But I'm not cool with being told to shut up or that I'm going to hell.
You shouldn't be cool with any of the crap thrown your way, either.
Where in the article does it say that this is the intended audience? And I KNOW that it is a REAL MOVEMENT.
I also think it's unsettling that you think I require patience for not falling in line.
I assume the patience reference is because I am clearly insane for continuing to engage you.
You only ever come in here when someone posts something that offends you. You never share articles that are interesting, informative, inspiring, thought-provoking. You never chime in to any threads other than to offer your insights about things like Hillary supporters being condescending or how maternity leave ruined your life. You're like Oscar the Grouch but without the cute, fuzzy exterior.
Ok, last one. From my perspective, I've engaged with you because you are especially respectful, and don't write me off immediately. It's a bummer you think that's insane.
I don't start new threads on here because I don't have the nerve. I've considered it on several occasions but have backed away. I've posted what I guess are "fuzzier" things on ML, I think. But CEP topics tend to be the ones that rile me up. I'd have to check my post history to be sure. I don't think I've been disagreeable 100% of the time. But yes I tend to post on this board when I'm agitated.
If someone said, "I think Bernie's got a good message and some good ideas, and I'm going to vote for him because I'd like to send a message to the DNC that they need to move to the left on certain issues and grow a spine when it comes to campaign finance and Wall Street reform' then I'd get that. I'd completely respect that.
But I am seriously losing patience with the notion that Sanders has better policies and a more consistent message. It's very hard for me to see that outlook as anything other than one that is derivative of sexism.
First, Sanders does not have better policies. And I am just going to say it: this is a statement of fact, not opinion. Look at their websites. Go read what they each propose to do for Wall Street. Then come back here and tell me that you believe that Sanders policies are not only more comprehensive and thoughtful, but demonstrate that he has taken this issue up with the seriousness and dedication needed to actually accomplish a portion of his vision. I'll be curious to see if anyone engages in this exercise and comes back and declares Bernie the victor.
Likewise, I agree that the concept of universal health care is a good one and I'm open to considering it. But wanting UHC is theory is a lot different than wanting the UHC plan that is proposed. Because Bernie's UHC plan offers so few specifics, it is only "better" if you believe that the absolute worst UHC plan you could possibly imagine is better than the best private system you can possibly imagine. In other words, UHC is only better in all instances if you suffer from a total failure of the imagination. Right now, there are way too many unanswered questions about his UHC plan that has made it impossible for any competent, rational person to compare what he proposes to both the existing ACA and Hillary's proposed plans. So he fails there too.
I can play this game for damn near every section of his website.
This is why it's so frustrating. It's really hard for me to untangle my belief that there's some sexism driving that. I have yet to hear anyone - not Bernie, not his surrogates, not anyone on this board, not an editorial - actually articulate using words why his policies are superior. Rather, they seem to treat "better policies," as interchangeable with "holding a philosophy more in line with their own." But seriously people, you are voting for a president, not a graduation speaker.
If I saw serious policies and serious defense of those, I'd feel differently. Until then, I see serious thought versus fluff.
Second, fuck this consistency shit. Sanders is going to learn right quick that the USofA, is not Vermont. Nor is it Iowa or East Vermont New Hampshire. He's going to see what it's like when you have to campaign and address crowds that are religiously, ethnically, racially, educationally, and economically diverse. And once he gets away from the comfort of homogeny, let's see how easy it is for him to stay so consistent while also building the kind of coalition it takes to win and govern. Sanders has been coasting along, enjoying being a white man in a liberal white state. He has no fucking clue what it's like to be a woman fresh out of law school in the 60s, to be a trailing spouse, to be in the national spotlight subject to criticisms about his clothes, his sexual prowess and preferences, and his voice. He has no fucking clue how to govern and represent a diverse constituency. He is this guy:
So yeah, of course he's been consistent. But you seriously cannot hold her to the same god damn standard. So again, it's hard for me to untangle that from sexism.
And with that, I'm out of here in about 15 minutes for a while. Bernie supporters should flame me now or wait several hours.
I assume the patience reference is because I am clearly insane for continuing to engage you.
You only ever come in here when someone posts something that offends you. You never share articles that are interesting, informative, inspiring, thought-provoking. You never chime in to any threads other than to offer your insights about things like Hillary supporters being condescending or how maternity leave ruined your life. You're like Oscar the Grouch but without the cute, fuzzy exterior.
Ok, last one. From my perspective, I've engaged with you because you are especially respectful, and don't write me off immediately. It's a bummer you think that's insane.
I don't start new threads on here because I don't have the nerve. I've considered it on several occasions but have backed away. I've posted what I guess are "fuzzier" things on ML, I think. But CEP topics tend to be the ones that rile me up. I'd have to check my post history to be sure. I don't think I've been disagreeable 100% of the time. But yes I tend to post on this board when I'm agitated.
You have the nerve to come in guns a blazing "this is condescending" but you don't have the nerve to post a New York Times article with two sentences of positive commentary about why you found it interesting? Give me a break.
I have literally never seen you post something positive in this board. So yes, engaging with you is exhausting. I don't know why I keep doing it, except that I've been high on cold meds for three days straight.
If someone said, "I think Bernie's got a good message and some good ideas, and I'm going to vote for him because I'd like to send a message to the DNC that they need to move to the left on certain issues and grow a spine when it comes to campaign finance and Wall Street reform' then I'd get that. I'd completely respect that.
But I am seriously losing patience with the notion that Sanders has better policies and a more consistent message. It's very hard for me to see that outlook as anything other than one that is derivative of sexism.
First, Sanders does not have better policies. And I am just going to say it: this is a statement of fact, not opinion. Look at their websites. Go read what they each propose to do for Wall Street. Then come back here and tell me that you believe that Sanders policies are not only more comprehensive and thoughtful, but demonstrate that he has taken this issue up with the seriousness and dedication needed to actually accomplish a portion of his vision. I'll be curious to see if anyone engages in this exercise and comes back and declares Bernie the victor.
Likewise, I agree that the concept of universal health care is a good one and I'm open to considering it. But wanting UHC is theory is a lot different than wanting the UHC plan that is proposed. Because Bernie's UHC plan offers so few specifics, it is only "better" if you believe that the absolute worst UHC plan you could possibly imagine is better than the best private system you can possibly imagine. In other words, UHC is only better in all instances if you suffer from a total failure of the imagination. Right now, there are way too many unanswered questions about his UHC plan that has made it impossible for any competent, rational person to compare what he proposes to both the existing ACA and Hillary's proposed plans. So he fails there too.
I can play this game for damn near every section of his website.
This is why it's so frustrating. It's really hard for me to untangle my belief that there's some sexism driving that. I have yet to hear anyone - not Bernie, not his surrogates, not anyone on this board, not an editorial - actually articulate using words why his policies are superior. Rather, they seem to treat "better policies," as interchangeable with "holding a philosophy more in line with their own." But seriously people, you are voting for a president, not a graduation speaker.
If I saw serious policies and serious defense of those, I'd feel differently. Until then, I see serious thought versus fluff.
Second, fuck this consistency shit. Sanders is going to learn right quick that the USofA, is not Vermont. Nor is it Iowa or East Vermont New Hampshire. He's going to see what it's like when you have to campaign and address crowds that are religiously, ethnically, racially, educationally, and economically diverse. And once he gets away from the comfort of homogeny, let's see how easy it is for him to stay so consistent while also building the kind of coalition it takes to win and govern. Sanders has been coasting along, enjoying being a white man in a liberal white state. He has no fucking clue what it's like to be a woman fresh out of law school in the 60s, to be a trailing spouse, to be in the national spotlight subject to criticisms about his clothes, his sexual prowess and preferences, and his voice. He has no fucking clue how to govern and represent a diverse constituency. He is this guy:
So yeah, of course he's been consistent. But you seriously cannot hold her to the same god damn standard. So again, it's hard for me to untangle that from sexism.
And with that, I'm out of here in about 15 minutes for a while. Bernie supporters should flame me now or wait several hours.
What's really ironic is how patronizing this article is.
The more condescending stuff like this I read - that I'm not a feminist if I don't vote for Hillary, that I don't get it if I vote for Bernie, the more alienated and angry I feel. There are a lot of female Bernie supporters that are getting really upset by these shaming and dismissive tactics.
Not being sarcastic, I'd really like hear why you are voting for Bernie.
If someone said, "I think Bernie's got a good message and some good ideas, and I'm going to vote for him because I'd like to send a message to the DNC that they need to move to the left on certain issues and grow a spine when it comes to campaign finance and Wall Street reform' then I'd get that. I'd completely respect that.
But I am seriously losing patience with the notion that Sanders has better policies and a more consistent message. It's very hard for me to see that outlook as anything other than one that is derivative of sexism.
First, Sanders does not have better policies. And I am just going to say it: this is a statement of fact, not opinion. Look at their websites. Go read what they each propose to do for Wall Street. Then come back here and tell me that you believe that Sanders policies are not only more comprehensive and thoughtful, but demonstrate that he has taken this issue up with the seriousness and dedication needed to actually accomplish a portion of his vision. I'll be curious to see if anyone engages in this exercise and comes back and declares Bernie the victor.
Likewise, I agree that the concept of universal health care is a good one and I'm open to considering it. But wanting UHC is theory is a lot different than wanting the UHC plan that is proposed. Because Bernie's UHC plan offers so few specifics, it is only "better" if you believe that the absolute worst UHC plan you could possibly imagine is better than the best private system you can possibly imagine. In other words, UHC is only better in all instances if you suffer from a total failure of the imagination. Right now, there are way too many unanswered questions about his UHC plan that has made it impossible for any competent, rational person to compare what he proposes to both the existing ACA and Hillary's proposed plans. So he fails there too.
I can play this game for damn near every section of his website.
This is why it's so frustrating. It's really hard for me to untangle my belief that there's some sexism driving that. I have yet to hear anyone - not Bernie, not his surrogates, not anyone on this board, not an editorial - actually articulate using words why his policies are superior. Rather, they seem to treat "better policies," as interchangeable with "holding a philosophy more in line with their own." But seriously people, you are voting for a president, not a graduation speaker.
If I saw serious policies and serious defense of those, I'd feel differently. Until then, I see serious thought versus fluff.
Second, fuck this consistency shit. Sanders is going to learn right quick that the USofA, is not Vermont. Nor is it Iowa or East Vermont New Hampshire. He's going to see what it's like when you have to campaign and address crowds that are religiously, ethnically, racially, educationally, and economically diverse. And once he gets away from the comfort of homogeny, let's see how easy it is for him to stay so consistent while also building the kind of coalition it takes to win and govern. Sanders has been coasting along, enjoying being a white man in a liberal white state. He has no fucking clue what it's like to be a woman fresh out of law school in the 60s, to be a trailing spouse, to be in the national spotlight subject to criticisms about his clothes, his sexual prowess and preferences, and his voice. He has no fucking clue how to govern and represent a diverse constituency. He is this guy:
So yeah, of course he's been consistent. But you seriously cannot hold her to the same god damn standard. So again, it's hard for me to untangle that from sexism.
And with that, I'm out of here in about 15 minutes for a while. Bernie supporters should flame me now or wait several hours.
What's really ironic is how patronizing this article is.
The more condescending stuff like this I read - that I'm not a feminist if I don't vote for Hillary, that I don't get it if I vote for Bernie, the more alienated and angry I feel. There are a lot of female Bernie supporters that are getting really upset by these shaming and dismissive tactics.
Not being sarcastic, I'd really like hear why you are voting for Bernie.
This is interesting because at this moment only I and Lys, of all people, like this response.
But I am dying for the answer. Because it's usually when Berners go silent.