The Fetishization of Not Knowing

[One Girl In All The World]

I nodded my head through all of this article, but this bit has been my takeaway every time they debate together:

"Now, Bernie Sanders is not the first candidate to not be an expert on even something as significant as foreign affairs. But what's deeply troublesome here is how he seems to have no respect for knowledge on it. It's visible in the almost-disdain he expresses for Hillary Clinton's experience on the matter. She had been Secretary of State for four years, but he has been in Congress for more than two decades. Exactly when does he think he'll have sufficient experience to speak fluently on foreign policy?

Even more disconcerting has been his apparent unwillingness to find advisers to help bridge the gap. It was only 15 years ago that Democrats mocked George Bush Jr.'s disinterest in foreign policy; he at least had the courtesy to be embarrassed by what he didn't know, and hired a staff, including professors of international relations and former Secretaries of Defense, to help. They proved to provide much terrible advice, but there was at least an effort to appear informed. Sanders hasn't done so."

[iamlaila]

For me what is really terrifying is that Congress is going to remain in control of the Republicans, so if we elect a Republican President, then they will have a large group of allies on the Hill. Alternatively, if we elect a Democrat, they will have to work with a Republican-controlled Congress to get things done (so there will likely be gridlock). Because of this, foreign policy and relationships with other nations will be of most importance to a Democratic President because that is where he/she will actually be able to make some headway without needing the full support of Congress. Bernie's domestic policy ideas are a fantasy--Obama couldn't even get a public option in the ACA with Dems controlling the House and Senate and we really believe that Bernie can get single-payer passed with both chambers controlled by the Republicans? Give me a break. Foreign policy is key, and it is a particularly weak area for both Sanders and Trump.

[ESF]

This piece is my everything.

[CheeringCharm]

He's really putting all of his eggs into one basket: this idea that if he is elected, he will turn American healthcare into a single payer system and enact free college. We're not electing a king though. Just because he wants these things doesn't mean they will happen automatically if he is elected. The president has much more leeway with foreign policy but that seems to be the one area he is totally uninterested in. It's very concerning even if you do support his socialist policy goals.

[eclaires]

This is part of why I see a lot of similarities between trump and sanders.

[eclaires]

Feb 10, 2016 9:41:02 GMT -5 CheeringCharm said:

He's really putting all of his eggs into one basket: this idea that if he is elected, he will turn American healthcare into a single payer system and enact free college. We're not electing a king though. Just because he wants these things doesn't mean they will happen automatically if he is elected. The president has much more leeway with foreign policy but that seems to be the one area he is totally uninterested in. It's very concerning even if you do support his socialist policy goals.

This is the thing that kills me. People seem to really buy his idea of a political revolution, and quite frankly, it is ignorant and asinine. Our government doesn't work that way. Our government is set up to actually keep that from happening. It's slowly driving me insane that he has so much support for this.

[ttt]

See also the thread I posted below about Bernie's foreign policy.

From that article: 



The reference to "Muslim" troops isn't a way to identify actual real-world allies who will advance US policy goals. Rather, it's a way to promise voters that they can have it all — that they can have their Sanders revolution and be part of a country that embodies their values in the world, while still having some sort of solution for a problem that is bad enough to need one.

There is of course a serious debate to be had about whether US involvement in the Middle East really makes America safer, and about weighing the pros and cons of the US drawing down from the region. But Sanders isn't having that debate.

Instead, he is telling voters that they can embrace an antiwar worldview without having to worry about costs at all, because when they elect a sufficiently dovish and anti-establishment president, that president will help the Middle East's Muslims solve this problem for themselves.

[tacosforlife]

Feb 10, 2016 9:54:31 GMT -5 eclaires said:

Feb 10, 2016 9:41:02 GMT -5 CheeringCharm said:

He's really putting all of his eggs into one basket: this idea that if he is elected, he will turn American healthcare into a single payer system and enact free college. We're not electing a king though. Just because he wants these things doesn't mean they will happen automatically if he is elected. The president has much more leeway with foreign policy but that seems to be the one area he is totally uninterested in. It's very concerning even if you do support his socialist policy goals.

This is the thing that kills me. People seem to really buy his idea of a political revolution, and quite frankly, it is ignorant and asinine. Our government doesn't work that way. Our government is set up to actually keep that from happening. It's slowly driving me insane that he has so much support for this.

I want to yell at all Berners everywhere: MY STATE ELECTED SCOTT WALKER THREE TIMES! YOUR POLITICAL REVOLUTION IS NOT HAPPENING!

[eclaires]

Feb 10, 2016 10:12:09 GMT -5 tacosforlife said:

Feb 10, 2016 9:54:31 GMT -5 eclaires said:

This is the thing that kills me. People seem to really buy his idea of a political revolution, and quite frankly, it is ignorant and asinine. Our government doesn't work that way. Our government is set up to actually keep that from happening. It's slowly driving me insane that he has so much support for this.

I want to yell at all Berners everywhere: MY STATE ELECTED SCOTT WALKER THREE TIMES! YOUR POLITICAL REVOLUTION IS NOT HAPPENING!

OMG, yes.  This political revolution will be limited to states like NH and Vermont.  Good luck with that!

[pixy0stix]

I posted this to one Berner I know. She posted this in response: money.cnn.com/2016/02/08/news/economy/sanders-income-jobs/index.html

I asked her how that is different than trickle down economics, she says that it's not. I showed her the DIRECT QUOTE from the article that is exactly what trickle down economics is, and she's saying it's not. ::face palm::

[gardengal]

Feb 10, 2016 10:12:09 GMT -5 tacosforlife said:

Feb 10, 2016 9:54:31 GMT -5 eclaires said:

This is the thing that kills me. People seem to really buy his idea of a political revolution, and quite frankly, it is ignorant and asinine. Our government doesn't work that way. Our government is set up to actually keep that from happening. It's slowly driving me insane that he has so much support for this.

I want to yell at all Berners everywhere: MY STATE ELECTED SCOTT WALKER THREE TIMES! YOUR POLITICAL REVOLUTION IS NOT HAPPENING!

Yes. And the poorest states are in the South. And red. And care more about what is going on in people's bedrooms & utes than their own self-interest. 

This is revolution ain't gonna happen 

[jeaniebueller]

Feb 10, 2016 9:54:31 GMT -5 eclaires said:

Feb 10, 2016 9:41:02 GMT -5 CheeringCharm said:

He's really putting all of his eggs into one basket: this idea that if he is elected, he will turn American healthcare into a single payer system and enact free college. We're not electing a king though. Just because he wants these things doesn't mean they will happen automatically if he is elected. The president has much more leeway with foreign policy but that seems to be the one area he is totally uninterested in. It's very concerning even if you do support his socialist policy goals.

This is the thing that kills me. People seem to really buy his idea of a political revolution, and quite frankly, it is ignorant and asinine. Our government doesn't work that way. Our government is set up to actually keep that from happening. It's slowly driving me insane that he has so much support for this.

someone on this board pointed out that to have a real political revolution, it usually involves violence, bloodshed and war. Which is clearly not what the Berners are suggesting. Their idea of a "revolution" being getting people out to vote for Bernie seems like slacktivism or sheltered ignorance about the realities of a revolution at best.

[FloFTW]

Feb 10, 2016 10:12:09 GMT -5 tacosforlife said:

Feb 10, 2016 9:54:31 GMT -5 eclaires said:

This is the thing that kills me. People seem to really buy his idea of a political revolution, and quite frankly, it is ignorant and asinine. Our government doesn't work that way. Our government is set up to actually keep that from happening. It's slowly driving me insane that he has so much support for this.

I want to yell at all Berners everywhere: MY STATE ELECTED SCOTT WALKER THREE TIMES! YOUR POLITICAL REVOLUTION IS NOT HAPPENING!

And the person that I've seen as his closest historical reference as a presidential candidate - Dennis Kucinich - got gerrymandered out of his own district and was thought of a LAUGHING STOCK whenever he ran.

If the other crazy socialist revolution guy can't even get elected in his super sympathetic district any more...how in the world is a socialist president going to get actual support?

[ttt]

Feb 10, 2016 10:34:54 GMT -5 jeaniebueller said:

Feb 10, 2016 9:54:31 GMT -5 eclaires said:

This is the thing that kills me. People seem to really buy his idea of a political revolution, and quite frankly, it is ignorant and asinine. Our government doesn't work that way. Our government is set up to actually keep that from happening. It's slowly driving me insane that he has so much support for this.

someone on this board pointed out that to have a real political revolution, it usually involves violence, bloodshed and war. Which is clearly not what the Berners are suggesting. Their idea of a "revolution" being getting people out to vote for Bernie seems like slacktivism or sheltered ignorance about the realities of a revolution at best.

The thing that these people fail to realize is that like it or not, a very large percentage of Americans are conservative. They don't want free college. They don't want healthcare for all. They don't want a revolution, at least not in the way they're thinking of it. 

It's the same thing with gun control. As much as I'd love to believe that the will of the American people is that we enact stricter gun control laws, enact universal background checks, crack down on straw purchases, enact purchase limits, etc. the truth is that my opinion is not a majority opinion. The majority of Americans are willing to accept tens of thousands of guns deaths as the price to pay for everyone being able to have tons of guns, whenever and however they want. THAT is the issue here. As much as I'd like to believe it's the system, the truth is that the system is actually working pretty much how it's intended, reflecting the will of the American people. 

[MrsAxilla]

Feb 10, 2016 10:47:49 GMT -5 ttt said:

Feb 10, 2016 10:34:54 GMT -5 jeaniebueller said:

someone on this board pointed out that to have a real political revolution, it usually involves violence, bloodshed and war. Which is clearly not what the Berners are suggesting. Their idea of a "revolution" being getting people out to vote for Bernie seems like slacktivism or sheltered ignorance about the realities of a revolution at best.

The thing that these people fail to realize is that like it or not, a very large percentage of Americans are conservative. They don't want free college. They don't want healthcare for all. They don't want a revolution, at least not in the way they're thinking of it. 

It's the same thing with gun control. As much as I'd love to believe that the will of the American people is that we enact stricter gun control laws, enact universal background checks, crack down on straw purchases, enact purchase limits, etc. the truth is that my opinion is not a majority opinion. The majority of Americans are willing to accept tens of thousands of guns deaths as the price to pay for everyone being able to have tons of guns, whenever and however they want. THAT is the issue here. As much as I'd like to believe it's the system, the truth is that the system is actually working pretty much how it's intended, reflecting the will of the American people. 

Well, I disagree with your last paragraph.  Tons of polls have shown the vast majority support gun control in some form, and yet DESPITE THAT, it hasn't happened, won't happen, will never happen.  Some thing with abortion: the majority support leaving Roe v Wade alone.  The American public has an abysmal record turning its will into policy.

[ttt]

Feb 10, 2016 11:27:50 GMT -5 MrsAxilla said:

Feb 10, 2016 10:47:49 GMT -5 ttt said:

The thing that these people fail to realize is that like it or not, a very large percentage of Americans are conservative. They don't want free college. They don't want healthcare for all. They don't want a revolution, at least not in the way they're thinking of it. 

It's the same thing with gun control. As much as I'd love to believe that the will of the American people is that we enact stricter gun control laws, enact universal background checks, crack down on straw purchases, enact purchase limits, etc. the truth is that my opinion is not a majority opinion. The majority of Americans are willing to accept tens of thousands of guns deaths as the price to pay for everyone being able to have tons of guns, whenever and however they want. THAT is the issue here. As much as I'd like to believe it's the system, the truth is that the system is actually working pretty much how it's intended, reflecting the will of the American people. 

Well, I disagree with your last paragraph.  Tons of polls have shown the vast majority support gun control in some form, and yet DESPITE THAT, it hasn't happened, won't happen, will never happen.  Some thing with abortion: the majority support leaving Roe v Wade alone.  The American public has an abysmal record turning its will into policy.

They support it, but they refuse to vote for officials who want to enact it. So, they don't really want it. Or they're okay with it, but they don't really care to push for it. 

[tacosforlife]

Feb 10, 2016 11:29:04 GMT -5 ttt said:

Feb 10, 2016 11:27:50 GMT -5 MrsAxilla said:

Well, I disagree with your last paragraph.  Tons of polls have shown the vast majority support gun control in some form, and yet DESPITE THAT, it hasn't happened, won't happen, will never happen.  Some thing with abortion: the majority support leaving Roe v Wade alone.  The American public has an abysmal record turning its will into policy.

They support it, but they refuse to vote for officials who want to enact it. So, they don't really want it. Or they're okay with it, but they don't really care to push for it. 

I agree with you to an extent, but gerrymandering is a real problem. I think H has convinced me that we need a constitutional convention to switch to a proportional representation system. Oh, the joys of living with a political scientist.

[tacosforlife]

Feb 10, 2016 11:48:02 GMT -5 @littlemoxie said:

Feb 10, 2016 11:38:41 GMT -5 tacosforlife said:

I agree with you to an extent, but gerrymandering is a real problem. I think H has convinced me that we need a constitutional convention to switch to a proportional representation system. Oh, the joys of living with a political scientist.

Yeah, but who is going to make that happen?  That seems about as likely as free college for all and "taxing Wall Street speculation!"

Ah, but unlike Bernie Sanders, neither of us is selling anyone the snake oil of a promise that this will happen!

[heyjude]

I keep thinking about Schwarzenegger. He campaigned much as Bernie and Trump are. A populist revolution. His favorite phrase and campaign pledge was that he was going to "blow up the boxes" of state government. Reform it all. Top down. Remake state government in the image he saw best. Did this happen? Lol. No. That's not how it works in a democratic government, state or federal.

So good luck boys. With your revolution. I'll be over here crying in my beer.

[iamlaila]

It must be frustrating for Obama to see both Bernie and the Republicans trash talking his (hard fought) accomplishments.

[heyjude]

I don't know where to put this but Ta-Nehisi Coates just announced he is voting for Bernie.

[epphd]

Feb 10, 2016 9:53:12 GMT -5 eclaires said:

This is part of why I see a lot of similarities between trump and sanders.

This was my takeaway too. If Bernie were a republican, his supporters would be lightning quick to tear into these shortcomings. And frankly the lack of endorsements speaks VOLUMES to me, establishment or not.

[epphd]

Feb 10, 2016 10:16:46 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

I posted this to one Berner I know. She posted this in response: money.cnn.com/2016/02/08/news/economy/sanders-income-jobs/index.html

I asked her how that is different than trickle down economics, she says that it's not. I showed her the DIRECT QUOTE from the article that is exactly what trickle down economics is, and she's saying it's not. ::face palm::

I like this line especially:

Sanders' policy director, Warren Gunnels, also defended the estimates, noting the candidate is thinking big.

Oh, well if he's thinking big then MATH WORKS DIFFERENTLY.

[tacosforlife]

Feb 10, 2016 12:30:59 GMT -5 heyjude said:

I don't know where to put this but Ta-Nehisi Coates just announced he is voting for Bernie.

Interesting.

[jeaniebueller]

Feb 10, 2016 12:46:22 GMT -5 epphd said:

Feb 10, 2016 9:53:12 GMT -5 eclaires said:

This is part of why I see a lot of similarities between trump and sanders.

This was my takeaway too. If Bernie were a republican, his supporters would be lightning quick to tear into these shortcomings. And frankly the lack of endorsements speaks VOLUMES to me, establishment or not.

Are they really though? Who has endorsed Trump other than radical people like Sheriff Joe? Trumps supporters don't really care about his shortcomings. Noone has batted an eye about his asinine "bomb the hell out of them" comments

[ESF]

Feb 10, 2016 11:29:04 GMT -5 ttt said:

Feb 10, 2016 11:27:50 GMT -5 MrsAxilla said:

Well, I disagree with your last paragraph.  Tons of polls have shown the vast majority support gun control in some form, and yet DESPITE THAT, it hasn't happened, won't happen, will never happen.  Some thing with abortion: the majority support leaving Roe v Wade alone.  The American public has an abysmal record turning its will into policy.

They support it, but they refuse to vote for officials who want to enact it. So, they don't really want it. Or they're okay with it, but they don't really care to push for it. 

This makes your earlier point perfectly though. They don't vote for politicians who want more gun control because they don't like the ACA and other democratic programs. That's how much they hate  many liberal policies. That's where this country is. I do believe the country as a whole is center-left, but the left line is hard whereas the right line is soft. 

[2curlydogs]

Feb 10, 2016 12:54:57 GMT -5 tacosforlife said:

Feb 10, 2016 12:30:59 GMT -5 heyjude said:

I don't know where to put this but Ta-Nehisi Coates just announced he is voting for Bernie.

Interesting.

That wasn't quite the word I was looking for....

[iamlaila]

Feb 10, 2016 13:26:06 GMT -5 Dig Ophelia said:

Feb 10, 2016 12:11:14 GMT -5 iamlaila said:

It must be frustrating for Obama to see both Bernie and the Republicans trash talking his (hard fought) accomplishments.

The Republicans trashing Obama is their M.O. and I'm sure he doesn't expect anything less.

But Bernie -- that's gotta be a pisser.  Especially since Bernie is actively trying and succeeding in usurping the Democratic Party for his own Democratic-bashing agenda.  Not that Bernie needs to be all up Obama's ass.  But it's hard to understand how a Democratic presidential candidate can be so fond of bashing the outgoing Democratic president.

Yes, good point!  All it will take is a Republican to get elected to the Presidency (and Repub.-controlled Congress) to undo everything and to stack the Supreme Court with conservatives.

[epphd]

Feb 10, 2016 12:56:09 GMT -5 jeaniebueller said:

Feb 10, 2016 12:46:22 GMT -5 epphd said:

This was my takeaway too. If Bernie were a republican, his supporters would be lightning quick to tear into these shortcomings. And frankly the lack of endorsements speaks VOLUMES to me, establishment or not.

Are they really though? Who has endorsed Trump other than radical people like Sheriff Joe? Trumps supporters don't really care about his shortcomings. Noone has batted an eye about his asinine "bomb the hell out of them" comments

What I mean is that both (trump and sanders) represent the fetishization of ignorance and both and both lack an apparent political machine (i.e. congressional support) to help them accomplish their vision if elected. Both are the least likely to succeed if elected, yet both enjoy huge popular support. In both cases this is despite (or because of) the fact that all they have going for them are marketable talking points and, evidently, a base of support skilled in the art of willful suspension of disbelief.

[downtoearth]

Feb 10, 2016 10:34:54 GMT -5 jeaniebueller said:

Feb 10, 2016 9:54:31 GMT -5 eclaires said:

This is the thing that kills me. People seem to really buy his idea of a political revolution, and quite frankly, it is ignorant and asinine. Our government doesn't work that way. Our government is set up to actually keep that from happening. It's slowly driving me insane that he has so much support for this.

someone on this board pointed out that to have a real political revolution, it usually involves violence, bloodshed and war. Which is clearly not what the Berners are suggesting. Their idea of a "revolution" being getting people out to vote for Bernie seems like slacktivism or sheltered ignorance about the realities of a revolution at best.

Don't sell them short. Bernie said this weekend that they also have to march on Washington so a mass of people in Washington will help him "meet with Congress leaders and get them to consider some of my ideas."