Post by shamrockshake on Feb 12, 2016 8:50:15 GMT -5
update- I am so fucking mad right now. as I mentioned in the post we had called school and asked that the sub give us a call, we understood there was an incident Wednesday with L and wanted to talk to her about it. Sub just called me could not have been sweeter. She said Hi Mrs SS, I had a note that you asked me to call you about an incident with L, did something happen? is she ok? I said well, I am kind of hoping you could tell me, I understand there was an incident with a child and candy towards the end of the day? "oh, oh, yes, but that wasn't L, that was another little girl, I was wondering what did I miss that L had an incident!" I said well I understand that L didn't take the candy, but maybe she was somehow a part of it? she said no no, not at all. let me tell you what happened- it was the end of the day, they were lining up and I said I would hope whoever took the candy might put it back, I was very careful not to say stole, or anything like that, and then some of them were joking with me, maybe I ate it, and I said oh not, that's too much candy for me! and I saw K and a couple other girls back at the desk taking it out of K's book bag and putting it back, I said- so you didn't ask who took it? "oh, no, they're 5! I am not going to ask that, I just said I would hope they would put it back" I said, ok, well I got a phone call from teacher saying the class was asked and no one spoke up even though L knew who did it. "oh, no, that is not at all what happened, I am subbing in 5 today and I will try and see teacher after school and make sure she knows that L had nothing to do with it" I thanked her and said could I ask you one more thing, you have subbed for them a few times, how is L for you? "oh my gosh, she's a delightful little girl, so outgoing" I laughed and said, yes, she's chatty "oh, they're 5 and 6, it's kindergarten, they're all chatty! L is such a sweetheart, always so good, does her work, she can be chatty but that's the age, she is no different than the rest"
so, that's where it was left. her teacher fucking lied to me. I am so fucking mad. and if it wasn't crystal clear to me before that she had it out for her it sure as shit is now. I am actually home sick for the afternoon, I was about to take a nap and now I am so fired up, as if that isn't evident from my profanity laced post lol. I am calling school first thing Monday for a meeting with the teacher and the principal.
We've had some issues with my DD2's teacher all year, she's almost 6, in K. Her teacher was also my DD1's teacher 3 years ago, no problems at all that year but my kids are like night and day different. I am trying very very hard not to be "not my preshus" about this and I need some outside perspective
I KNOW my child is a little more difficult- she's spirited, stubborn and likes to talk. She's also the most loving, kind, generous person who really just wants people to love her. she THRIVES on positive reinforcement, she's practically the poster child for it and on the flip side doesn't give a shit about being punished. The teacher is old school, she's in her 60s and from what I see just doesn't work that way, she has only said ONE positive thing about her in all our interactions, everything else is just a litany of all she does wrong
Skipping over everything before this week so this isn't a book, let just say that I have had the feeling for months that this woman just doesn't like my child, DD has said a couple times "Mrs X doesn't like me". So yesterday I get a call from her telling me that while she was out and had a sub on Wednesday, a child (NOT my child, everyone agrees DD had nothing to do with taking anything) took candy off the teachers desk, apparently it's a bowl and at the end of the day they are allowed to take one piece, someone emptied it. Teacher said very clearly they know my DD had nothing to do with taking it, she didn't eat it, BUT when the sub asked if anyone knew who took it no one said anything and my daughter knew who did and "that is just not acceptable, she should have spoken up" The sub said please just put it back, and the little girl who had taken it was afraid so she asked my DD to put it back and she did. So now my DD is in trouble for putting it back for this other girl but not telling the sub who took it in the first place. Teacher said I asked her if she knew what she did was wrong and she said yes, so she does know better. I said did you ask her WHY she did it? was she trying to protect her friend? "no, I didn't ask that"
First off- I don't think she did anything wrong. They're 5! she was the one who put it back. and second, I asked how they knew this other girl took it if my daughter put it back and apparently she put it back and the sub asked her- did you take it? and she said no, K asked me to put it back for her.
2nd- I asked my DD if something happened with candy at school and to please tell me the story and she tells it slightly differently and said that the sub didn't ask who took it first, just said whoever took it can you please put it back and K was afraid so she asked me to and then the sub said did you take it and I said no, K did. so slightly different, but she's 5 so I don't know the truth. I am really tempted to ask to talk to the sub.
I need to know what other parents think of this, I got a 20 minute phone call at work about this, which turned into she thinks my DD needs to see a behavior therapist or a developmental pediatrician for her impulse issues and defiance* and she involved the principal.
Like I said I have had problems with this woman from like week 2 this year, so I don't know what to think about this and if I am now just getting protective of my child but I seriously do not see the big deal in this. This teacher last year had 10 boys in her class, in January she sent letters to 6 of the parents saying she thought they needed to be tested for ADHD, so honestly I was waiting for something like this after I heard that story and how the boys were treated similarly to my DD up until then.
Would you ask to talk to the sub to see what she says?
*defiance came up because sometimes she's asked to do something, example given was put on her coat, and she doesn't do it.
Post by thebuddhagouda on Feb 12, 2016 8:53:23 GMT -5
I would have to know more about their previous interactions because based on this one incident I would be baffled and pushing the issue if they wanted my kid to see a therapist because a 5yo took some unguarded candy.
Post by compassrose on Feb 12, 2016 8:54:05 GMT -5
So your daughter is in trouble for not throwing another little girl under the bus? Good for her. The teacher and the sub sound like cranky old biddies.
Even if the teacher's version is correct, that doesn't mean your DD knew K was the culprit and didn't say anything when/if the sub asked. Maybe K asked your DD to put it back afterwards because she was scared, and your DD didn't know anything beforehand.
It really seems like the teacher is blowing this out of proportion; is there more backstory to explain why the teacher apparently thinks your kid needs a behavior therapist? Nothing in this interaction implies any abnormal issues with impulse control or defiance IMO.
So your daughter is in trouble for not throwing another little girl under the bus? Good for her. The teacher and the sub sound like cranky old biddies.
But she actually DID throw K under the bus, lol--I guess just not as fast as the cranky teacher wanted? This whole thing is ridiculous.
I would have to know more about their previous interactions because based on this one incident I would be baffled and pushing the issue if they wanted my kid to see a therapist because a 5yo took some unguarded candy.
previous issues are she likes to talk and gets in trouble a LOT for talking in class. she's "defiant" because she didn't put her coat on. She "destroyed school property"- she colored with a crayon on the crayon holder in the middle of the table because she was done early and bored. I said, it was destroyed? did you have her clean it off? yes, it came off, but she can't write on school property (which, no, shit, I get it, I am certainly not saying my kid is without blame here I take a lot of issue with her choice of wording "destroyed school property" really?)
she's a "follower and chooses to follow kids who don't make the best choices"
this are all direct quotes from her reports that come home
Not a parent, but I wouldn't entertain the thought of intervention over an incident that wasn't even witnessed by any of the adults who seem so distressed about it. If there's been a history of incidents, fine, address those. But you don't have a valid enough account of the candy incident to act upon it. Plus it sounds like it was handled badly. They're 5. This was a teaching moment.
ETA: I wouldn't talk to the sub. Let this go, let the teacher know you aren't paying the candy incident any more mind but that you'll be glad to address incidents that she's actually witnessed.
ETA2: And yes, keep on her about fair treatment and positive reinforcement. That's where the principal should be involved - in getting this teacher to perform her goddamn job up to modern standards. Not intervening in a candy incident, for God's sake.
Your daughter knows that snitches get stitches. Smart.
Also, this is utter bullshit. My first grade teacher hated me and I was well aware. I was too talkative and too questioning for her liking. She was my bff's younger brother's (follow that?) FAVORITE teacher his entire school career. She was clearly just a jerkface who played favorites.
I found out later my parents were all over her about fair treatment. It helped a little. I say follow up like whoa.
OMG she is 5. All 5 year olds make poor choices. This teacher is being a bitch.
Honestly, I would sit down with her and have a conversation- "positive reinforcement is what works for my kid. I want you to try x, y and z and lets see how things go" If she wasn't willing to try that, I'd be pushing for a switch to a different classroom.
OMG she is 5. All 5 year olds make poor choices. This teacher is being a bitch.
Honestly, I would sit down with her and have a conversation- "positive reinforcement is what works for my kid. I want you to try x, y and z and lets see how things go" If she wasn't willing to try that, I'd be pushing for a switch to a different classroom.
my head almost exploded yesterday when she said to me I know you told me she does best with positive reinforcement but her actions need to have repercussions, I don't know how you handle things at home but I can't have that in a classroom with 19 kids
so basically she thinks I let my kids do whatever at home. she clearly likes me about as much as I like her
OMG she is 5. All 5 year olds make poor choices. This teacher is being a bitch.
Honestly, I would sit down with her and have a conversation- "positive reinforcement is what works for my kid. I want you to try x, y and z and lets see how things go" If she wasn't willing to try that, I'd be pushing for a switch to a different classroom.
my head almost exploded yesterday when she said to me I know you told me she does best with positive reinforcement but her actions need to have repercussions, I don't know how you handle things at home but I can't have that in a classroom with 19 kids
so basically she thinks I let my kids do whatever at home. she clearly likes me about as much as I like her
UGH.
Just because you are doing positive reinforcement doesn't mean you can't ALSO do negative reinforcement! We totally do both at my house (time outs and rewards for good behavior, lots of praising) and it works great for my kid.
How do you think it would go if you asked to meet with both her and the principal?
Post by MeMyselfandI on Feb 12, 2016 9:15:51 GMT -5
It does seem like she doesn't like your kid. I'm sorry. There are teachers out there like that. It's good that she's involved the principal, because now you can take a list of what has happened for the whole year and see what can be done to improve this teacher's behavior. Your kid is 5, geez. Maybe she needs to be teaching older kids, though I'd say she should just retire.
As a side note, my 4th grade teacher was my mom's best friend in high school. She went on maternity leave and our sub decided that since they were friends, I had to have been getting special treatment and she wasn't going to have that. She went out of her way to make me miserable. It got to the point I was throwing up before school because I was so nervous. My mom finally had enough and showed up to class one day and pulled her out in the hall and told her she came to do one thing and that was to kick her ass. They then met with the principal. Not sure what else happened, but she didn't treat me like crap any more. No real point to the story other than saying some teachers are assholes. She sounds like one of them, I'm sorry.
Post by aussiecrush on Feb 12, 2016 9:17:22 GMT -5
For different reasons this was our experience in kindergarten last year. Write down the incidents you remember and go to the principal. While it didn't fix everything, it eased some of the tension and helped my son see that he did plenty of things right each day and build on that. Every mother of a boy is thrilled this teacher is retiring after this year, us especially because DS2 starts there in the fall.
I think the teacher is overreacting, big time. She seems impatient and just miserable and she has to take it out on someone so your daughter has become the target.
She is 5 and her actions reflect that. Nothing she's doing screams behavior problems. I think you should have a sit down with the teacher and principle and talk about these things and using positive reinforcement. If she isn't receptive to that maybe you need to ask for her to be placed in another class.
Post by thebuddhagouda on Feb 12, 2016 9:29:12 GMT -5
Yeah, my almost 6 yo pushes limits to the best of his ability. He's sarcastic, stubborn and very hard to persuade of something once he has his mind made up in the other direction. I know all of this. We work on it. We've had honest conversations with his teacher about it. I would seriously shank someone who tried to tell me he needed behavioral therapy over this.* 5 year olds are going to act like 5 year olds, and if you expect them to act like grown ups, you're the one with the problem, not them.
I'm well aware my child is not perfect, but if a teacher was determined to see nothing but the bad, I'd have a hard time seeing how they could help him be better.
*hyperbole. I do not now nor have I ever owned a shank
Wow. Sounds like a total overreaction to say the least.
Since she has already involved the principal at her choice, I would request a sit down with both of them to discuss this incident and whatever else is leading her to to think your child needs a therapist bc this sounds crazy to me. I would come prepared with how you all handle "defiance" at home with positive reinforcement and ideas for very specific classroom solutions. Like a reward chart each time she listens on the first try, having her be a classroom helper to keep her engaged...
Some people should not teach little kids. (I know, I am one of them).
Post by shamrockshake on Feb 12, 2016 9:39:41 GMT -5
thank you all for weighing in. I am glad to see I am not alone thinking this is a little much. I am going to request a sit down with the teacher and the principal and see what we can do. I am not really hopeful that it's this far into the school year and we're still having these issues. It really makes me sad for my DD too that this woman can't see any goodness in her, because she really is the sweetest
Maybe this is silly, but I would share in the meeting that you daughter often comments that her teacher dislikes her. Maybe the light will go on for the teacher if she hears that (overly optimistic, I know, but worth a try).
Post by DotAndBuzz on Feb 12, 2016 10:03:11 GMT -5
I agree with her that the principal should be involved with what's happening regarding your daughter. Just not for the reasons she thinks.
If this is just a sampling of her inability to work with 5 year olds, I would absolutely schedule a meeting with her and the principal and lay it all out there. Do not back down, and ask her, flat out, how she is so certain that your daughter is defiant if she is unwilling to try what you have clearly told her works.
I don't know what kind of relationship you have with your pediatrician, but since this teacher seems so insistent on referring a large portion of her class for behavioral help, I would try to talk with the pediatrician to see if you can get something in writing stating that these types of behaviors are normal for this age group and that your DD does not need further evaluation. You don't need to do this by any means, but my thought is that maybe if you have something from a doctor that you can show when you meet with them, you can pull it out and say "actually, I took her to her pediatrician and he said that pushing limits and trying to assert independence are all completely age appropriate. Quite frankly I'm surprised that someone who has been doing this as long as you have would be surprised by this behavior and not have tools to manage it effectively." I can't believe that the principal didn't shut this shit down when she sent out letters to the parents of the majority of the boys about ADHD.
Post by hopecounts on Feb 12, 2016 10:10:47 GMT -5
She's trying to suggest your DD has ADD on what sounds like flimsy evidence when I don't think that is at play here based on what you have posted. I think this is. A case of a retired in place teacher who can no longer handle a high spirited kid who needs a slightly different approach. I would want a serious meeting with the Principal and her about this ongoing issue.
I honestly think the teacher and sub sound completely crazy. Who leaves a bowl of candy on their desk and doesn't expect the kids to be tempted?
I don't think your daughter has behavior issues. She sounds a lot like my kid. She is strong willed and talkative and I can see her doing something similar. This is not a impulse control thing this is personality thing.
Your daughter did the right thing here and she should be praised for trying to be a good friend and a good student.
Teacher AND parent here. I'd be done with this bitch, having completely lost patience, and ask for a meeting in person with the principal.
ETA: She told you to have your chid evaluated? If you want to really go for the jugular, ask the principal how the school handles paying for evaluations that you are told to have by the teacher. Because teachers/admin CANNOT tell you to have your child medically evaluated the way she did.
I feel dense here but the candy was taken by another student and your child returned the candy to its proper place in the bowl and told the truth when asked directly, right? So she didn't get the candy from the candy taker and run off with it. What in the world makes the teacher jump to defiance and needs to be evaluated? I would raise hell. Your child didn't steal the candy and she returned it when asked. The child who took the candy should have a phone call home, yours not at all.
Post by rockpaperscissors on Feb 12, 2016 10:33:03 GMT -5
This makes me sad that your DD was trying to be kind to a friend and this is what's happening.
It also makes me sad that in KINDERGARTEN your DD feels like her teacher doesn't like her. I was a spirited, stubborn, chatty kid and even if my teachers were annoyed by me, I never felt disliked. She is 6 freaking years old. I would definitely not put stock in the teacher's assessment and call a meeting with the teacher and principal. This hits close to home for me and I really am angry and sad for your kid.
I am very sorry you are living through this. Even sorrier for your kiddo.
I had the spirited, chatty kindie kid who was prone to rule-breaking. He had the emotionally wrung-out kindie teacher whose husband was deployed to a war zone and whose vocal cords remained paralyzed for over 6 months because of some virus. She was phoning it in at best. It was a very bad fit. Then he had the older evangelical spare-the-rod-and-spoil-the-child teacher for first which was even worse. She hated DS specifically and he felt it.
These teachers didn't like my kid and that hurt to hear, but assholes or not, they were correct that DS was exhibiting behaviors that needed to be sorted through by professionals. I'm not saying there's anything "wrong" with your child, or that this woman isn't pathologizing typical 5 year old behavior, but you should escalate this with the building principal to see if there is a enough going on that an expert should take a second look at your DD. Perhaps the specials teachers or an aide who sees her regularly can bring their perspective to this. That's what convinced me that DS needed to be seen by someone; it would have been tempting to blow off the substandard teachers' advice had the sweet art and music teachers not had concerns as well.
It could be your child is fine in other classes and you can work on getting a different placement instead of an evaluation. That's most likely. If that isn't the case, and you're in a U.S. public school, they are mandated under IDEA to evaluate your child for free. When you meet with the principal, I'd bring copies of all the communication you have from this woman so the principal understands the frequency and level of communication you are getting.
Fuck that noise. I have a daughter in K too. And while she is my rule follower, the one I have right behind her is as defiant as they come. Get the fuck out of here with the behavior specialist shit. 5 year olds are impulsive. Even the most well-behaved ones. And Jesus, if we started sending every defiant kid to a behavior specialist, the field would explode.
My 2nd grader had a teacher like this for first grade. I think she was just tired. She definitely had kids she didn't seem to care for and absolutely treated them differently. All of the "problem" kids are now doing fine without the need for any of the interventions she recommended in 2nd grade. I am close with the moms of at least two kids who were in that position last year, and they are now thriving.