wtf do they want? I find not acknowledging the privilege of being high income incredibly insulting. I mean not personally, but towards those who truly struggle.
Thanks for sharing. This captures something I wonder about all the time: Outrageous expectations vs. reality.
Media/"reality" shows/extravagant lifestyles that have had more exposure than the generations before us grew up with...is it placing unrealistic notions of societal norms and therefore programmed for constant disappointment?
"If you have $200,000 of investible assets—let alone $1 million—and you don’t have the “freedom to live the way you want to live,” perhaps that’s more reflective on your expectations than on your actual means."
I absolutely agree that we need to adjust our expectations. That part reminded me of the article posted the other day when the man earning a million said he didn't have enough. Of course he does but it wasn't what he expects of himself.
You can have over $200,000 investible assets and not have a high income. I think how we define American Dream makes a difference. Same with "freedom to live the way you want to live"
The American Dream incorporates much more than just our financial picture.
People definitely seem to have higher expectations now and I am not counting myself out of this group. I think what happens for us (I mean H and me) is that we hear a number and think it will translate to one type of lifestyle, but realistically, it's doesn't and with that, comes some disappointment if you don't check yourself and make gratitude a part of your routine.
$250,000 should absolutely permit the American Dream, but for many, the Dream now seems to include private school, a chef's kitchen, regular international travel, etc. Many of us are setting the bar higher and higher, and consequently, are disappointed. I think it could be because we have so much access and insight to how "the other half lives." The 10% wants to live like the 1%, who wants to live like the .01% and so on. I think it's important not only to adjust these expectations, but also to think about how most people are living.
Ironically as money and time have become more available, I think we're less satisfied because we have time to dwell on what we don't have instead of just surviving.
I think this is true - primarily because people expect "things" to fulfill us. They can't.
Expectations of what a good marital partner was were much lower than what I think they are today.
This i true in many ways. However, what we also need to look at is how little we consider how WE can be a good partner. It is not our partner's job to fulfill us and make us happy. That is an inside job.
Post by steamboat185 on Apr 25, 2016 12:36:16 GMT -5
Money just isn't a life changing as people think it "should" be. Earlier on I thought if we made 200k a year we'd be able to afford an amazing house and a ski condo and, and, and. Realistically it affords us a pretty awesome lifestyle where we can save money, go on modest vacations, and not worry about day to day expenses. Compared to many/most people that is amazingly lucky (which we realize), but compared to the crazy picture I used to have in my head I could see how someone feels like the American Dream is dead. It's not their perspective just hasn't shifted.
I have lots of thoughts on this, but I think I'll focus on the "American Dream" aspect. The problem is that it's a "dream" - something we all aspire to, but bc it's a dream, it's almost my definition unattainable. So I wouldn't expect many people to admit they are living it, but it is surprising they say no one is.
By the five-point definition given, you could probably say I've attained it (and I don't earn $250k or have $200k outside 401(k)). But it doesn't really feel like a dream when you look around my townhouse, see the dandelions in my yard, and are sitting with me on my 2-hour daily commute. I'm also in the middle-age funk, the bottom of the u-curve so to speak, so I just look around and think "is this it?"
Interesting. By their definition, we have achieved the American Dream and I know that we are very financially secure and fortunate. We don't have $200k in cash or anything, but we own a home, have enough in savings for me to SAH temporarily, are on track with retirement. But I don't feel like we have financial freedom and I wouldn't say we've achieved the dream because part of it to me is doing better than the generation before you. And we will never achieve the wealth our parents did and could never have lived off one income like both our parents did. A big part of it is the increased COL and craziness of the real estate market. We work hard and both make good incomes, but all that money pretty mich goes straight to the mortgage and daycare if I was working.
But then again, maybe my expectations are too high. :^)
People definitely seem to have higher expectations now and I am not counting myself out of this group. I think what happens for us (I mean H and me) is that we hear a number and think it will translate to one type of lifestyle, but realistically, it's doesn't and with that, comes some disappointment if you don't check yourself and make gratitude a part of your routine.
$250,000 should absolutely permit the American Dream, but for many, the Dream now seems to include private school, a chef's kitchen, regular international travel, etc. Many of us are setting the bar higher and higher, and consequently, are disappointed. I think it could be because we have so much access and insight to how "the other half lives." The 10% wants to live like the 1%, who wants to live like the .01% and so on. I think it's important not only to adjust these expectations, but also to think about how most people are living.
Yep. And the bar gets higher even after we achieve our initial goal. On the one hand, being ambitious and wanting more IS part of the american psyche and that drives the american dream and there's nothing wrong with ambition. The problem is that success is increasingly measured in ever-increasingly unnecessary and unattainable material possessions, when material possessions used to measure achievement were so much more modest.
Post by heliocentric on Apr 25, 2016 14:21:55 GMT -5
Wait, am I missing something? (I might have, I read this quickly.) Do these people think they haven't attained the "American Dream" or that it is out of reach for others / harder to attain than previously?
For example, they mention "62% of those between 55 and 64 years-old believe the American Dream is unattainable." Perhaps those people think that their kids and grandkids will struggle in ways they didn't.
Wait, am I missing something? (I might have, I read this quickly.) Do these people think they haven't attained the "American Dream" or that it is out of reach for others / harder to attain than previously?
For example, they mention "62% of those between 55 and 64 years-old believe the American Dream is unattainable." Perhaps those people think that their kids and grandkids will struggle in ways they didn't.
Only 23% "strongly agreed" they had reached it.
But the article did not report the agree or maybe answers. So that could be higher.
I have lots of thoughts on this, but I think I'll focus on the "American Dream" aspect. The problem is that it's a "dream" - something we all aspire to, but bc it's a dream, it's almost my definition unattainable. So I wouldn't expect many people to admit they are living it, but it is surprising they say no one is.
By the five-point definition given, you could probably say I've attained it (and I don't earn $250k or have $200k outside 401(k)). But it doesn't really feel like a dream when you look around my townhouse, see the dandelions in my yard, and are sitting with me on my 2-hour daily commute. I'm also in the middle-age funk, the bottom of the u-curve so to speak, so I just look around and think "is this it?"
Hugs rubytue, how are we middle aged already?! I find that now I can really relate to the Bill Murray scene in City Slickers where he says "Have you ever had that feeling that this is the best I'm ever gonna do, this is the best I'm ever gonna feel... and it ain't that great?" Yeah.
Right?!
I'm slowly accepting middle age, and I find I really feel it with little things like still having a land line, not being able to hook up my stereo, and coming really close to saying "kids these days..." And meaning it lol
1. cell phones. Yes, technically, you can live without one, but honestly? Not having one gets in the way of personal relationships, of jobs opportunities etc.
2. personal computers. We had one when I was growing up, but when it broke, it wasn't replaced right away. If you want your kid to be competitive, not only do you have one in your home but very often he/she has to have his own to use and take with him to school. I know schools sometimes give them out but ime there are often not enough and they go to kids who really have no access otherwise and even then...
3. internet service. Again, many people live without this, but it gets in the way of finding and keeping a job...of a kid being able to be competitive in school etc.
If you look at just these 3 things that's about $300-$400 that our parents didn't have to spend - every month!
So yes, our dollars are paying for more things but many of these things are not really luxuries when you get down to it. If I as an engineer told my boss I didn't have internet at home, or a cell phone, there would be judgments made about me that I think would be career limiting.
And that's where I think this feeling of not living the dream is. It's not just a personal bar that's shifted, it's shifted as a society...and maybe even globally, which is why there's this growing feeling that we're just keeping up.
Honestly, I feel like maybe we're on the cusp of something, a big shift, where a lot of these things will be considered basic necessities. And how we handle making sure everyone gets a fair share will decide whether we live in a utopian or dystopian future.
I can't help but disagree. You can have a cell phone, internet and a computer for less than hundreds a month. I feel like being in a place where you're able to be a competitive student or have a professional career are all part of being upper middle class. Maybe it's living in a rural area where poor is really poor, but I feel like having access to these things without sacrifice is all part of my 'american dream' lifestyle.
Post by pantsparty on Apr 25, 2016 17:27:53 GMT -5
Is this article saying that the perception of the "American dream" is basically filthy rich? That seems to be the subtext, at least of those who had voted they had not achieved it, with a significant amount of assets in the bank.
Maybe I just have low expectations. But I do feel my life is pretty fantastic, without that amount of money in the bank, luxurious vacations or the like.
Well, yeah, that's ridiculous. But I wonder if these people came from money. Society is a lot less mobile today than it was, right? It's harder for the poor to become not poor, and for the middle class to become rich.
So are they comparing themselves to their parents at the same age, like so many of us are? Are they further behind than they thought they'd be, given their start in life?
I think a key aspect of the American dream is the ability to grow up poor and become successful through hard work. So if I grew up wealthy and remained wealthy, but I perceived that the people I knew from disadvantaged backgrounds didn't have the same opportunities, I would probably say that the American dream was dead, regardless of how I felt about my own circumstances.
So basically, I don't think all of the author's inferences are valid without knowing how the survey respondents would define the American dream.
ETA: I skimmed the article the first time. I now see that they did define it. But I still feel like it's hard to make too many inferences from the limited results that the author presents.
I think a key aspect of the American dream is the ability to grow up poor and become successful through hard work. So if I grew up wealthy and remained wealthy, but I perceived that the people I knew from disadvantaged backgrounds didn't have the same opportunities, I would probably say that the American dream was dead, regardless of how I felt about my own circumstances.
So basically, I don't think all of the author's inferences are valid without knowing how the survey respondents would define the American dream.
ETA: I skimmed the article the first time. I now see that they did define it. But I still feel like it's hard to make too many inferences from the limited results that the author presents.
I agree. I feel like I've done well so far (combination of privilege, luck, and hard work, like the author), but I also understand that economic mobility as a whole is much harder than it used to be for at least some demographics. I think I'm much less likely to move say into the top 1% than someone of my background would have been a century ago, and some of the same phenomena are keeping many others impoverished. That doesn't mean I'm not happy where I am, just that I understand statistics!
I'm middle aged (40 & my DH is 41) and already we've achieved more than I honestly thought possible but I'll admit it's not all I thought it would be peace of mind & fulfilling wise. I think part of not acknowledging it (admitting you are "set" or "rich") is that you don't want to rest on your laurels because many people feel like it could all go away...stocks drop & there goes your investments/retirement, savings pays so little interest that it doesn't even keep pace with inflation, RE prices plummet (& suddenly you might be upside down on your house), you might loose your job & HAVE to move to find another, inflation happens and that $200K might not get you nearly what you thought it would. It's like a race but you don't know where the finish line is and it keeps moving (in your head if nothing else). I know I've lived through most these "bad" scenarios either personally or seen my parents. IRA(s)/Stocks/401(k)s aren't like pensions of old and we all know Social Security isn't going to save us in the end. Even high income people often don't own outright their homes and with expensive property taxes in many places, even if paid off it may never end or be out of "risk". I think that's what people are feeling--vulnerable in a way that won't end with $200K in investments & owning a home. I think stopping the raising of the bar is key but as we all know, that's easier said than done. So the financial stability/security feeling everyone longs for as part of the "Dream" is very, very difficult to come by...
Thanks for sharing. This captures something I wonder about all the time: Outrageous expectations vs. reality.
Media/"reality" shows/extravagant lifestyles that have had more exposure than the generations before us grew up with...is it placing unrealistic notions of societal norms and therefore programmed for constant disappointment?
"If you have $200,000 of investible assets—let alone $1 million—and you don’t have the “freedom to live the way you want to live,” perhaps that’s more reflective on your expectations than on your actual means."