The GOP and minorities

[teflep]

The gop has a serious pr problem and I believe that is why they don't get more minority votes. They also focus too much on social conservative issues, like abortion to really woo people. If they focused on fiscal issues and small gov,and that was it, many would probably vote gop, regardless of dem candidate.

Did some black voters vote for BO because he, too, is black? Probably but I dont think the number was huge. I don't believe it was due to brainwashing either, but to other issues, die-hard someone like me who may have dealt with similar things as me).

Neither party has a hold on minority votes insomuch as it is unchangeable. The dems are winning due to the focus on being for the individual and not just for corporations or the rich. Npr just did a piece onthis last week how this can easily change. The gop just needs to leave some social issues in the past.

[iammalcolmx]

Thank you Cookie, IIOY and Tef. Goldie you have been a hot ass mess over the past couple of days.

[Deleted]

Sept 9, 2012 8:56:49 GMT -5 GailGoldie said:

Sept 9, 2012 7:46:39 GMT -5 @mx said:

Also, if I heard a kid say this I wouldn't necessarily assume their mom was on welfare and had been forever (since the time limits are so strict, that's highly unlikely). Is it bad for kids to aspire to be a SAHM/D? I know quite a few little girls who would say the same and they aren't poor and black.

I have taught/known a shit load of little 5yo kids... and never have I heard this type of answer- except when teaching in the inner city NOLA school. Not only did she not have some dreamy answer of "ballerina! Princess!"... but she KNEW that asking the question was about work- and knew her mom didn't work... so why should she? Her dad was no involved, so it wasn't a sweet little SAHM situation.

She didn't say "i want to be a mommy"... which would not have been sad to me... she said "i'm not gonna work". Big difference.

[cookiemdough]

Sept 9, 2012 9:34:07 GMT -5 teflep said:

Neither party has a hold on minority votes insomuch as it is unchangeable. The dems are winning due to the focus on being for the individual and not just for corporations or the rich. Npr just did a piece onthis last week how this can easily change. The gop just needs to leave some social issues in the past.

I also agree that the focus on corps doesn't resonate as much. The African American unemployment has typically been higher than the rest of the country so if you think about it an improvement for corps doesn't feel like an improvement for black people because changing the unemployment numbers for us requires more than an improvement for corps. When white males with a record have a better chance if getting hired than black males without one there is more going on than a bad economic environment for corps to change the stubborn issue of poverty. Education is key and I think a party championing cuts to education needs to make the argument of how that will improve the quality of education in the long run.

[cookiemdough]

Sept 9, 2012 8:56:49 GMT -5 GailGoldie said:

Sept 9, 2012 7:46:39 GMT -5 @mx said:

Also, if I heard a kid say this I wouldn't necessarily assume their mom was on welfare and had been forever (since the time limits are so strict, that's highly unlikely). Is it bad for kids to aspire to be a SAHM/D? I know quite a few little girls who would say the same and they aren't poor and black.

I have taught/known a shit load of little 5yo kids... and never have I heard this type of answer- except when teaching in the inner city NOLA school. Not only did she not have some dreamy answer of "ballerina! Princess!"... but she KNEW that asking the question was about work- and knew her mom didn't work... so why should she? Her dad was no involved, so it wasn't a sweet little SAHM situation.

She didn't say "i want to be a mommy"... which would not have been sad to me... she said "i'm not gonna work". Big difference.

I also think the assumption that a kid from an inner city school where poverty is prevalent is going to give a "dreamy" answer to what they want to be when they grow up seems kind of out of touch. I mean seriously do they even have access to dance lessons to have that kind of dream? However when they give a answer like you heard I would hope a teacher would work with them on options rather than looking at them as fulfilling a stereotype at 5 years old.

[teflep]

Sept 9, 2012 10:03:48 GMT -5 cookiemdough said:

Sept 9, 2012 8:56:49 GMT -5 GailGoldie said:

I have taught/known a shit load of little 5yo kids... and never have I heard this type of answer- except when teaching in the inner city NOLA school. Not only did she not have some dreamy answer of "ballerina! Princess!"... but she KNEW that asking the question was about work- and knew her mom didn't work... so why should she? Her dad was no involved, so it wasn't a sweet little SAHM situation.

She didn't say "i want to be a mommy"... which would not have been sad to me... she said "i'm not gonna work". Big difference.

I also think the assumption that a kid from an inner city school where poverty is prevalent is going to give a "dreamy" answer to what they want to be when they grow up seems kind of out of touch. I mean seriously do they even have access to dance lessons to have that kind of dream? However when they give a answer like you heard I would hope a teacher would work with them on options rather than looking at them as fulfilling a stereotype at 5 years old.

I dont get the ballerina thing, but princess? That is pretty common (Disney is all over). THat is all I have on that part.

[cookiemdough]

Sept 9, 2012 10:17:35 GMT -5 teflep said:

Sept 9, 2012 10:03:48 GMT -5 cookiemdough said:

I also think the assumption that a kid from an inner city school where poverty is prevalent is going to give a "dreamy" answer to what they want to be when they grow up seems kind of out of touch. I mean seriously do they even have access to dance lessons to have that kind of dream? However when they give a answer like you heard I would hope a teacher would work with them on options rather than looking at them as fulfilling a stereotype at 5 years old.

I dont get the ballerina thing, but princess? That is pretty common (Disney is all over). THat is all I have on that part.

Maybe? But until recently no princesses looked like me : ).

[teflep]

Sept 9, 2012 10:25:34 GMT -5 cookiemdough said:

Sept 9, 2012 10:17:35 GMT -5 teflep said:

I dont get the ballerina thing, but princess? That is pretty common (Disney is all over). THat is all I have on that part.

Maybe? But until recently no princesses looked like me : ).

True, but to be fair, no princesses look like real people. Have you seen their racks? I have a large chest but holy moley.

[cookiemdough]

Lol!

[heyjude]

I feel embarrassed to share the same race as Goldie.

We have a friend who is a nypd and because he spends his whole day w/ criminals he presents himself as someone who has a very myopic view of humanity. He lives in this strange bubble. Goldie reminds me of him.

[mominatrix]

Sept 8, 2012 14:44:39 GMT -5 @reeve said:

Sept 8, 2012 12:04:09 GMT -5 @soudesafinado said:

There has been a lot of talk about how diverse the crowd at the DNC was compared to that of the RNC. What do you think Republicans should/could do to attract more minorities to the party?

Lose a few elections, and realize they have to?

Maybe I'm doing too much of the history, but that already happened. Kinda.

In 1992, when Bush I was up for re-election, the RNC was scary white. Like, really, really scary white. It included a famous speech by Pat Buchanan on the "culture war" that was... well... really scary.

The general feeling among analysts afterwards was that the R party needed to diversify, badly, if they wanted to win elections again.

[heyjude]

Sept 9, 2012 10:34:16 GMT -5 mominatrix said:

Sept 8, 2012 14:44:39 GMT -5 @reeve said:

Lose a few elections, and realize they have to?

Maybe I'm doing too much of the history, but that already happened. Kinda.

In 1992, when Bush I was up for re-election, the RNC was scary white. Like, really, really scary white. It included a famous speech by Pat Buchanan on the "culture war" that was... well... really scary.

The general feeling among analysts afterwards was that the R party needed to diversify, badly, if they wanted to win elections again.

Yes, wasn't this the whole point behind Bush II's "compassionate conservatism"?

[ESF]

Sept 9, 2012 6:40:33 GMT -5 iammalcolmx said:

Sept 8, 2012 20:41:03 GMT -5 GailGoldie said:

Some programs are good... some are not. Some are good to a point. Teaching in inner-city New Orleans I watched children learning that there's no reason to work hard b/c they'll just get everything free... when a K student tells you, when asked "what do you want to be when you grow up?", that "I'm not gonna work- my momma doesn't work, why should I?"... it's really sad. She doesn't have motivation to learn to read... do math, etc bc she sees no need for it in her future.

I call bullshit on this mentality being a result of social programs or political party since most social programs have time limits. This mentality comes from those who don't think they can get out of the situation they are in. Poverty is typically cyclical for a variety of reasons.

I agree, and I think this is a big problem with the GOP platform, and why it can be alienating to many minorities. Rather than offering solutions on how to get out of the cycle of poverty, the GOP pretends that it's not a real thing, and remains focused on bootstraps. I'm not saying that the Dems have all the answers, but I think the party accepts it as real.

I think the same can be said for racism. While I don't think the Dems can waive a magic wand and make racism end with their policies, I feel like they are at least aware of systemic racism and try to find ways to overcome it. The R party on the other hand, denies that it exists, and seems more focused on so called "reverse racism."

I think the R party would have more success if it accepted those concepts as true, rather than running from them. They can explain how their neutral-treat-everyone-equal solutions can better those people left behind by systemic poverty and racism.

For example, rather than talking about a school voucher program in a vacuum or ignoring concerns that a program like that isn't going to help the kids who need education reform the most -- namely kids so deep in a cycle of poverty that they don't have parents that can be successful advocates for them -- they could come to west Oakland and tell people how their school voucher program is going to help those people in that high school, one that sucks in large part because of the impact that property tax funding of schools has had on poor minority school districts. Instead, they've chosen to present vouchers as a solution to teachers unions, bureaucracy, and a failure to use bootstraps, which isn't why people in West Oakland think their schools suck, KWIM?

[ttt]

Sept 9, 2012 9:34:07 GMT -5 teflep said:

The gop has a serious pr problem and I believe that is why they don't get more minority votes. They also focus too much on social conservative issues, like abortion to really woo people. If they focused on fiscal issues and small gov,and that was it, many would probably vote gop, regardless of dem candidate.

Did some black voters vote for BO because he, too, is black? Probably but I dont think the number was huge. I don't believe it was due to brainwashing either, but to other issues, die-hard someone like me who may have dealt with similar things as me).

Neither party has a hold on minority votes insomuch as it is unchangeable. The dems are winning due to the focus on being for the individual and not just for corporations or the rich. Npr just did a piece onthis last week how this can easily change. The gop just needs to leave some social issues in the past.

I disagree about this. I think the abortion issue could actually be a winner in terms of attracting minority votes, especially among Hispanics. A lot of Hispanics are Catholic and a lot of them are very religious, so abortion is something where they agree with the GOP. Ditto on the whole "family values" thing as Hispanics are an especially family-oriented culture. But if you're a pro-life, religious Hispanic who is proud of her culture, and then you see the GOP go on about how everyone needs to speak English and how people who don't look "American" have to show their ID to prove they belong in this country, are you really going to go out and support them? Even if you're a citizen or a legal resident from Mexico, you may very well have friends or relatives who are illegal or who haven't been able to come here legally - how are you going to feel when a Republican goes on about how illegal immigrants are destroying the country and how we should look the other way when border vigilantes shoot them dead?

So while personally I can't stand the GOP platform on social issues, I don't think it's what's repelling minorities. I think it's the support, spoken and unspoken, that they give to the racists in their base and within the party.

[NitaX]

Sept 9, 2012 10:16:13 GMT -5 @soudesafinado said:

I lost my Internet again and am on my phone so won't be able to say all I'd like but I wanted to let Goldie know that for the past five years you have brought up this teaching in NOLA experience one time too damn many and honestly you sound like a bigot.

[heightsyankee]

Sept 9, 2012 8:56:49 GMT -5 GailGoldie said:

Sept 9, 2012 7:46:39 GMT -5 @mx said:

Also, if I heard a kid say this I wouldn't necessarily assume their mom was on welfare and had been forever (since the time limits are so strict, that's highly unlikely). Is it bad for kids to aspire to be a SAHM/D? I know quite a few little girls who would say the same and they aren't poor and black.

I have taught/known a shit load of little 5yo kids... and never have I heard this type of answer- except when teaching in the inner city NOLA school. Not only did she not have some dreamy answer of "ballerina! Princess!"... but she KNEW that asking the question was about work- and knew her mom didn't work... so why should she? Her dad was no involved, so it wasn't a sweet little SAHM situation.

She didn't say "i want to be a mommy"... which would not have been sad to me... she said "i'm not gonna work". Big difference.

I feel like this kind of answered the question at hand.

[ttt]

Sept 9, 2012 8:56:49 GMT -5 GailGoldie said:

Sept 9, 2012 7:46:39 GMT -5 @mx said:

Also, if I heard a kid say this I wouldn't necessarily assume their mom was on welfare and had been forever (since the time limits are so strict, that's highly unlikely). Is it bad for kids to aspire to be a SAHM/D? I know quite a few little girls who would say the same and they aren't poor and black.

I have taught/known a shit load of little 5yo kids... and never have I heard this type of answer- except when teaching in the inner city NOLA school. Not only did she not have some dreamy answer of "ballerina! Princess!"... but she KNEW that asking the question was about work- and knew her mom didn't work... so why should she? Her dad was no involved, so it wasn't a sweet little SAHM situation.

She didn't say "i want to be a mommy"... which would not have been sad to me... she said "i'm not gonna work". Big difference.

So, one five year old is representative of an entire race of people??

[NitaX]

Sept 9, 2012 14:09:06 GMT -5 nuggetbrain said:

Sept 9, 2012 9:17:41 GMT -5 cookiemdough said:

This kind of stuff is what at least this minority finds offensive. It is an all too common talking point on the right. You can't woo voters by implying they are brainwashed or uninformed if they don't agree with the republican party platform. It is just as offensive as implying white people vote republican because they are unwilling to vote for a black man.

Thank you. That was extremely offensive and obnoxious.

Also, Goldie, please stop with the "vast libs that are bashing us". We've had some extremely productive and interesting discussions the last week or so. Let it the fuck go.

In fact, this thread was going just fine until Goldie started in with that Giant NOLA Public School Chip on her shoulder.

[ESF]

Sept 9, 2012 14:12:49 GMT -5 NitaX said:

Sept 9, 2012 14:09:06 GMT -5 nuggetbrain said:

Thank you. That was extremely offensive and obnoxious.

Also, Goldie, please stop with the "vast libs that are bashing us". We've had some extremely productive and interesting discussions the last week or so. Let it the fuck go.

In fact, this thread was going just fine until Goldie started in with that Giant NOLA Public School Chip on her shoulder.

I completely agree, but it takes two to tango. Goldie deserved every single one of the call outs here, but that's also no reason to stop all productive discussion while we wait for her to come back and bring us more stupid and/or offensive remarks. I think we'd be able to have more productive discussions if we didn't let every single nutter derail discussion completely.

Now, I've offered my post-Goldie position of substance back on page 2. Anyone else want to continue playing?

[cookiemdough]

Sept 9, 2012 14:39:15 GMT -5 ESF said:

Sept 9, 2012 14:12:49 GMT -5 NitaX said:

In fact, this thread was going just fine until Goldie started in with that Giant NOLA Public School Chip on her shoulder.

I completely agree, but it takes two to tango. Goldie deserved every single one of the call outs here, but that's also no reason to stop all productive discussion while we wait for her to come back and bring us more stupid and/or offensive remarks. I think we'd be able to have more productive discussions if we didn't let every single nutter derail discussion completely.

Now, I've offered my post-Goldie position of substance back on page 2. Anyone else want to continue playing?

I actually agree with you and TTT. With you regarding the frustration many feel when there is denial about institutional racism. It makes people feel like you can't identify with them and makes the bootstrap argument seem unattainable. There is a completely different amount of effort to pull yourself out when you are a kid in poverty at a failing school than a middle class kid voluntarily getting a summer job flipping burgers.

I agree with TTT that social issues are not automatically a deterrent. I know some black people who would consider voting r because they don't believe in gay marriage similar to her catholic Hispanic abortion example.

That being said the bad PR surrounding the way the rest of the issues are framed still alienate even those minorities that may agree with certain social platforms.

[iammalcolmx]

A decent amount of black people are pretty socially conservative. I think a large number of us started voting democratic when we started believing that in some cases the Fed's do have to step in. Civil Rights is an example of this. If the GOP focused on how the War on Drugs impacts our community I think they would be better received in the Black Community.

[MrsAxilla]

Sept 9, 2012 8:56:49 GMT -5 GailGoldie said:

Sept 9, 2012 7:46:39 GMT -5 @mx said:

Also, if I heard a kid say this I wouldn't necessarily assume their mom was on welfare and had been forever (since the time limits are so strict, that's highly unlikely). Is it bad for kids to aspire to be a SAHM/D? I know quite a few little girls who would say the same and they aren't poor and black.

I have taught/known a shit load of little 5yo kids... and never have I heard this type of answer- except when teaching in the inner city NOLA school. Not only did she not have some dreamy answer of "ballerina! Princess!"... but she KNEW that asking the question was about work- and knew her mom didn't work... so why should she? Her dad was no involved, so it wasn't a sweet little SAHM situation.

She didn't say "i want to be a mommy"... which would not have been sad to me... she said "i'm not gonna work". Big difference.

I'm confused why you even brought this up. I could maybe see your point if you were getting this answer all the time, but only once? Was she the only child you ever taught on welfare?

FWIW, my five year old doesn't plan to work either. He has not one but TWO piggy banks filled with money, so he he can be a superhero instead of doing "paperwork" all day like daddy.

[basilosaurus]

I'm not sure the GOP platform as it stands now can appeal to minorities. I think they might be able to spin their perspective to be more appealing, but I think the core of it just isn't.

To my (liberally biased) eyes, the platform is all about cutting programs that help the poor and giving to millionaires and corporations. And since minorities disproportionately make up the poor in this country, the GOP is generally bad for them. Now, they might be able to talk a good game about trickle down or somesuch to garner more votes, but I think it would be based on having good rhetoric, not good policy.

Social issues like abortion are a mixed bag. Blacks are on average pro-choice, hispanics not as much. But in both groups, a very small percentage think it's a priority. sojo.net/blogs/2012/07/26/pro-life-or-pro-choice-many-are-saying-both

[Deleted]

Sept 9, 2012 14:39:15 GMT -5 ESF said:

Now, I've offered my post-Goldie position of substance back on page 2. Anyone else want to continue playing?

I agree with what you said, and I think it actually goes hand-in-hand with my point about not even campaigning in cities.

There obviously are some minorities who think that the GOP's platform is better for them with regard to economics. But it does seem that the GOP has done a piss poor job of trying to explain to large sections of the population how their plans will help those groups.

I also think you're right about needing to acknowledge things like disparate unemployment and discrimination. Look at the Ledbetter Act - the GOP overwhelmingly opposed legislation intended to return to women the ability to enforce their right to equal pay. That reflects an attitude that either a) sex discrimination doesn't exist, or b) the rights of discrimination victims should be subordinated to the needs of business. If that's the GOP's position on sex discrimination, why would anyone expect it to be different regarding race discrimination?

Obviously, that's just one example. And maybe the GOP can make a compelling case for why most racial minorities would benefit from their tax and other economic policies. But it's pretty hard to convince people that your policies will work if at the same time, you're telling them that the discrimination they see around them isn't real or is less important than a corporate bottom line.

[teflep]

Sept 9, 2012 14:39:15 GMT -5 ESF said:

.

Now, I've offered my post-Goldie position of substance back on page 2. Anyone else want to continue playing?

Are you blocking me or did you not like my boob comment?

[teflep]

Sept 9, 2012 14:09:06 GMT -5 nuggetbrain said:

Sept 9, 2012 9:17:41 GMT -5 cookiemdough said:

This kind of stuff is what at least this minority finds offensive. It is an all too common talking point on the right. You can't woo voters by implying they are brainwashed or uninformed if they don't agree with the republican party platform. It is just as offensive as implying white people vote republican because they are unwilling to vote for a black man.

Thank you. That was extremely offensive and obnoxious.

Also, Goldie, please stop with the "vast libs that are bashing us". We've had some extremely productive and interesting discussions the last week or so. Let it the fuck go.

We get it, NB. Just move on and continue the conversation.

[ttt]

Does the GOP actually *want* to appeal to minorities? It seems to me that they've taken the position of "since they aren't on our side, let's just try to get them to stay home" a la voter ID laws rather than trying to win them over to their side.

[mrslefty]

Sept 9, 2012 8:56:49 GMT -5 GailGoldie said:

Sept 9, 2012 7:46:39 GMT -5 @mx said:

Also, if I heard a kid say this I wouldn't necessarily assume their mom was on welfare and had been forever (since the time limits are so strict, that's highly unlikely). Is it bad for kids to aspire to be a SAHM/D? I know quite a few little girls who would say the same and they aren't poor and black.

I have taught/known a shit load of little 5yo kids... and never have I heard this type of answer- except when teaching in the inner city NOLA school. Not only did she not have some dreamy answer of "ballerina! Princess!"... but she KNEW that asking the question was about work- and knew her mom didn't work... so why should she? Her dad was no involved, so it wasn't a sweet little SAHM situation.

She didn't say "i want to be a mommy"... which would not have been sad to me... she said "i'm not gonna work". Big difference.

I think this exemplifies part of the problem. It is automatically assumed her mom is a lazy welfare queen and her daughter can't wait to follow in her footsteps, rather than looking at the social, cultural, and economic factors that might influence a five year old to think she wouldn't work.

(Not to derail the actually great conversation going on, I just thought this exhibited a lot of what people are talking about)

[NitaX]

Sept 9, 2012 15:57:38 GMT -5 ttt said:

Does the GOP actually *want* to appeal to minorities? It seems to me that they've taken the position of "since they aren't on our side, let's just try to get them to stay home" a la voter ID laws rather than trying to win them over to their side.

I think they do or they wouldn't have made Steele Chairman of the RNC, or they wouldn't put forth an effort to put people Mia Love on the stage. Most black folks I know have no problem with Colin Powell or Condi Rice. The issue is the way the GOP alienates minorities in speaking to them. It's demeaning to hear that black folks are brainwashed into voting Democratic just as it's insulting to Kirkette or Habs that being a Republican and a minority means you're a token.

I still say you can get people to go along with re-vamping social programs if you can say, look, the current approach doesn't seem to work. We need an innovative method. But, don't show up telling folks, well you need to have a child janitor team to teach inner-city kids a work ethic. Change the way you say it. You want kids to learn a work ethic, say - we need to create more job opportunities and we're going to work with local businesses to start youth employment opportunities. You get more flies with honey is all I'm saying.

[marie427]

Sept 9, 2012 15:53:14 GMT -5 @majorwife said:

inI agree with the points esf made. However, i think at this point it is a calculated risk. If they acknowledge systematic racism they might lose their base to gain an unknown number of minorities.

Yeah, and that "base" within the GOP that won't be happy the GOP acknowledging systematic racism will eventually become full of new minorities themselves thanks to demographic shifts. The GOP absolutely needs to reach out to current minorities even if it will cost them for a little while.