I don't think its just the country though. Maybe I just lived in a bubble but I never saw anyone bring a child to work in London. H is sitting here and he didn't, either.
The difference was they had more flexible leave for family. So if the kid was sick, it was no big deal to stay home. THAT is the bigger issue...not the concept that kids don't belong in the work place during working hours.
I'm with heyjude--I kind of don't get the hate. Not just, "well, I wouldn't be comfortable doing that, but it is what it is", but "how DARE she!". Sometimes, childcare falls through. I almost had to bring DD to a class this summer (I wasn't the teacher), but I was lucky enough to be able to call a nanny service that charged an hourly fee out of the budgets of most people. I feel like the "children never have any place in the workplace NO MATTER THE CIRCUMSTANCES" attitude is part (not all, just part) of why we have such a shitty work-life balance in this country. Sometimes, you have to meld your roles as worker and parent.
I agree, to a point, but kid is sick. Why expose all to the germs?
I agree--I said earlier that it probably wasn't the best idea to bring a sick kid in. But, we don't know the circumstances surrounding the situation fully. I'm willing to bet this professor didn't have a nanny just waiting to be called and decided to bring the baby in anyway.
Since we are going all anecdoty: My mom was the managing partner of her firm (the local branch). She only ever let me come to work on Saturdays when the office was quiet. And i sat in a room by myself and read/did homework.
If I was sick, she had to call in a favor or take a sick day. It sucked as a single mom, but even as the boss she couldn't/wouldn't do it.
But, see, that's the advantage of being the managing partner; you can set the schedule. I don't think anyone would prefer to bring a sick child to work; most people would prefer to stay home I think. But if you cannot stay home - because you are a teacher, because you have to sit in on a meeting, because you have a brief to get out, because it is quarter end and you need to close the books - then you do the best you can. Children in the office is never a good long term solution. But it happens sometimes and I can honestly say I have never been inconvenienced as a result.
My firm does really strive to be a good place for working women though. So maybe that is also part of it.
Also, I think it's kind of indicative of how removed academics can be from 'real life' in that she thinks it's totally normal and OK to just bring your kid to work if you can't find childcare.
I think some of the posts in this thread reinforce this notion. I'm kind of flabbergasted that some people are ok with professors bringing their children to the classes they are teaching. I am a professor and I don't condone this at all. Never mind the bf'ing component.
Thats great your job does that elle. However, most would prefer the parent (male or female) to take the time off. I know we are explicitly told that are sick days are generous enough to cover ourselves and our children, and to not feel guilty if we need to use them.
In many many cases, the loss of one day labor of one employee is not as big of a deal as the work lost by the distraction of everyone else.
Post by basilosaurus on Sept 10, 2012 19:38:15 GMT -5
Haven't all of us gone in to work or school when having a fever? Most people don't stay home until they feel like shit, not because they might be walking (crawling) germ factories.
I loved going to my dad's office. He was a computer engineer in the 80s, so there were fun parts. And lots of computer paper for coloring. I don't think we went often, and probably only for a couple hours on a saturday, but I know there were a few sick days spent sleeping on his couch. The difference is that he's a guy, so people probably thought it was awesome and family oriented instead of unprofessional.
nah, I judge women and men the same on this. I think, actually, I'm harder on men who do it because I do feel for BFing women as in that its harder to leave them.
Post by josieposy on Sept 10, 2012 19:40:23 GMT -5
I can't think of any job I've ever had where bringing your kid with you to work during business hours was acceptable. This would not even cross my mind. I'd call in sick first. I've never seen people bring their kids to work for more than a few minutes unless the office was closed.
Those ok with it, would it be ok in a high school? Just curious, i realize the two are different.
Not ideal but I have had an emergency where I took my son to work I teach high school. Had my friend watch him first period (it was her planning) I got my sub plans together and waited for the sub and then took my son home. As well as the other time I mentioned. So 2 times in his nearly 4 yrs of life. Not doing great but we have NO family close by, our good friends all work and I am not comfortable leaving my son who has asthma and numerous allergies with some random sitter. BUt I get that it is not ideal. I just don't think some full of themselves student needed to make a huge deal if the professor only did it once.
Thats great your job does that elle. However, most would prefer the parent (male or female) to take the time off. I know we are explicitly told that are sick days are generous enough to cover ourselves and our children, and to not feel guilty if we need to use them.
In many many cases, the loss of one day labor of one employee is not as big of a deal as the work lost by the distraction of everyone else.
Yes, ideally, of course you would stay home with the child. But if it's a day where you need to be in the office, and childcare falls through, you do what you have to do. Obviously (I assume) this only happens when the balance of equities favors coming in with the child over staying home. I think it's rare, but it's not never.
jackpot: so you didn't take him into class? That is what I was asking about.
No he was not in class with me. My students saw him and that was it. Still felt super distracted and crazed but I did not stand and teach with him. I did conduct 9th grade orientation with him in the Beco carrier when he was 9 mos. and had a daycare crisis. I fully admit I was wrong and would have gotten in a buch of trouble if my principal did not have a heart and knew that I was in an awful bind. My senior student mentioned me having him with me the other day, so they certainly remember the day.
Aren't most daycares super anal about kids with fevers? I mean, babies get fevers all the time. From the way she's describing the baby, it wasn't acting very sick - crawling around, interacting, not laying around lethargically. Probably the baby was running a mild fever and the daycare does as daycares usually do, freak out and ban her until it's gone. I don't blame them, they don't want something going through the other kids like wildfire, but I see a lot of assumptions in this thread that the kid was deathly ill when that isn't necessarily the case.
Post by 5thofjuly on Sept 10, 2012 20:32:52 GMT -5
A couple of profs. in my last department brought (and wore, and may have BF, though I'm not sure) their babies to work on occasion (like once or twice per semester.) It's not something I'd feel comfortable doing, but it wasn't considered to be a big deal in my relatively crunchy department.
Post by kimibrighteyes on Sept 10, 2012 20:33:19 GMT -5
I'm a physician and also in charge of the medical students doing their rotation at our hospital. Every 8 weeks a new group of students meet and I meet them for 45 minutes to orient them. I was scheduled to be on vacation the week that a new group was to start (I was home with the kids that week since my nanny was away). The 2 physicians who could cover the orientation for me were both out of town that day. My program assistant who could probably cover most things was newly hired and had no idea about what to do. I brought all 3 kids in and held the 15 month old twins in my lap while I oriented the students and answered their questions. My 4 year old daughter sat quietly at the side. I didn't do it by choice but had no other option as I couldn't find child care. I didn't get any negative feedback
Since we are going all anecdoty: My mom was the managing partner of her firm (the local branch). She only ever let me come to work on Saturdays when the office was quiet. And i sat in a room by myself and read/did homework.
Totally anectody and unrelated as well but I remember my dad bringing us to his office on some Saturday mornings (he is a lawyer). He stuck us in this glass walled conference room, left us with red fancy pens and yellow legal pads and let us go to town playing bumper cars with the large rolling leather exec chairs. I thought it was a blast and a special treat but I'm sure it was my mom forcing us out of the house with him alone (she was a SAHM at that point) and the "but hon I've gotta work Sat morning" after working long hours during the week didn't fly. Go Mom!
Haven't all of us gone in to work or school when having a fever? Most people don't stay home until they feel like shit, not because they might be walking (crawling) germ factories.
I loved going to my dad's office. He was a computer engineer in the 80s, so there were fun parts. And lots of computer paper for coloring. I don't think we went often, and probably only for a couple hours on a saturday, but I know there were a few sick days spent sleeping on his couch. The difference is that he's a guy, so people probably thought it was awesome and family oriented instead of unprofessional.
You just reminded me. My dad was a engineering professor, and my mom was a nurse. When we had strep, or something where we had to be off school for 24 hours after antibiotics, we spent the day playing in his office. He would leave to go teach. We would color computer paper, play on the computer (this was when computers were brand new) color on his white board (amaze balls). It was like the best day ever.
Post by penguingrrl on Sept 11, 2012 7:59:55 GMT -5
I have absolutely no problem with the breastfeeding part of it, but I don't like that she brought a sick kid to class. I'm wondering why she couldn't ask a colleague to watch the kid while she taught. When DH and I were both working f/t he had a few last minute meetings he had to attend while I was at work (daycare would have exceeded either income, so he worked mostly overnights on his research while I worked days). The department admin knew what our deal was and either a good friend of ours in another research group or the dept admin would happily watch the girls for an hour so he could go to his meeting (we did not do this frequently at all but are ever grateful for that help). When I was in graduate school I saw a similar culture of comraderie and helping each other (one of my favorite profs frequently watched the other one's kids if daycare was closed or class was in the evening) I can't imagine there wasn't a single person in that dept who could watch her baby so she could run and distribute the syllabus or possibly even run a whole class.
Post by cattledogkisses on Sept 11, 2012 8:10:50 GMT -5
I don't think it was a problem that the kid was in class, or even that the kid was bf-ed in class, the problem for me is that the kid was a distraction to the students (who are paying no small amount of money to be there and learn). If the kid can sit there quietly and unobtrusively that's one thing, but once they become a disruption to the class, that's the line where it becomes not ok, IMO.
I think the people who ask secretaries or administrative support staff to care for their sick kid are assholes. They really can't say no...I mean even if you ask them, if they say no it's going to consciously or unconsciously follow them. They want to be a team player, so they truly have to say yes. Don't do it.
Yah this was my thought too. Ask another prof, sure. But don't ask a secretary or student. If they offer, fine, but if you kid has a fever at 8am, and you are trying to get to a 9am class, you probably aren't magically going to have volunteers to watch your kid unless you call and ask people. And then they can't exactly say no.
I think the people who ask secretaries or administrative support staff to care for their sick kid are assholes. They really can't say no...I mean even if you ask them, if they say no it's going to consciously or unconsciously follow them. They want to be a team player, so they truly have to say yes. Don't do it.
Yah this was my thought too. Ask another prof, sure. But don't ask a secretary or student. If they offer, fine, but if you kid has a fever at 8am, and you are trying to get to a 9am class, you probably aren't magically going to have volunteers to watch your kid unless you call and ask people. And then they can't exactly say no.
Fair point, we never would have asked anyone to watch them if they were sick, only when they were healthy. I also only lasted 3 months because working opposite each other was unsustainable with DHs career and we figured that out quickly. But there definitely are better choices than bringing a mobile baby to class.
Also, I think it's kind of indicative of how removed academics can be from 'real life' in that she thinks it's totally normal and OK to just bring your kid to work if you can't find childcare.
Kind of reminds me when I was in grad school and my advisor (who was the department head) suggested that I take a 12 week leave from my job to do an internship. I was like, uhhh what? I'm pretty sure my employer isn't going to say "oh sure, just take 3 months, do whatever you want" and also, I kind of need my income to live. He looked at me like I had two heads when I said it wouldn't be possible.
This. I was a single mom, and had backup plans to my backup plans when DS was growing up. There is no freaking way any of my employers would have been ok with my bringing in a sick kid OR missing certain days with big meetings. I don't think it was worthy of an article in the student newspaper; but bringing a sick kid to work and expecting that to not be a distraction was totally unprofessional.
And I don't feel the love for a guy doing that either. One of my employees thought it would be just dandy to watch his two children under two IN HIS CUBICLE while his wife had an appointment, and expected that everyone around him could just deal with the kid noise for a couple of hours in the interest of his family's work-life balance. Um, no.
Nobody cares what I think, but I'll toss my two cents in here anyway: this is much ado about nothing. This lady made a game time decision and while it wasn't ideal (I think ideal would have been her being able to stay home with her sick little one), nobody is scarred for life here.
Nobody cares what I think, but I'll toss my two cents in here anyway: this is much ado about nothing. This lady made a game time decision and while it wasn't ideal (I think ideal would have been her being able to stay home with her sick little one), nobody is scarred for life here.
I care what you think.
I agree that nobody is scarred for life, which is why I think its ridiculous for the paper to do an article about it.
Let's be real. We all know that if she just brought her kid to class it wouldn't be a story in he school paper. This is about NIP and "oh my godz, my prof has boooobies..."
Post by charminglife on Sept 11, 2012 9:36:15 GMT -5
Here's an update - school says she should have stayed home.
Breast-Feeding Debate Fallout September 11, 2012 - 3:00am By Scott Jaschik Late Monday, American University weighed in on the campus controversy over a professor who brought her sick baby to class, breast-fed her there and then published an essay chastising student journalists who asked her about it.
The university says that in cases like this, a faculty member should not bring a child to class. "The faculty manual requires professional conduct in the classroom at all times, including a focus on high standards for teaching and respect for students," said the administration's statement, which a spokeswoman said was based on a range of policies already in place at the university. "For the sake of the child and the public health of the campus community, when faced with the challenge of caring for a sick child in the case where backup childcare is not available, a faculty member should take earned leave and arrange for someone else to cover the class, not bring a sick child into the classroom."
The American statement stresses a variety of ways the university provides support for parents in this situation. And while the statement is about bringing a child to class, not breast-feeding, the AU statement notes that university policy provides breaks and private rooms for mothers who wish to express milk during work hours.
The campus has been debating these issues quietly since word spread that Adrienne Pine, an assistant professor of anthropology, breast-fed her sick daughter during the first class session this semester. When The Eagle, the student newspaper at the university, tried to interview Pine about what happened, she objected and wrote an essay for the liberal publication CounterPunch criticizing the student journalists. The essay named the students and included contact information that American university officials said was removed at their request.
The university's statement also criticized Pine for the way she wrote about the students in the essay.
"The university strongly disagrees with the characterization of American University students expressed in the blog post. The faculty manual outlines expectations for professional conduct, and this blog post does not reflect professional conduct," said the statement. "The blog post characterized our students in manner with which we strongly disagree, and provided students' personal contact information (which was immediately removed at the request of the university administration). Freedom of expression comes with responsibility, and expressions in fora outside of AU have the potential to affect responsibilities to students and effectiveness in the classroom."
Pine, reached by e-mail after the university released its statement, declined to comment.
Inside Higher Ed readers had strong reactions to the situation Monday, with many comments backing Pine (with several women saying they had done the same thing with their children), while others were highly critical of her.
Let's be real. We all know that if she just brought her kid to class it wouldn't be a story in he school paper. This is about NIP and "oh my godz, my prof has boooobies..."
I agree that there probably would have been a lot less hand-wringing amongst the students had there been no nursing.
Is it more unprofessional to miss the first day of class or to bring the child (not snarky, something I'm wondering too.)
For sure bringing the kid. Plus, the kid was sick enough to be excluded from daycare- I would be pissed at beingexposed to germs if I was in the class.
This is where I'm at. I nursed in public all the dayum time, but I wouldn't bring a sick child to work. Also, this isn't some sleepy newborn. A crawling infant at the front of the room is most certainly a distraction. Couldn't she at least have brought a pack n play and tossed some toys in there? Probably doesn't believe in "confinement," , but I think that would've worked a little better than free reign baby.
ETA: maybe fever wasn't discovered until she was already on campus, so she was ill-equipped.
In my city, there are childcare agencies who will provide day of emergency childcare, who will come watch your child in your home (there is a $1/hour surcharge for sick care). Solves the problem of disrupting an important workday when your kid can't go to daycare.
Even though I wouldn't have chosen this, I agree that it's not the end of the world.