Caraval - book club discussion (all are welcome to join!)

[ufcasey]

Today is the day for our eighth book club discussion! The book picked for this month was "Caraval" by Stephanie Garber

Just to help get you thinking, if you have a hard time figuring out what you want to say, there are some questions below. You definitely don't have to answer any of them!

Things to potentially consider:
1. What are your overall thoughts on the book? Did you like it? What worked? What didn't?
2. How did you feel about the setting?
3. What did you think about the "actor" characters? Did they seem real or caricatures?
4. Why do you think deaths are reversible but maiming is not for the actors?
5. What do you think is the backstory of Tella and Scarlett's mom?
6. How did you feel about Scarlett's relationships with her sister and her father?
7. How did you feel about Julian and his relationship with his brother?
8. Was the Count a good person or a bad person?

All thoughts and opinions are welcome!

[ufcasey]

Tagging people who seem to have read the book:
Nonny , cole , monkeyfeet , aurora , travella , sunbutter , bex , mrspez07

[bex]

1) I liked it okay. It reminded me of a weaker Night Circus - when I read NC, I could taste the hot chocolate. Here, not so much. It was a fast read and enjoyable, but I'm not sure that I actually liked it overall or that I would recommend it as a "good book."

I just don't know about any of it. I felt like it was trying to be deep and mysterious with the backstory on the mom, but it fell flat. I also don't like books where you think one thing is happening and at the end its like "kidding!!! that didn't happen at all!" It takes a really good writer to be able to pull that off without the reader feeling cheated, and Garber is not that "really good writer."

I thought Tella seemed like a shallow and selfish person, and it felt like Garber thought she was too but had to give her some redeeming qualities so that people didn't hate her and understood Scarlett's love for her.

I also just didn't understand the premise. So its this fake world, where bad things can happen, and you cant get sucked in, but you can do things like lose days of your life (which was a very dark story line), and you have to find clues to "win" but you don't know what exactly you are winning.  I mean I understood it enough to go along with the book, but I definitely thought there were holes to it.  And then the whole thing was some elaborate scheme between Tella and Legend to get the sisters off the island?

How did their father and the count get to the island? if you have to have an invitation, how did they have one? did I miss that?

[charlatti]

I liked it but it wasn't quite fully developed for me. And apparently it didn't stick with me at all -- I can barely remember most of the details. The concept was interesting but it just didn't feel like it was complete, like the basics were there but so much was not quite filled in.

[bex]

Aug 31, 2017 13:36:41 GMT -5 charlatti said:

I liked it but it wasn't quite fully developed for me. And apparently it didn't stick with me at all -- I can barely remember most of the details. The concept was interesting but it just didn't feel like it was complete, like the basics were there but so much was not quite filled in.

I just finished it last week - maybe Thursday? - and I am having trouble remembering parts of it.

[aurora]

I finished it over a week ago so had totally forgotten! Will come back in here after next set of meetings.

[sunbutter]

So this is my first discussion. Hope you don't mind if I jump in.

I was not a fan of this book. It was an easy read but I was glad when it was over because I wanted to start something else. I don't read much YA - is this representative of most?
It just felt very immature to me. I wrote a story in fourth grade about a girl who wanted a Cabbage patch doll for her birthday and was counting down the days until. The chapters were literally, On Tuesday, there were four more days until her birthday. On Wednesday, there were three more days until her birthday. While reading Caraval, my mind kept wandering back to this dark period in my life, LOL.
I also tend to prefer books where I can relate to at least one character in some way or become invested enough in one character to care what happens in the end. I just did not have this with Caraval.
I feel like some of the suggested questions are actually giving the book too much credit. It just didn't seem that deep to me. Random fantasy without a lot of underlying meaning. Some of the concepts were super dark but just didn't seem to elicit appropriate emotion from me - like abuse, murder, etc..
And I agree with PP, there were just a ton of gaps that were at first confusing but then expected and annoying.

I promise I am not usually this negative - I just did not connect to this book.

[travella]

I gave the book two stars. I feel like I was being generous. I have read some YA/fantasy books that have worked for me, but not many. This was one that just didn't work.

My main issue with the book was the lack of character development. All the characters, even the main characters, were forgettable. I had to go back to my notes to even recall what happened in the book. The setting also didn't work for me. I couldn't see how the place could work in my head, which added to the difficulty of getting into this story.

[bex]

Also just to say - we were clearly supposed to have a crush on Julian. But.....was he good or bad? Did he really help her all that much? What was his motivation - guilt over Rosa, love for Scarlett, hatred of Legend, etc.

There was just little motivation for the characters besides Scarlett, and even her motivation felt a little forced.

[bex]

Aug 31, 2017 18:39:37 GMT -5 sunbutter said:

So this is my first discussion. Hope you don't mind if I jump in.

I was not a fan of this book. It was an easy read but I was glad when it was over because I wanted to start something else. I don't read much YA - is this representative of most?
It just felt very immature to me. I wrote a story in fourth grade about a girl who wanted a Cabbage patch doll for her birthday and was counting down the days until. The chapters were literally, On Tuesday, there were four more days until her birthday. On Wednesday, there were three more days until her birthday. While reading Caraval, my mind kept wandering back to this dark period in my life, LOL.
I also tend to prefer books where I can relate to at least one character in some way or become invested enough in one character to care what happens in the end. I just did not have this with Caraval.
I feel like some of the suggested questions are actually giving the book too much credit. It just didn't seem that deep to me. Random fantasy without a lot of underlying meaning. Some of the concepts were super dark but just didn't seem to elicit appropriate emotion from me - like abuse, murder, etc..
And I agree with PP, there were just a ton of gaps that were at first confusing but then expected and annoying.

I promise I am not usually this negative - I just did not connect to this book.

No! Not all YA is like this. Yes the writing style is usually simpler and i feel like the series tend to fall flat but the initial books can be good (like Divergent was really good, allegiant was not). I like them for quicker reads.

[Nonny]

I was not a fan of this book, and comparing it to The Night Circus is a huge insult and disservice to The Night Circus. 

None of the characters choices made sense, none of the magic makes sense, and the entire ending doesn't make sense. 

1.  Tella was kind of an awful person; Scarlett was wishy-washy and disregarded solid advice at every turn; the dad was a psychopath for no apparent reason; and Julian was a liar who had no reason to fall in love* with Scarlett like he did.  *I have zero patience for him or Scarlett falling in stary-eyed luuuurrrrve (or any characters who do this in any book).  They are both idiots.

2.  If your "magic" is strong enough to resurrect a person whose skull has been caved in from a fall, or lungs are punctured from a stab wound, it should also be strong enough to take care of a minor facial wound without leaving a damn scar.  FFS.

3.  You can't have a "competition" and only have the side characters care about winning in one minor scene, and then basically have them just disappear and no longer give a shit once they've ransacked a single room.  There was no sense of urgency/drama/climax that Scarlett might not win because some other contestant was fast on her heels, she just bumblefucked her way around this giant city until she "won" and then everyone disappeared.  Where was the outrage among the other guests that the game was clearly rigged?  Why did her dad and fiancé just take everything at face value and peace out when clearly nothing should have been taken at face value?

The only reason I didn't rate it one star was because it was a super easy read skim while I was violently ill in the middle of the night.

[Nonny]

Aug 31, 2017 18:39:37 GMT -5 sunbutter said:

So this is my first discussion. Hope you don't mind if I jump in.

I was not a fan of this book. It was an easy read but I was glad when it was over because I wanted to start something else. I don't read much YA - is this representative of most? 


I promise I am not usually this negative - I just did not connect to this book.

All are welcome! And don't worry about being negative if you don't like a book. ufcasey can attest that I'm tough critic and that I write some harsh reviews on Goodreads.  LOL! 

I wouldn't say this is representative of most YA.  Harry Potter, The Hunger Games, The Absolutely True Diary of a Part-Time Indian, The Perks of Being a Wallflower, Ender's Game, Ready Player One, and so on are all various levels of YA, and Orson Scott Card being a giant shitpig aside, all have good stories and better writing. 

I think the problem with this book is that they started with this kind of cool idea - a mysterious magical city with a week long interactive escape room game and a cool prize - and butchered it with unlikable characters and inconsistent magical rules. 

[mrspez07]

I thought that the first 1/3 of the book was magical and pretty detailed and I could really visualize this magical world (the clock shop, the sparkling snow, the view from the balconies). Then I felt like around the time everyone went through Tella's room it devolved into a more unorganized narrative that was harder to track the places she was going and what she was doing. Was that because she was losing her mind (Scarlett) or just plain bad writing?
I wonder if the author had added more descriptive text and additional detail in the last parts of the book (and continued character development) it would have helped, maybe there was editing or a time crunch or something (cut down to so many pages). Maybe her initial story/pitch was for that first 1/3 of the book and the rest of the story wasn't well thought out, even in her own head. This world had the potential to be amazing, and dark and beautiful but needed more descriptive text.
I think it had a lot of potential, was easy to read, but the end left me disappointed.

[sunbutter]

Aug 31, 2017 20:26:05 GMT -5 bex said:

Also just to say - we were clearly supposed to have a crush on Julian. But.....was he good or bad? Did he really help her all that much? What was his motivation - guilt over Rosa, love for Scarlett, hatred of Legend, etc.

There was just little motivation for the characters besides Scarlett, and even her motivation felt a little forced.

I would have had a bigger crush on Julian had he not fell in love with Scarlett.

[aurora]

I listened to this as an audiobook, which may have impacted some of my impressions. (In general, I pay closer attention to paper/Kindle books than audiobooks.)

I overall did not love the book, though there were some parts that were still enjoyable. The magical world was fun, and I liked the idea of Scarlett sending letter after letter trying to get Caraval to visit. For a long time I thought Julian was her fiance in disguise, maybe doing a test run to see what his wife-to-be was like. I then thought he was Master Legend. He definitely wasn't just who he said he was.

I'm trying to put my finger on it, but it did feel to me like the magic started off reasonably consistent, but toward the end it was less and less likely to follow its own rules, which made it less believable. (This is an argument I've heard about the GOT TV show, as well, which may be why it was on my mind.) Something about the deaths at the end, while deaths were previously serious/permanent, and then aren't, and what are the rules for this major wish prize really about anyway?

I did appreciate Scarlett and her sister getting away from their father, who sounded like a miserable person. As well, I kept expecting their missing mother to play a bigger role.

[aurora]

So, I just realized that this is the first book in a planned trilogy. OK, the weirdness at the ending makes a lot more sense now.

[aurora]

A few thoughts about some of the discussion questions:

3. What did you think about the "actor" characters? Did they seem real or caricatures?
>> caricatures, definitely, but that was right because Scarlett always knew she was in some sort of game

4. Why do you think deaths are reversible but maiming is not for the actors?
>> this is a weird "magic not following its own rules" point for me. I didn't like it.

5. What do you think is the backstory of Tella and Scarlett's mom?
>> I think she was forced to flee an abusive husband. I'm not sure why she left her daughters behind, but now that I know this is just the first book in a series I'm sure Garber will explain it later!

[aurora]

Aug 31, 2017 14:17:28 GMT -5 bex said:

Aug 31, 2017 13:36:41 GMT -5 charlatti said:

I liked it but it wasn't quite fully developed for me. And apparently it didn't stick with me at all -- I can barely remember most of the details. The concept was interesting but it just didn't feel like it was complete, like the basics were there but so much was not quite filled in.

I just finished it last week - maybe Thursday? - and I am having trouble remembering parts of it.

I finished it a few weeks ago and had to review a few things at www.bookseriesrecaps.com/what-happened-in-caraval/ before posting my comments here.

[aurora]

Aug 31, 2017 18:39:37 GMT -5 sunbutter said:

So this is my first discussion. Hope you don't mind if I jump in.

I was not a fan of this book. It was an easy read but I was glad when it was over because I wanted to start something else. I don't read much YA - is this representative of most?
It just felt very immature to me. I wrote a story in fourth grade about a girl who wanted a Cabbage patch doll for her birthday and was counting down the days until. The chapters were literally, On Tuesday, there were four more days until her birthday. On Wednesday, there were three more days until her birthday. While reading Caraval, my mind kept wandering back to this dark period in my life, LOL.
I also tend to prefer books where I can relate to at least one character in some way or become invested enough in one character to care what happens in the end. I just did not have this with Caraval.
I feel like some of the suggested questions are actually giving the book too much credit. It just didn't seem that deep to me. Random fantasy without a lot of underlying meaning. Some of the concepts were super dark but just didn't seem to elicit appropriate emotion from me - like abuse, murder, etc..
And I agree with PP, there were just a ton of gaps that were at first confusing but then expected and annoying.

I promise I am not usually this negative - I just did not connect to this book.

I'm like this, too. I can recognize a book for great writing (not how I'd categorize Caraval, but in general) even if I don't like any of the characters. But, I definitely do not enjoy the book as much as when I can really appreciate at least one character.

Welcome to book club! No worries about not liking this book. We've been picking them from popular lists (and then with a board vote from those lists), and we haven't ended up liking all of them.

[aurora]

Aug 31, 2017 21:00:51 GMT -5 Nonny said:

Aug 31, 2017 18:39:37 GMT -5 sunbutter said:

So this is my first discussion. Hope you don't mind if I jump in.

I was not a fan of this book. It was an easy read but I was glad when it was over because I wanted to start something else. I don't read much YA - is this representative of most? 


I promise I am not usually this negative - I just did not connect to this book.

All are welcome! And don't worry about being negative if you don't like a book. ufcasey can attest that I'm tough critic and that I write some harsh reviews on Goodreads.  LOL! 

I wouldn't say this is representative of most YA.  Harry Potter, The Hunger Games, The Absolutely True Diary of a Part-Time Indian, The Perks of Being a Wallflower, Ender's Game, Ready Player One, and so on are all various levels of YA, and Orson Scott Card being a giant shitpig aside, all have good stories and better writing. 

I think the problem with this book is that they started with this kind of cool idea - a mysterious magical city with a week long interactive escape room game and a cool prize - and butchered it with unlikable characters and inconsistent magical rules. 

You said this better than I could.

Thinking further on sunbutter's question about YA, I have to admit that the love triangle in The Hunger Games really bugged me, but at the same time I agree it was a much better YA series, and I think that's largely because there was some character development that made sense. Without too many spoilers, Katniss was a flawed character who still had some very likeable traits (e.g., her love for her sister), but she and the other key characters did evolve as they grew and experienced the horrors in the series. It was also "likeable" because it all felt like it could actually happen (though of course it's dystopian and we don't want it to happen).

Harry Potter is an interesting test case because it's an exceptionally well done series but the first couple of books aren't actually fabulous in and of themselves, just fine/solid starts to the series.

[aurora]

Aug 31, 2017 22:03:53 GMT -5 mrspez07 said:

I thought that the first 1/3 of the book was magical and pretty detailed and I could really visualize this magical world (the clock shop, the sparkling snow, the view from the balconies). Then I felt like around the time everyone went through Tella's room it devolved into a more unorganized narrative that was harder to track the places she was going and what she was doing. Was that because she was losing her mind (Scarlett) or just plain bad writing?
I wonder if the author had added more descriptive text and additional detail in the last parts of the book (and continued character development) it would have helped, maybe there was editing or a time crunch or something (cut down to so many pages). Maybe her initial story/pitch was for that first 1/3 of the book and the rest of the story wasn't well thought out, even in her own head. This world had the potential to be amazing, and dark and beautiful but needed more descriptive text.
I think it had a lot of potential, was easy to read, but the end left me disappointed.

I feel like if you have to ask it was bad writing.

Example: Shutter Island makes it very clear that the reader is supposed to be asking if the character is losing his mind, and that's the mystery that engages the reader through the book.

[sunbutter]

Nonny and aurora - I did enjoy The Hunger Games and the first four HP very much. So there is hope for me and YA!

[aurora]

Sept 1, 2017 13:11:58 GMT -5 sunbutter said:

Nonny and aurora - I did enjoy The Hunger Games and the first four HP very much. So there is hope for me and YA!

To be honest, I don't like many YA books/series, either. But, there are some gems.

[monkeyfeet]

So, I'm late to the party and get what everyone is saying, but I liked Scarlett and Julian. I'm hoping Julian is good! I enjoyed this, maybe because it was a quick and easy read. I am really curious about the mom. I agree w/ Aurora that she left an abusive marriage, but how could you leave your kids to face it?! I have already added the second to my TBR list because I do want to know how it ends!

[abs]

Sorry I am late to this discussion, it has been a crazy week!!

So I read this book earlier this year. At the time I enjoyed it but now I literally cannot remember a single detail about it. Probably not a sign of a great book. I do remember that I enjoyed the first half much more than the second half. It's like she set up this cool mysterious world and then didn't know what to do with it. By the end she had just lost me. I didn't realize this would be a trilogy--maybe some of my unanswered questions will be answered!

[ufcasey]

Sorry I am so late! I have a legitimate excuse though - my father had heart surgery on Tuesday and so I was at the hospital on Wednesday, remembered to put this discussion post up on Thursday but then was too busy with wrapping things up at work (Thursday was my last day - I start a new job next week!), and then yesterday I spent all day packing the last things from my old house and cleaning it because our closing is today. *whew*

So, getting back to this book - I really should objectively dislike this book because it makes approximately zero sense when you think about it too much, most of the characters are flat, and the setting seems kind of weird, but nonetheless I liked it. Maybe the fact that I listened to it as an audiobook while travelling to and from my hometown this week helped me enjoy it more because it passed the time for me? I don't know.

Things I liked:
Scarlett and Tella's father - a guy who would drown someone only because they tried to help his daughters (unsuccessfully) escape, is one messed up person! He was truly scary to me.
The mystery behind Legend - was a he a good guy? a bad guy? what happened with Rosa? what happened with Tella's mom? Legend even now is still a mystery and that makes me want to read the next book just to find out more about him
The 'currency' in the game - I liked the idea of telling the last lie you told, your greatest fear, your greatest desire, borrowing your voice for an hour, etc all as a way for paying for things. Taking two days of your life now, as opposed to the end of your life, was super creepy, but in a good way to me.
A dress that changes without your input - her dress becoming a nightie without her knowing it made me laugh, how embarrassing!
The tattoo guy - it reminded me a little bit of the book 'The Illustrated Man' (which I highly recommend reading by the way)

Things I didn't like
Magic just doesn't make sense - the actors can die but come back to life (Julian, Dante), but Tella would have died unless Scarlett loved her enough to make her somehow not die? Julian can come back to life but can't heal the cut on his face? How does Dante look then since his hand was chopped off or whatever?
The game doesn't make sense - so this was all a ruse set up by Tella and Legend to convince their father that Tella would be dead and therefore he wouldn't have any leverage to make Scarlett do anything he wants? So everyone else really had zero chance of winning the game? I mean, who else would have been able to pick up that post card? And the rest of the 'clues' were never clues in that they didn't really lead her to finding Tella.
Julian in the closet during Scarlett's confrontation with her fiance - it just didn't make sense that he got into the room before them, but then didn't do anything to help her. Like, what?
Instalove - I'm never a fan of it and this book is no exception

So yeah, the more I think about it, the less I like it. Oh well. It did keep me entertained enough for my long drives!

[aurora]

ufcasey, I hope your dad is recovering well from surgery! And congratulations on your new job.

[Nonny]

aurora, monkeyfeet, did Paloma leave an abusive marriage though? That was my initial thought as well, but at some point Scarlett was thinking back to when her mom was still around and it seemed like her dad was distant but normal before their mom left, and only become an unhinged, murderous psychopath after Paloma disappeared.

[aurora]

Sept 3, 2017 15:28:27 GMT -5 Nonny said:

aurora, monkeyfeet, did Paloma leave an abusive marriage though? That was my initial thought as well, but at some point Scarlett was thinking back to when her mom was still around and it seemed like her dad was distant but normal before their mom left, and only become an unhinged, murderous psychopath after Paloma disappeared.

I wondered if that was because Mom was shielding her children from the worst of his rages and bearing the brunt herself. I also wasn't convinced she left voluntarily; I had wondered if he killed her. But, if we're going to see her in the nest book probably not.

[mrspez07]

ufcasey
All of he things you note as liking had me nodding along. I wish she'd spent more time with the fanciful things about the world, those were some of the best things about the book.