The Tea Girl of Hummingbird Lane - Book Club discussion

[minzy]

Anyone up for discussing The Tea Girl of Hummingbird Lane? 

Some questions to get us started from Lisa See's website (answer any or none):

1. Discuss the significance of the epigraph. The Book of Songs is the oldest extant collection of Chinese poetry, written between the 7th and 11th centuries B.C.; what kind of resonance does it have today?

2. The Tea Girl of Hummingbird Lane begins with the Akha aphorism, “No coincidence, no story.” What are the major coincidences in the story? Are they believable? How important are they in influencing your reaction to the novel as a whole?

3. Perhaps the most shocking moment in the novel comes with the birth of the twins and what happens to them. A-ma explains that “only animals, demons, and spirits give birth to litters. If a sow gives birth to one piglet, then both must be killed at once. If a dog gives birth to one puppy, then they too must be killed immediately.” The traditions surrounding twins are very harsh, to say the least, but were you able to understand what happens to them within the context of Akha culture? How does this moment change Li-yan’s view of Akha Law, and what are the consequences? Are there any aspects of the Akha culture that you admire?

4. What is Li-yan’s first reaction when she sees her land? Why does A-ma believe the tea garden is so important? Why does A-ma believe that the trees are sacred? What is the significance of the mother tree?

5. San-pa and Li-yan’s relationship ends tragically and causes them both great pain. Is what happens between them fate, or is it bad luck? In your opinion, does their community’s negativity about their union shape the outcome of their marriage? Does his death change your feelings about him?

6. Can the experience Li-yan’s village has with selling Pu’er be thought of as a microcosm for globalization? Why or why not? Are all the changes to the village positive? Given all we hear about China being a global economic superpower, were you surprised that the novel starts in 1988?

7. As a midwife, A-ma occupies a position of relative power on the mountain, although as “first among women” she still comes after every man. Can such a traditional role for women be truly empowering? In the context of their society, what are the limits and expanse of A-ma’s power?

8. This novel uses a number of devices to tell Haley’s story, including letters, a transcript of a therapy session, and homework assignments. It isn’t until the final chapter, however, that you hear Haley in her own pure voice and see the world entirely from her point of view. Did this style of storytelling enrich your experience of the narrative? Did it make you more curious about Haley?

9. In the chapter transcribing a group therapy session for Chinese-American adoptees that Haley attends, many of the patients have mixed feelings about their adoptive and birth parents. Were you surprised by their anger? Did reading this novel affect your feelings about transnational adoption?

10. The three most significant mother-daughter relationships in the novel are those between A-ma and Li-yan, Constance and Haley, and Li-yan and Haley. The connection between Li-yan and Haley, although arguably the emotional center of the novel, exists despite the absence of a relationship: though the two women think a great deal about each other, they do not meet until the very end of the story. How does this relationship in absence compare to the real-life relationships between A-ma and Li-yan and Constance and Haley?

11. What are the formal and informal ways that Li-yan is educated? How are they different from how her family was educated? What role does Teacher Zhang play in Li-yan’s life and how does it change over the years? How important in education in Haley’s life?

12. Li-yan is much older and more experienced when she meets Jin than she was when she fell in love with San-pa. How are the two men different? What do you think Li-yan learns from her first marriage?

13. Almost everyone in the novel has a secret: Li-yan, A-ma, San-pa, Mr. Huang, Deh-ja, Ci-teh, Teacher Zhang, Mrs. Chang, and Jin. How do those secrets impact each character? How are those secrets revealed and what are the results, particularly for Li-yan and Ci-teh’s relationship? The only person who doesn’t have a secret of major significance is Haley. What does that say about her?

14. When Li-yan returns to her village to confront Ci-teh, the ruma tells the women that Li-yan is still Akha even though she has a new home and lifestyle. How do questions of identity, especially as they relate to Li-yan’s status as an ethnic minority, play into the events of the novel? How does Li-yan’s identity shift? Do her nicknames, especially her American nickname, inform this shift?

15. By the time Li-yan and Haley meet, each has been searching for the other for many years. However, Haley already has a family and an adoptive mother. Is there room for Haley to have two mothers? How do you think Li-yan and Haley will relate to each other—as mother and child, or will their roles be something slightly different? What do you suppose Haley and Li-yan will talk about first?

[minzy]

So... I didn't love this one.  I gave it 3.5 stars.  I had a tough time getting into it at first, and feel like there was almost too much happening in this book.  I was really disgusted by the killing of the twins (I'm a twin) and had a tough time making sense of many other aspects of the Akha culture as presented.  I disliked the complete disregard for girls, including Ci-teh's reminder to Li-yan to "remember always that you are only a hen."  

I felt bombarded with the idea of "no coincidence, no story" and would argue that too much coincidence made a weakened story.  The multiple reappearances of Deh-ja (including her eventually living with Jin and Li-yan, indefinitely), the constant reminder of the yellow strings in the tea cake, the two faces of Ci-teh (as friend and then foe, repeated over and over), that no one else would have ever discovered the maternal lineage tree, that Haley is so specifically drawn to Pu'er tea and also that she somehow partners off with Sean, who frequented her biological mother's village for an eastern cure to his childhood cancer... just seemed incredible.  I also found it hard to believe that, given her background, Li-yan would assimilate seamlessly into city life, then western culture, basically an egalitarian second marriage (with a multimillionaire husband, no less), and then become an accomplished businesswoman in her own right.  Haley's deep research interest into the tea economy in light of global warming seemed to go off on a bit of a tangent, but that was actually probably the part with which I was most comfortable! 

Parts of it reminded me of Pachinko (poverty, teen pregnancy, fleeing homeland, subsequent business success). 

I will say, reading this made me want to drink tea.  (Not Pu'er but iced strawberry acai from Starbucks.  )  Curious to see what the rest of you think!

[mrspez07]

I struggled to get into this book, and even put it down to read something else. I’m glad I came back to it, the story definitely picked up. I do agree there was a lot going on but I felt the story-telling seemed to improve or pick up the pace mid-way through the book. Haley finding her was pretty predictable and seemed a bit crammed in at the end with a jump to her project on tea and then Boom, she’s there.

I am a big tea drinker and yet I know very little about how it’s made and where it comes from. I did do additional tea research after I read this.

I also kept having to remind myself that the development of the tea market and demand for tea in China wasn’t a long time ago historical event but something so recent. The story definitely frames it as a historical fiction narrative, and part of that may be the before and after of China’s recent growth is almost like our industrial revolution. There’s the “ol’ days” and modern times.

[abs]

I read this and mostly liked it. I thought the beginning was more interesting than the end though. The process of making tea was interesting and I loved the relationship between Li-yan and her mom. The middle/ending was not great. I was sick of having coincidences shoved in my face.

I can see the comparison to Panchinko. I didn't finish that one.

[ufcasey]

Tagging people who may have read this book:
rainbowchip, ally, pantsparty, abs, rootbeerfloat, aurora, hurricanedrunk

[ufcasey]

Thanks minzy !! I completely thought yesterday was Tuesday - whoops!

So, um, this book was a LOT about tea. Seeing as I don't like tea, don't drink tea, and generally don't care about tea this book put me off a little with it's tea-ness. Yes, I realize it was in the title of the book, but still! Ignoring that, there were other disturbing things to the story that my sensibilities didn't jive with, specifically the murder of twins, the right for a husband to sell a wife off as a slave and generally abuse her should he want to, the whole patriarchy society in general, all that stuff. Then throw in some really unbelievable aspects like that a handsome super rich man would wait until his mom could find him a wife and all the coincidences with Haley and Deh-ja. Oh and I really disliked Haley's story in general - it felt very heavy handed to me and that real teenagers/pre-teens wouldn't talk that way in a group therapy session with a bunch of strangers. It felt really harsh against international adoption in general as if adoptive parents who don't come from the same culture as their adoptive children are destined to not understand their children fully, that their children will be missing out on vital heritage upbringing, and society will place burdens on these children because their parents didn't bring them up in the culture that matches their skin tone. Those are valid realities to a certain extent, don't get me wrong, but we pretty much see nothing of Haley's life that doesn't revolve around issues with her ethnic/cultural heritage. I would have liked for the author to have shown some more positive moments in Haley's life with her parents in America.

All that makes it sound like I really didn't like this book, but I actually did. I thought that Li-yan's decision to give up her daughter to the orphanage, her decision to leave her husband, her ability to take the education and opportunities she was given and be able to make herself a successful business woman, and her ability to marry a modern man but still keep to some of her Akha traditions, were all really interesting. But for me the most interesting person was actually Li-yan's mother. She broke very strong traditions by helping her daughter give birth and give the child away instead of killing it (unlike what she did with the twins), of helping heal people with tea while still protecting her daughter's tea tree grove, and then giving up the secret of that grove when confronted with her daughter's explanation that modern technology that would have made it inevitable for others to find it. This book also brought to light my complete ignorance of how many ethnic groups are in China (I vaguely saw the representation of it at the Olympics, but didn't give it much thought other than to think it was something like the difference between southerners/midwest/northerners here in America. So yeah, completely wrong on that account). It also made me think about how much my own values are based on how I was raised and how different I would be if I was just born in another part of the country or in another country - how much is innately myself versus family/cultural upbringing. I definitely have not read a book like this before and I see now that I need to seek out more international oriented books, both fiction and non-fiction.

[aurora]

Time flies - I thought it would feel like forever from when I finished the book a couple of weeks ago and the discussion, and then I couldn't believe it when I saw ufcasey's tag (thanks!).

My overall impression is that I liked the book but it is obviously very complicated. I thought Li-yan was a compelling character in that she had realistic flaws but was still likeable, suffered hardships but kept a drive to improve her life, and appeared to do a reasonable job melding her two very different lives in an authentic way. Of course I wanted her to find Haley in the end, but it was also the least authentic-feeling part of the book, IMO (what are the chances???).

I appreciated the switching back and forth between Haley and Li-yan, and the insights into the turmoil Haley and other adoptees in her group felt at times when trying to understand their histories and feel a sense of belonging.

[aurora]

Thoughts about a couple of the questions:

7. As a midwife, A-ma occupies a position of relative power on the mountain, although as “first among women” she still comes after every man. Can such a traditional role for women be truly empowering? In the context of their society, what are the limits and expanse of A-ma’s power?

I am always interested in gender dynamics, and although the feminist in me has a strong reaction to anything other than equality, it's always interesting to read the ways in which women in patriarchal societies grow and maintain more subtle forms of power. The secrecy around A-ma's tea garden definitely gives her an edge that she uses to support things that are important to her, especially Li-yan's escape to leave Haley for adoption rather than death.

8. This novel uses a number of devices to tell Haley’s story, including letters, a transcript of a therapy session, and homework assignments. It isn’t until the final chapter, however, that you hear Haley in her own pure voice and see the world entirely from her point of view. Did this style of storytelling enrich your experience of the narrative? Did it make you more curious about Haley?

I was listening on audiobook so I think maybe these devices stood out less than they might have in the written form, but I did enjoy them, especially the email exchanges when she was setting up her research plans. I actually didn't realize that it wasn't until the final chapter that we heard her "pure voice."

[aurora]

Apr 25, 2018 16:15:50 GMT -5 minzy said:

...
I felt bombarded with the idea of "no coincidence, no story" and would argue that too much coincidence made a weakened story.  The multiple reappearances of Deh-ja (including her eventually living with Jin and Li-yan, indefinitely), the constant reminder of the yellow strings in the tea cake, the two faces of Ci-teh (as friend and then foe, repeated over and over), that no one else would have ever discovered the maternal lineage tree, that Haley is so specifically drawn to Pu'er tea and also that she somehow partners off with Sean, who frequented her biological mother's village for an eastern cure to his childhood cancer... just seemed incredible.  I also found it hard to believe that, given her background, Li-yan would assimilate seamlessly into city life, then western culture, basically an egalitarian second marriage (with a multimillionaire husband, no less), and then become an accomplished businesswoman in her own right.  Haley's deep research interest into the tea economy in light of global warming seemed to go off on a bit of a tangent, but that was actually probably the part with which I was most comfortable! 

...

Besides the "random" coincidence of Haley finding A-ma (and thus Li-yan), for some reason her second husband being a multi-millionaire felt like the second-most-unrealistic part of the story to me. Maybe it's just jealousy.

I thought Haley's interest in tea was pretty understandable given that the only connection she knew of to her birth mother was a tea cake. I can definitely imagine that driving a lot of her intellectual curiosity.

[aurora]

Apr 25, 2018 21:31:53 GMT -5 mrspez07 said:

I struggled to get into this book, and even put it down to read something else. I’m glad I came back to it, the story definitely picked up. I do agree there was a lot going on but I felt the story-telling seemed to improve or pick up the pace mid-way through the book. Haley finding her was pretty predictable and seemed a bit crammed in at the end with a jump to her project on tea and then Boom, she’s there.

I am a big tea drinker and yet I know very little about how it’s made and where it comes from. I did do additional tea research after I read this.

I also kept having to remind myself that the development of the tea market and demand for tea in China wasn’t a long time ago historical event but something so recent. The story definitely frames it as a historical fiction narrative, and part of that may be the before and after of China’s recent growth is almost like our industrial revolution. There’s the “ol’ days” and modern times.

Yes - the modernity of the book was jarring at times, especially with respect to things like the killing of the twins early on and then you realize it wasn't that long ago.

[aurora]

Apr 26, 2018 9:38:44 GMT -5 ufcasey said:

Thanks minzy !! I completely thought yesterday was Tuesday - whoops!

So, um, this book was a LOT about tea. Seeing as I don't like tea, don't drink tea, and generally don't care about tea this book put me off a little with it's tea-ness. Yes, I realize it was in the title of the book, but still! Ignoring that, there were other disturbing things to the story that my sensibilities didn't jive with, specifically the murder of twins, the right for a husband to sell a wife off as a slave and generally abuse her should he want to, the whole patriarchy society in general, all that stuff. Then throw in some really unbelievable aspects like that a handsome super rich man would wait until his mom could find him a wife and all the coincidences with Haley and Deh-ja. Oh and I really disliked Haley's story in general - it felt very heavy handed to me and that real teenagers/pre-teens wouldn't talk that way in a group therapy session with a bunch of strangers. It felt really harsh against international adoption in general as if adoptive parents who don't come from the same culture as their adoptive children are destined to not understand their children fully, that their children will be missing out on vital heritage upbringing, and society will place burdens on these children because their parents didn't bring them up in the culture that matches their skin tone. Those are valid realities to a certain extent, don't get me wrong, but we pretty much see nothing of Haley's life that doesn't revolve around issues with her ethnic/cultural heritage. I would have liked for the author to have shown some more positive moments in Haley's life with her parents in America.
...

I actually appreciated these parts. Adoption can cause emotional hurdles even when the parents and children are the same race, and I thought Lisa See did a good job helping her readers to understand some of these struggles. I think it's true to say that "adoptive parents who don't come from the same culture as their adoptive children are destined to not understand their children fully." I mean, even most biological parents probably don't understand their children fully by the time the children reach adulthood, but race/ethnicity do impact life experiences, and parents can be loving and understanding and do all the research in the world and still not have those life experiences themselves. Don't get me wrong: I'm not saying adoption is bad, but it's definitely not simple.

I thought the fact that Haley was showing very strong signs of (American-style) success as a university researcher was evidence that her adoptive parents did right by her in many ways.

[rainbowchip]

Sorry this is so all over the place.

I really disliked the women and girls being seen as less than. And I was very surprised that was happening as recently as 1988. I read something (I can't remember the book) about similar practices but it was set in the 30s or 40s.

I also question what can be called historical fiction. It seems too recent for me but I don't know what the arbitrary cut off year would be.

The parts about making tea and tasting tea bored me. I like tea but I can't say I was ever curious about the process to make it beyond putting a tea bag in a cup of hot water.

I was a little surprised at the group of adopted girls. I guess I've only ever seen two groups of adoptees. One group where they love their adopted family so much for giving them a life they never could have had and are thankful to their bio parents for giving them up. And those who resent their bio parents for not loving them enough to keep them.
But this has shown that there is a middle ground and you can feel all of those things and more as an adopted child which totally makes sense.

I also felt like the reunion at the end was rushed. I would have liked more of that and how everyone reacted.

[rootbeerfloat]

I really enjoyed this book. I've read almost all of Lisa See's books, which are all historical fiction related to Chinese culture. The minimized role/treatment of women is a common theme, so I was not put off by that. Falling in love with a loser and having to deal with (and eventually triumph over) the consequences of that is also a common theme lol.

I didn't find all the detail about tea terribly interesting, but I liked learning about the Akha - especially as you saw Haley grow up and not appear "typically" Chinese. The effects of the village being discovered and modernized in a limited way was also interesting to me; more education and status for women, but at the expense of their land and tradition.

I thought the letters and emails were a good way to describe Haley's childhood, but she felt less developed to me than her mother or grandmother. That said, I thought the adoption themes were realistic. My (not-white) mom was adopted by white parents (way before the 80s, obviously), and she definitely has some issues related to that. I was also intrigued by her future MIL and all the other mothers of sons having to matchmake as a result of China's one-child policy, which I'm sure actually happens these days.

[travella]

This book took a long time to get into, but I enjoyed it in the end. I only gave it four stars because the reunion with Haley was too rushed and didn't feel genuine. It took away from the story.

I found Haley's interest in pu'er tea completely credible. The only thing linking her to her biological family was the very distinct tea cake that was left with her as a baby. I also liked the adoption storyline and felt that it was probably pretty accurate.

Even though I don't like tea and don't know much about tea, I really enjoyed the story of the relationships, the modernization of rural cultures, and seeing the cultural differences. Overall, a great book with a less than stellar ending.

[ally]

So, I liked the book and found it to be an enjoyable read. I have not read other books by Lisa See and I need to look into them.





2. The Tea Girl of Hummingbird Lane begins with the Akha aphorism, “No coincidence, no story.” What are the major coincidences in the story? Are they believable? How important are they in influencing your reaction to the novel as a whole?



It did give some sense of where things were going to go. Mr. Huang having such a significant role in Li-yan’s life and then his son falling in love with her daughter - a bit predictable. And yet, I was happy Sean met, and fell in love with, Haley.



3. Perhaps the most shocking moment in the novel comes with the birth of the twins and what happens to them. How does this moment change Li-yan’s view of Akha Law, and what are the consequences? Are there any aspects of the Akha culture that you admire?



I think it is what had her focus on education and leaving the village. Her horror at killing the twins allowed her to go outside of Akha tradition and not follow her parents’ wishes.



5. San-pa and Li-yan’s relationship ends tragically and causes them both great pain. Is what happens between them fate, or is it bad luck? Does his death change your feelings about him?



He kind of sucked as a character – so weak and dangerous to Li-yan. That he died protecting her was honorable, but his addiction and lies were why they were there, so no, my feelings did not change much.



6. Given all we hear about China being a global economic superpower, were you surprised that the novel starts in 1988?



To echo others, I am surprised at this being labeled historical fiction. Also, with such a patriarchal society with such minimal modernization, I was (often) surprised that is was set in the 80’s.



7. As a midwife, A-ma occupies a position of relative power on the mountain, although as “first among women” she still comes after every man. Can such a traditional role for women be truly empowering? In the context of their society, what are the limits and expanse of A-ma’s power?



So many books I read require me to put aside my strong feminism and accept that others live differently. This book was starkly honest in this. And yet, sometimes I also have to look at our modern American society and wonder how much we actually respect and value women. Many people still view women as a distant second to men – in pay, in autonomy over our bodies, in health care, the list goes on.



9. In the chapter transcribing a group therapy session for Chinese-American adoptees that Haley attends, many of the patients have mixed feelings about their adoptive and birth parents.



It is a reminder that we can feel more than one thing at a time. She can love her adoptive parents and still long for her birth mother. These feeling can and do coexist.



13. The only person who doesn’t have a secret of major significance is Haley. What does that say about her?



We don’t know much about Haley, her character is much less developed than A-ma and Li-yan. She has secrets, as the reader, we just don’t learn about them.



15. How do you think Li-yan and Haley will relate to each other—as mother and child, or will their roles be something slightly different? What do you suppose Haley and Li-yan will talk about first?



I think they will find common ground through tea. There first conversation is basic introductions and getting to know one another. There will be trust issues and struggles, but they both want this relationship and will make it work.

[aurora]

ally, yes on the modern devaluing of women! Although it's less explicit than the book, women are not culturally equal to men in the U.S. in 2018, so it didn't feel that out of place 30 years ago, either.

[rainbowchip]

I just remembered that I wanted to bring up. I found the Akha traditions so archaic but yet they encouraged premarital sex and finding someone you are sexually compatible with. But yet it's frowned upon if the women/girls get pregnant. The logic just doesn't make sense.

[aurora]

Apr 27, 2018 20:57:29 GMT -5 rainbowchip said:

I just remembered that I wanted to bring up. I found the Akha traditions so archaic but yet they encouraged premarital sex and finding someone you are sexually compatible with. But yet it's frowned upon if the women/girls get pregnant. The logic just doesn't make sense.

I feel like there's very little logic when it comes to cultural traditions around sex.

[redmonkeystomper]

I started off liking this book and then I got to the part with the twins and I almost stopped reading.  It was just hard to digest and even though this was a work of fiction, that really was a custom as short as 20 years ago.  I did finish the book and I was bored at all the tea stuff and felt like Haley's story was rushed. I would have been more interested if the story had been told with more from Haley's perspective.  After reading I did start researching minority ethnic groups in China just from interest.  I may go on to read some nonfiction based on that topic later.

[wesleycrusher]

Bumping this because I just finished the book.

I liked it, I give it 4 stars. I am not a tea drinker, but reading about it was interesting, especially in regards to the cultural practices, as it wasn't really something I thought about before. I also had never really though about minority ethnic groups in China. So I'm glad I was able to read the book in the age of Google to look up things to get some more background information.

I agree with what as stated above as to it being "historical fiction." It is immersive in the period depicted, but is that period long enough ago to be historical? It's an interesting question.

I don't think the balance with Haley's story was good- I wish it had more or less. Part of me didn't like the little snippets of Haley's life, but another part liked the juxposition between the Americanized way of life vs the traditional life in China.