I mean, I do think it would be interesting to hear from someone who came from a lower-income family and is now pulling in somewhere in the mid-six figures as the owner of a plumbing or auto repair business. I’d be fascinated to hear what aspects of upper-class society are still closed to him or her. Because I do believe the U.S, unlike other countries, is still a place where money talks. Maybe you won’t be accepted into every country club, but does that really matter?
I imagine a high earning black person who wasn't in a "white collar' industry would have a harder time getting into upper-class society than a similar high earning, non-white collar white person. And other races/ethnicities likely also face similar challenges.
But for white people, I agree that the class issue is a distraction. Yes, you aren't going to get invited to a Royal Wedding. No, that does not mean that you are middle class.
So based on this some people need to stop saying they are UMC because they are clearly UC. What is wrong with saying that? And I am rightfully annoyed. LOL
I always thought we were UC but according to that we are solidly in the middle. And that's probably why we feel so broke - lol
I mean, I do think it would be interesting to hear from someone who came from a lower-income family and is now pulling in somewhere in the mid-six figures as the owner of a plumbing or auto repair business. I’d be fascinated to hear what aspects of upper-class society are still closed to him or her. Because I do believe the U.S, unlike other countries, is still a place where money talks. Maybe you won’t be accepted into every country club, but does that really matter?
My dad was raised in lower income and is now upper income, but since his career is "prestigious" there are really no remnants of lower income life.
ETA: He also does not live in the same area he was raised in which may make a difference.
I’m curious about the people who made their money from a non-prestigious career though.
Like my grandfather was a Holocaust survivor (came here with nothing, didn’t speak a word of English) who made his money (not a lot but enough to have a solid UMC lifestyle) selling faux leather handbags. But two of his three kids nevertheless moved into the upper-income and half of his grandkids are there too (some are still in college and high school so too soon to tell.)
I don’t think anything changed for our family because of his humble beginnings — or if it affected his children, by the next generation, all those barriers had been removed in terms of access to upper echelons of society (namely elite universities and professions and all the privileges that has conferred on us.)
The second one is not in the NYC metro area (it's in a LCOL area of NE PA) but, yes, we were able to pull together a down payment for it.
I'm not naive at how much privilege I have. Upper class feels (yes, feels) wrong because I still have to pay my student loans each month and when we decided to upgrade our 1 car to an SUV, we took out a loan because a monthly payment was much more reasonable than emptying the bank account to pay for it on the spot. The discussion about income vs. wealth really speaks to me because DINKs who have the same HHI but paid off their mortgages have a much, much stronger financial position.
Really though, my H is the one that really bristles at the UMC label, let alone UC. I'm like, I wasn't allowed to have post-its as a 10 year old and look at me now. But, as I mentioned, he regularly deals with and socializes with true 1%ers. And constantly is looking at our finances. I think he pictures UC more like the people who are the top of the top.
The fact that you have enough money in savings to consider buying an SUV in cash (even if it would drain your liquid savings) is a pretty clear indicator that you are not middle class. This puts you ahead of the household wealth of a huge portion of the population.
No matter how much you dig in on this it’s actually not about how you feel or what you picture. Everyone in the world can point to someone who makes more or has more, but that doesn’t mean that only the 1% is upper class and no one else.
I hadn't thought about it like that, TBH. I don't know that we were ever seriously considering it because we were aggressively building up savings to put towards our eventual move, but you're right. We definitely had the option that many people do not.
I don't know why this is hard to admit or why it feels shameful. I mean, I guess my background/childhood makes me feel like maybe I don't deserve it or it was too easy because I married someone who just happened to have a higher earning potential than me? Even though I too work hard and I definitely earned my job.
Pro tip: if you were able to pay for your expensive graduate school tuition in cash, you’re not middle class.
my entire undergrad and a good chunk of grad school were paid for by scholarships (both need and merit), but you're right that the remaining amount was nothing to sneeze at and our ability to pay it off ASAP is a good indicator of wealth.
Does everyone know the HHIs of their friends and families? I know nothing about nobody. Most of our friends live similar lifestyles to us (if not slightly more extravagant), but since that is not the actual indicator of SES, I’m not 100%. My H and I are upper based on that link, but I would imagine that our friends would put us in the middle class category if asked.
Friends, not really. Family? Basing it on conversations and observations. My parents paid for a week-long cruise for themselves and 10 family members. H's dad recently built a nearly million-dollar house and owns three luxury cars.
I mean, I do think it would be interesting to hear from someone who came from a lower-income family and is now pulling in somewhere in the mid-six figures as the owner of a plumbing or auto repair business. I’d be fascinated to hear what aspects of upper-class society are still closed to him or her. Because I do believe the U.S, unlike other countries, is still a place where money talks. Maybe you won’t be accepted into every country club, but does that really matter?
I know a few people like this (we are not necessarily friends, but I know them.) From what I can tell, it does seem that money talks. Sure old money is different and I guess it will always be that way, but they still get into country clubs they want (so for Baltimore, they probably don't get into THE oldest and most exclusive club, but they may get into most other ones.) Things like getting into private schools or private colleges where legacy matters is tricky, but money talks there too.
There is a difference between the .1% and being upper class.
Yeah this is where these threads always go off the rails.
There is (almost) always going to be someone richer than you. It doesnt mean you arent upper class. Just because you aren't Bill Gates doesnt mean you arent upper class.
I remember V was a real stickler with this. She kept insisting that she was UMC or middle class because she wasnt "elite" like some other people in NYC. I was always like......okay then.
There is a difference between the .1% and being upper class.
Yeah this is where these threads always go off the rails.
There is (almost) always going to be someone richer than you. It doesnt mean you arent upper class. Just because you aren't Bill Gates doesnt mean you arent upper class.
I remember V was a real stickler with this. She kept insisting that she was UMC or middle class because she wasnt "elite" like some other people in NYC. I was always like......okay then.
There was another one, Icap, who once said she wasn't rich even though their HHI income was $500k a year.
There is a difference between the .1% and being upper class.
Yeah this is where these threads always go off the rails.
There is (almost) always going to be someone richer than you. It doesnt mean you arent upper class. Just because you aren't Bill Gates doesnt mean you arent upper class.
I remember V was a real stickler with this. She kept insisting that she was UMC or middle class because she wasnt "elite" like some other people in NYC. I was always like......okay then.
She said it was because she works for a living. She was pretty clear that she and her husband were in the 400K annual HHI range, but because they had to earn it they are merely middle class. Infuriating.
My dad was raised in lower income and is now upper income, but since his career is "prestigious" there are really no remnants of lower income life.
ETA: He also does not live in the same area he was raised in which may make a difference.
I’m curious about the people who made their money from a non-prestigious career though.
Like my grandfather was a Holocaust survivor (came here with nothing, didn’t speak a word of English) who made his money (not a lot but enough to have a solid UMC lifestyle) selling faux leather handbags. But two of his three kids nevertheless moved into the upper-income and half of his grandkids are there too (some are still in college and high school so too soon to tell.)
I don’t think anything changed for our family because of his humble beginnings — or if it affected his children, by the next generation, all those barriers had been removed in terms of access to upper echelons of society (namely elite universities and professions and all the privileges that has conferred on us.)
My parents were both born into lower-middle class families, and are now definitely upper class. When I was 2 years old, my dad entered the police department, and my mom stayed home with me (she started working as a secretary when I was 12, eventually working at an Ivy League university that paid very well). Almost 40 years later, my dad is still active in the police department, and was recently promoted to the the second-highest promote-able position (after a certain level, you have to be appointed, not promoted). My mom retired a few months ago.
My dad's parents divorced when he was in his early teens, so they had to really pinch pennies to keep the house. Those habits stayed with him. We moved in with my grandmother, which allowed he and my mom to save enough money to buy their own home.
We're definitely UC, both in terms of income and our net worth. We've been extremely lucky with our careers and scholarships (no student debt). I think it's pretty telling that we can afford to send three kids to daycare - everyone else I know around here with three or more kids either stays home or has older kids more spaced out. Actually I don't think I know anyone besides us who has 3+ kids who didn't have a SAHP when the kids were little. My family is solidly middle class, DH grew up in poverty, so yes, our circle crosses class lines. But as someone else mentioned, most of the people we know who have low incomes are grad students or post-docs, not blue collar workers. I'm fairly certain that our neighborhood is mostly middle-class, so most of our acquaintances locally have less money than us. DH and I regularly remind ourselves and each other just how lucky we've been.
Even in New York City a household income above 200,000 a year is in the top 10% of income earners. I really do not see how that can be anything other than upper class, no matter what other factors you’re attempting to consider.
I get that no one wants to claim they are wealthy but this idea that “everyone” is upper middle class except multi billionaires is really grating and doesn’t reflect the data.
Plus even if you use wealth and not income as the standard, I think most people overestimate how much it takes to be “upper” based on assets.
The median net worth for someone between the ages of 35 to 44 is around $45k. That includes home equity, retirement, savings, everything. So you don’t have to have millions in investments (or be a trust fund kid) to be in an upper percentile.
I mean, I do think it would be interesting to hear from someone who came from a lower-income family and is now pulling in somewhere in the mid-six figures as the owner of a plumbing or auto repair business. I’d be fascinated to hear what aspects of upper-class society are still closed to him or her. Because I do believe the U.S, unlike other countries, is still a place where money talks. Maybe you won’t be accepted into every country club, but does that really matter?
I imagine a high earning black person who wasn't in a "white collar' industry would have a harder time getting into upper-class society than a similar high earning, non-white collar white person. And other races/ethnicities likely also face similar challenges.
But for white people, I agree that the class issue is a distraction. Yes, you aren't going to get invited to a Royal Wedding. No, that does not mean that you are middle class.
I’ve actually wondered if this inability to admit that you’re upper class is mostly white people foolishness.
Yes, I have fair range of economic diversity in my life. From friends on food stamps to family in the upper 9% (I suspect higher, but really don't know). Same with education/professionalism.
Most people I feel comfortable around will acknowledge the role luck plays in where they are.
Post by iammalcolmx on May 22, 2018 17:41:03 GMT -5
I wasn't trying to start the age old Obama rich debate. Its just that my BFF lives on the Continent. She is limited while dating because of her high Socioeconomic class. First I thought that wasn't an issue we had here, then I thought again. Just wanted to know of others experiences, regarding who they hang out with.
Even in New York City a household income above 200,000 a year is in the top 10% of income earners. I really do not see how that can be anything other than upper class, no matter what other factors you’re attempting to consider.
I get that no one wants to claim they are wealthy but this idea that “everyone” is upper middle class except multi billionaires is really grating and doesn’t reflect the data.
Plus even if you use wealth and not income as the standard, I think most people overestimate how much it takes to be “upper” based on assets. The median net worth for someone between the ages of 35 to 44 is around $45k. That includes home equity, retirement, savings, everything. So you don’t have to have millions in investments (or be a trust fund kid) to be in an upper percentile.
Wow. That seems low. Not that I don't believe it, it just puts things in perspective for me even more than HHI.
Not really. My friends are from college (same general SES now since we we are now professionals 20 years into careers), from work (not much variation - a few have family money, others have poorer backgrounds but we all make about the same - our spouses vary but not enough to consider anyone of a different class) or neighborhood friends (duh - can afford the houses here).
I do have some friends who are much much wealthier than I, and a few who are definitively working class but generally, no, we're all pretty UMC in my world, as far as I know.
"Hello babies. Welcome to Earth. It's hot in the summer and cold in the winter. It's round and wet and crowded. On the outside, babies, you've got a hundred years here. There's only one rule that I know of, babies-"God damn it, you've got to be kind.”
I wasn't trying to start the age old Obama rich debate. Its just that my BFF lives on the Continent. She is limited while dating because of her high Socioeconomic class. First I thought that wasn't an issue we had here, then I thought again. Just wanted to know of others experiences, regarding who they hang out with.
So you mean she is rich/upper class and is having trouble finding people to date because she is trying to stay in the sphere?
I'm thinking to college, which is where I interacted with more rich people than at any other time in my life, and I am pretty sure that all the rich kids married other rich kids. The richest girls I knew married significantly older, very wealthy men. I dont think that means anything, but I did notice it and find it interesting.
I grew up working class—so upper lower class? I can’t say lower class because we didn’t have food insecurity or anything like that, but we lived with my grandparents and there were many months my parents couldn’t pay the promised rent.
DH and I are pretty solidly middle class, but many other family members are lower and my parents are both near poverty line, if not below it.
I have a friend through church who is below the poverty line, and know several people at church who are UMC but maybe one or two who are UC.
Post by seeyalater52 on May 22, 2018 18:02:02 GMT -5
One other piece of data that I'm wondering if people are fully contexualizing in their replies is what constitutes poverty level. Not being sassy, just genuinely curious because when we do focus groups on Medicaid eligibility participants are always blown totally away by how low of an income is considered 100% federal poverty level. I'm guessing most people who don't deal with eligibility standards themselves (personally or through their job) don't fully grasp how incredibly low these are, especially given that they don't account for geographic area at all.
For 2018 it's as follows (more in chart): 1 $12,140 2 $16,460 3 $20,780 4 $25,100
Post by karinothing on May 22, 2018 18:08:04 GMT -5
I am upper now. My in-laws are lower and obviously I associate with them. They are live in a very economically depressed area (I talking average HHI of 11k) and it is always a bit of a shock going to visit.
The vast majority of my good friends are probably UC or UMC but my high school friends are mostly lower. I guess I grew up middle (sometimes lower).
I wasn't trying to start the age old Obama rich debate. Its just that my BFF lives on the Continent. She is limited while dating because of her high Socioeconomic class. First I thought that wasn't an issue we had here, then I thought again. Just wanted to know of others experiences, regarding who they hang out with.
So you mean she is rich/upper class and is having trouble finding people to date because she is trying to stay in the sphere?
I'm thinking to college, which is where I interacted with more rich people than at any other time in my life, and I am pretty sure that all the rich kids married other rich kids. The richest girls I knew married significantly older, very wealthy men. I dont think that means anything, but I did notice it and find it interesting.
Yes. Most of the men her age and in her Higher Class are married.
Using the UC, MC, and LC terms from the link, we are UC. I grew up MC while H grew up UC. Most of our friends are a mix between UC and MC. We obviously have “couple friends” we share that are both UC and MC, but it’s interesting how our careers have impacted our social circles. I’m a teacher, so most of “my” friends are MC. H is in tech sales, so “his” friends are UC.
I feel like that link needs another category (and no, not UMC): 1% or something like that. I don’t think anyone should feel weird about claiming UC because they don’t fly in private jets. UMC is like a surbabia myth. Edited for typos
I mean, I do think it would be interesting to hear from someone who came from a lower-income family and is now pulling in somewhere in the mid-six figures as the owner of a plumbing or auto repair business. I’d be fascinated to hear what aspects of upper-class society are still closed to him or her. Because I do believe the U.S, unlike other countries, is still a place where money talks. Maybe you won’t be accepted into every country club, but does that really matter?
My dad has a number of clients who came from poverty and are now multimillionaires. It’s interesting because the plumber/electrician types who own their own business have less issues moving across SES lines than the clients who have a higher net worth, but less desirable income type (strip club owner etc).
My friends and family cross all SES levels, not just through income levels but also through other markets of SES (education etc)
As someone who has personally ping ponged through the SES and is currently UC the one thing that is abundantly clear to me is that once you’ve been at an UC level and lose it all it’s easier to move back up the SES levels. This could be through family help, help from contacts, knowledge of budgeting skills, UC small talk etc.