"We Were Eight Years in Power" - book club discussion

[ufcasey]

This month's book discussion is We Were Eight Years in Power by a-Nehisi Coates

Here's the breakdown of the nine sections (including links to the original articles posted in The Atlantic if you want to read them again) and a very brief summary of what some of the non-obvious titles are about to help with your memory in case you read them a while ago.


This is How We Lost to the White Man - about Bill Cosby and his group talks with black men, before his sexual assaults came to light

American Girl - about Michelle Obama, before she wrote her own memoir, "Becoming"

Why Do So Few Blacks Study the Civil War

The Legacy of Malcolm X

Fear of a Black President - written in 2012

The Case for Reparations

The Black Family in the Age of Mass Incarceration

My President Was Black - written in January 2017

The First White President

Maybe some discussion points to consider, but feel free to ignore them and just type what you thought about the articles/book in general:

1. Which section/article was your favorite/most impactful?
2. Which section/article did you connect with the least?
3. How has some of these articles stood up with the passage of time (Bill Cosby conviction, Trump presidency, Michelle Obama's memoir if you have read it, etc.)?
4. How did this compare to Coates' other book 'Between the World and Me' if you have read it?
5. Do you wish any of these articles could have been expounded further and made into it's own book? If so, which one?

ETA: I'll be posting the 2019 Book Club reading schedule on Friday
 

[ufcasey]

Tagging people who might have read this:
rainbowchip, minzy, aurora, ally, wesleycrusher, melmaria, kelliebeans104, W.T.Faulkner, msmerymac

[aurora]

Thank you! I'm almost done with the audiobook so will come back in a day or two.

My initial impression is two-fold: I probably shouldn't have listened to this one, since I think I can focus better when reading on paper or Kindle, and I really enjoyed reading Coates's interactions with Obama before The First Black President.

Also it has been interesting to learn some of Coates's personal history about how he came to write.

[wesleycrusher]

I will admit this book was not what I expected. I hadn't read anything written by Coate's before, although I knew this book got good reviews and was popular. So it was way more academic then I was expecting, based on it's popularity. That plus the first essay being about Bill Cosby made me not as engaged in reading the rest of the book. I think I would have enjoyed it more reading it as essays- like maybe reading one a week or something instead of all at once because looking back they blend together since I read it straight through. I don't want to say some essays were better than others, the topics of all of the essays were important, but I do remember certain ones keeping my interest more. I think my favorite was My President Was Black. I liked ones that felt more...personal, I guess I would say?

[tacokick]

I read this a while ago. While I appreciate and agree with what he says the bulk of the time, for some reason his writing style doesn’t draw me in. It always seems very oratory to me, as if I am reading speeches vs essays. Maybe I should try the audiobook? I had a hard time getting through this and I had already read most of the essays when they were first published.

[tacokick]

1. Which section/article was your favorite/most impactful?

The Black Family in the Age of Mass Incarceration. It’s a subject I’m most interested, especially living in Baltimore and seeing the impact here.

2. Which section/article did you connect with the least?

Bill Cosby. I’ve always hated Bill Cosby and have heard him do a talk similar to the one he discusses here so I’m biased.


3. How has some of these articles stood up with the passage of time (Bill Cosby conviction, Trump presidency, Michelle Obama's memoir if you have read it, etc.)?

I don’t think they aged well. Some of the ideas are timeless but the details seemed dated IMO

4. How did this compare to Coates' other book 'Between the World and Me' if you have read it?

I liked it a bit less. It seemed dated to me despite all it being current. I don’t understand why it was published in book form when the essays are available online and most were pretty topical to when they were originally published.

5. Do you wish any of these articles could have been expounded further and made into it's own book? If so, which one?

I’d like to read more about the mass incarceration.

[rainbowchip]

I ended up having to get this book in paper form. I really wish I could have read it on my kindle so that I could have saved some quotes and also looked up words I didn't know instantly. His vocabulary is far superior to my own but I understand his points.

In general, this book made me feel more useless than I already do. I am a very pragmatic person. If there is a problem, I want to find a solution. And there really is no easy solution. But I kept waiting for him to say, "let's do xy and z and then bingo!"

I also felt like the essays ended very abruptly. I used to sort of a closing summary and these essays didn't do that.

Overall, I loved the different perspective. I also devoured all the parts about the Obamas. They are truly fantastic people, flaws and all. I have Michelle's book checked out from the library and will be reading it in the next week or so.

I feel like this is coming off as negative. I loved how much this book made me think. To get outside of my box. I loved that he basically said that, yes, racism is why we have the current president. And he backed that statement up with data. I loved how he didn't put anyone on a pedestal. He acknowledged their flaws but flawed people can still do great things. Nobody is perfect.

[minzy]

I'm still working my way through so will be back again later.  I agree the writing style and format is not as captivating as other things I have read, which may be why it's taking me so long to get through it.  I have to read very carefully to make sure I get what he's saying.  However, I appreciate his perspective and the nuances he highlights.  The book feels important to read.

I think he does a good job underscoring the systemic difficulties black Americans have and continue to face.  I'm on the reparations chapter now (and perhaps that's the salient takeaway), but like rainbowchip I want him to tell me how to "fix" the chronic disparities.  Like all my climate change reading, I want and am trying to improve things in my own corner, but I feel somewhat overwhelmed and helpless given the scale of the problem.  (I know he says he struggles with being the voice of the topic who now is asked for solutions.)  

His point of the Bill Cosby chapter is mostly criticism about Cosby's attempt to tell black men to just buck up, but Cosby's recent sentencing also makes me wonder about another issue of these celebrities/politicians gone wrong: Do you bifurcate the legacy of people who do both objectively great and terrible things, or do the otherwise good accomplishments of such people no longer matter?  I don't have the answer.  In the Malcolm X essay though, Coates does a skillful job of painting a full portrait of both the positive and not as positive aspects of Malcolm X's life.  

I found interesting his criticism of the Obamas for glossing over some of the black experience to make themselves more relatable to white voters.  I haven't read Michelle's book Becoming yet (and it may be awhile since the hold list is a mile long) but it will be interesting to compare the two perspectives.  That blacks have to be "twice as good" is totally unfair to them/infuriating/awful.  

I live in an area rife with Civil War history so that chapter was interesting to me.  I hadn't really considered that blacks are portrayed as minor characters or even props in the Civil War.  I'm going to a Civil War site next week and will be observing the information that's presented with a very critical eye.

It's been a couple of years since I read 'Between the World and Me' but that one felt faster and more cohesive to me.  When it came up again in this book, I definitely remembered the part about his friend who was killed while driving a nice car in suburban DC.  

[wildrice]

Thank you for posting those articles. When I have more time, I should go back and re-read them. I read "We were 8 years in power" really early this year, probably in January, and I have the worst memory for details so I honestly only vaguely remember a lot of the book. I remember thinking at the time that I should buy a copy (I borrowed it from the library) so I could read it again, since it is pretty dense with ideas and heavy topics and I knew I wasn't going to actually absorb and remember a lot of what was discussed.

My overall impression of the book was very positive. I don't read the Atlantic with any regularly, only when I see an article posted by someone, and that's only really been in the last couple of years. So I think all of the chapters were new to me at the time.

I remember the chapter on the case for reparations having the most impact on me. I think I had been familiar with many of the reasons he presented, but never thought about them all together as a whole. I read "The New Jim Crow" last year and I think a lot of what was discussed in the chapter about mass incarceration didn't seem "new", though that's a topic I have a lot of interest in and strong feelings about.

I wish I had more specific points to make right now, but I guess in summary - I think it was a good book to read, especially as a white person. I like his way of writing, and his perspective helped open my eyes to the details of certain things that I wouldn't have thought of or known about coming from my white perspective. It was not a quick or easy read, but I think it's a worthwhile piece of my education on the issues and difficulties black Americans face and their perspective on things. I have no idea how it reads to a black person, but I think white people should read it.

[ufcasey]

Here's my thoughts for each section:

"This is How We Lost to the White Man" - I thought this was very insightful regarding the fallacies he noted about Bill Cosby's bootstraps speeches. However I just felt so uncomfortable reading this knowing that it's not addressing any of the sexual assault stuff (because it hadn't come out yet)

"American Girl" - I really enjoyed this look into Michelle Obama's history, but I'm really looking forward to reading her own book whenever my library wait list number finally comes up

"Why Do So Few Blacks Study the Civil War" -  I happened to read this chapter on the very day that General Kelly argued that the Civil War was a result of a lack of compromise, something that was specifically called out in this chapter for the ridiculousness that it is. And then just yesterday I read an article from the Washington Post about the same thing (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/magazine/wp/2018/11/28/feature/the-confederacy-was-built-on-slavery-how-can-so-many-southern-whites-still-believe-otherwise/?noredirect=on).

"The Legacy of Malcolm X" - I honestly didn't know much about him prior to reading this, other than the basics.

"Fear of a Black President" - I wish I had read this prior to the 2016 election, then maybe I would have seen the outcome coming.

"The Case for Reparations" - this is something I have NEVER thought or heard about and my knee jerk reaction to it at first was "How would this work, would you just start giving people checks?". After reading this, my eyes have been opened, and I think everyone needs to read this. And by everyone, I mean, really white people need to read this. This gave me a LOT of food for thought and I learned a lot from it.

"The Black Family in the Age of Mass Incarceration" - This was an equally important section as the one about reparations, and yet I honestly was bored by it. I know, that's terrible. Maybe I was just not in the mood to read it, but it just didn't hold my interest as much, though I did think it was good information to have and definitely an issue that needs to be addressed, if that makes sense?

"My President Was Black" - In the review I wrote for this, I mentioned specifically that I really liked it but I disagreed with Coates' assessment of Obama's 'thought experiment' that was briefly mentioned. I honestly couldn't remember what that was, so I went and looked for that part to re-read it. Basically Obama's 'thought experiment' was if the government was able to make it so that black children were able to graduate highschool at the same rates as whites, were sent through programs that would allow black children to enter and graduate college at the same rates as whites, and that laws/courts would ensure that blacks would be hired by companies at the same rates as whites, that eventually, in probably more than 20 years, things would really change for the better and the successes that have been seen in creativity and sports for blacks would then be seen increasingly in businesses. Coates thought it wasn't possible because anything that would raise up black people would also raise up white people, keeping the inequality the same. He also points out that the number of black Americans in jail is not a result of a policy problem, but a humanity problem. And you know what, I agree with Coates more now, as pessimistic as that might seem. I think policy can improve things, but racism itself is still an underlying issue.

"The First White President" - This shit depressed me with how on point it was.

[ufcasey]

Nov 29, 2018 12:55:56 GMT -5 minzy said:

It's been a couple of years since I read 'Between the World and Me' but that one felt faster and more cohesive to me.  When it came up again in this book, I definitely remembered the part about his friend who was killed while driving a nice car in suburban DC.  

Yes! I agree with you that I thought Between the World and Me was more fluid/cohesive to me. Also I remember about his friend named Paris too. Just so infuriating and sad.

[ufcasey]

Forgot to answer the questions:
1. Which section/article was your favorite/most impactful?
The reparations one, that really changed my world view honestly because I just didn't know about almost any of it!
2. Which section/article did you connect with the least?
Tie between Bill Cosby (because I get grossed out just thinking about him now) and the Incarceration one (sorry, it just read 'dry' to me, I should probably re-read it though and see if I feel differently now)
3. How has some of these articles stood up with the passage of time (Bill Cosby conviction, Trump presidency, Michelle Obama's memoir if you have read it, etc.)?
I honestly don't know why Coates included the Bill Cosby one seeing as the allegations came out after he wrote the article but before he published this book.
4. How did this compare to Coates' other book 'Between the World and Me' if you have read it?
I liked Between the World and Me better in some ways because it was just a whole life viewpoint I did not have and needed to see. This book felt like what it was, a conglomeration of things he had already published only with a little bit of added intro to each one.
5. Do you wish any of these articles could have been expounded further and made into it's own book? If so, which one?
I wish the reparations stuff was is it's own full book, because I think more white people need to learn about all the ways systematically the government has held people down since slavery was abolished. I think a lot of people just see it as a magical wand was waved, and we were all made equal. I knew that wasn't the case, but man, I still didn't realize how deep some of this stuff went, all the way to just buying a house through a bank via shitty loans (white flight I did at least knew about).

[aurora]

OK, I finished the book and am back to discuss!

I'll be honest that I liked Between the World and Me better, though that might be simply because I like single storyline books a lot more than collections in general.

I had read a couple of the essays in The Atlantic over the years, though I certainly appreciated the refreshers. I think the most interesting part for me was Coates' introductions to each (where he was in his life when he wrote them). The audiobook format definitely didn't help, because sometimes I'd forget if I was in an introduction or an essay and couldn't easily check.

I agree the Bill Cosby one really turned me off.

I think the First White President was one of the most startling right from the title, though I can definitely see the point he was making. I tried and failed to explain it to H, so in the end I just sent him the article because I think Coates did a much better job than I was doing.

I also agree with others that the Reparations one was really well-done. I had definitely read that one in The Atlantic, but remember being more persuaded than I had expected to be at the time, and that was when Obama was still President and I couldn't imagine a time still to come in the future when we would be as openly, blatantly racist as a country as I know now we are.

ETA I also really enjoyed Coates' stories about his interactions with Obama, both when they agreed but even more so when they disagreed. I thought he had a very thoughtful treatment of those conversations.

[aurora]

Nov 29, 2018 15:23:13 GMT -5 wildrice said:

...

I remember the chapter on the case for reparations having the most impact on me. I think I had been familiar with many of the reasons he presented, but never thought about them all together as a whole. I read "The New Jim Crow" last year and I think a lot of what was discussed in the chapter about mass incarceration didn't seem "new", though that's a topic I have a lot of interest in and strong feelings about.

...

Definitely recommended to anyone who wanted to learn more after the Reparations chapter!

[aurora]

Nov 29, 2018 12:55:56 GMT -5 minzy said:

...

It's been a couple of years since I read 'Between the World and Me' but that one felt faster and more cohesive to me.  When it came up again in this book, I definitely remembered the part about his friend who was killed while driving a nice car in suburban DC.  

I agree with you, but when I step back it definitely makes sense that a letter to his son would flow in a different, likely more accessible way than a series of essays written for The Atlantic.

[minzy]

I finally finished reading the book.

With regard to the discussion of reparations, perhaps why he doesn’t get too far into the logistics (who gets paid, how much, when, by whom, etc.) is because he seems to acknowledge it realistically won’t be happening politically any time soon, especially in the age of Trump. Along those lines, I thought this was an interesting thought on p. 207: “More important than any single check cut out to any African American, the payment of reparations would represent America’s maturation out of the childhood myth of its innocence into a wisdom worthy of its founders.”

Another line/admonishment(?) I found particularly thought provoking is on page 200: “To celebrate freedom and democracy while forgetting America’s origins in a slavery economy is patriotism a la carte.”