The Bear and the Nightingale - book club discussion!

[ufcasey]

It's book club discussion time! The last book for 2018 is The Bear and the Nightingale by Katherine Arden. I'm posting from my phone on vacation so I don't have questions on hand and also can't easily find which people have read this book to tag them like I usually do, sorry! So, um, discuss?

Ok here's some half-assed questions I'm making up on the spot:
1. This book has a Russian folklore backdrop - did that setting enhance your reading experience in any way?
2. What are your thoughts on the fantasy-ish elements?
3. What did you think of the plot?
4. Did you read/plan to read the next book in this series? If you have read it, what did you think (no spoilers!) ?

[travella]

I was not looking forward to reading this book because I didn't think I was going to like it. I would have never picked it up without the book club. However, I ended up really enjoying this book! 4*

1. This book has a Russian folklore backdrop - did that setting enhance your reading experience in any way?


Yes, I think the Russian folklore backdrop was one of the main reasons I enjoyed the book. When I was young my great aunt would watch me often and she would pull out really old folklore books and read them to me. At the time the stories scared me because they were so dark. Over the years I have tried to find the stories she used to read, but to no avail. The overall feel of this story is very close to what she used to read to me. I enjoyed the reminiscing of times long ago.


2. What are your thoughts on the fantasy-ish elements?

It's very seldom that fantasy stories draw me in, but I actually enjoyed it.

3. What did you think of the plot?

I enjoyed it. I thought it was slow, but I never had difficulty jumping right back into the story every time I picked the book back up.
I didn't like the ending, but the next book helped answer some of the questions and concerns I had over the ending.

4. Did you read/plan to read the next book in this series? If you have read it, what did you think (no spoilers!) ?

I am currently reading the next book. I'm about 50% of the way through it and I'm enjoying it as well. I liked that it helped me understand the ending of the first book.

[wesleycrusher]

I just finished (making it my 200th book for 2018!)

I really enjoyed the story, up until she ran into the woods. I thought it went off the rails a bit at that point- it left me with a LOT of questions (that look like they may be answered in the sequels?). I did request the sequel from the library.

[ssmjlm]

Ok I did not get this book at all. I’m all for fantasy and stories, but the book made no sense. The first 2/3 was basically the day to day of the family. It was odd to me that this was suppose to transition to this big story.

I also did not get the relationship between the winter god and Vasa. It seemed initially it was a romantic thing, then not, then he kisses her, then I have no idea.

Maybe I missed something early on.

[scribellesam]

I really enjoyed this book. I’ve always loved fantasy and fairy tale-type stories, so this was right up my alley. I’m not familiar with Russian fairy tales, so the setting added a lot for me because it was new creatures and characters I hadn’t heard of before this book.

I actually liked the sequel even more than this one. So if you liked this book but found it a little slow, I definitely recommend the next one because it opens up the story a lot and the plot moves more quickly as well. The third book comes out next week and I’m really looking forward to it!

[aurora]

Add me to the list of people who liked this book more than I had expected. I really enjoyed how the tale told to the kids at the start wove its way into the main story, and of course I like stories with strong female characters. I did end up rushing the audiobook more than I would have liked so there's a good chance I'll read it again sometime in the future to catch what I expect I missed.

1. This book has a Russian folklore backdrop - did that setting enhance your reading experience in any way?
>> I don't know that much about Russian folklore so I probably didn't make all the connections I should have. I noticed all of the variations on names the characters called each other (which is why I had to keep a character list when I read War and Peace years ago). I also find that, having grown up in a very cold climate where seasons drive a lot about life, I really enjoy extremely cold weather settings for my novels. Things like having to pay attention to when the rivers are frozen for easier transportation really catch my attention.

2. What are your thoughts on the fantasy-ish elements?
>> I like fantasy, so these didn't bother me. They felt like the fit with the story overall.

3. What did you think of the plot?
>> I guess I sort of answered this above, but the main things that stuck out to me were the strong female lead and the connections to the fireside tale, both of which I liked.

4. Did you read/plan to read the next book in this series? If you have read it, what did you think (no spoilers!) ?
>> I wasn't sure before, but I plan to now.

[aurora]

Also, thanks to ufcasey for keeping us on track as always! Since you were away from your computer I googled a reading/discussion guide and found quite a few at
www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/251789/the-bear-and-the-nightingale-by-katherine-arden/9781101885956/readers-guide/

(nobody should feel compelled to go through all of these!)

1. Throughout the novel, Vasya meets many strange creatures from Dunya’s fairy tales—­from the domovoi to the rusalka to upyry. Which of the demons that Vasya encounters is your favorite? Which ones would you never want to meet?

2. Compare some of the fairy tales and creatures referenced here to your favorite Western fairy tales. What are some commonalties? How are they different?

3. What are some tropes or stock characters of the traditional Western fairy tale that you can spot in The Bear and the Nightingale? Were there any parts of the traditional Western fairy tale that were used in a way that surprised you?

4. Dunya is tasked by both Pyotr and the winter-­king to give the talisman to Vasya, yet Dunya is conflicted. She fears for Vasya’s safety if she were to possess the talisman, but the winter-­king insists that Vasya must have it in order to protect them all. Was Dunya right to keep the talisman from Vasya for so long?

5. Do you trust the winter-­king? What do you think he is still hiding from Vasya?

6. The various demons and spirits begin to prophesize Vasya’s fate to her in mysterious riddles, and we learn bit by bit that the winter-­king also seems to possess knowledge of what’s to come and the role Vasya is destined to play. What role do you think fate plays in the novel? How much of what happens is the result of choices made by the characters versus an inevitable destiny?

7. Who do you think is to blame for the suffering Vasya’s village of Lesnaya Zemlya faces: Konstantin? The villagers for neglecting their offerings to the demons? Anna for rejecting her second sight and punishing Vasya for hers? Metropolitan Aleksei for sending Anna and Konstantin to the village? Pyotr for allowing such misery to befall his village? Is the blame shared? Was the fate of the village inevitable?

8. To what degree is the character of Konstantin sympathetic? Does his passionate faith excuse his actions? Is he an unwitting dupe or a willing player in his own fall? Do his charisma and artistic talent conflict with or complement his vocation as a priest? Why?

9. What are some parallels between Vasya and her stepmother? What are some key differences between them? Why does Anna hate Vasya so much?

10. Vasya is faced with the choice of marriage, a convent, or a life in which she’s considered an outsider by her village and her family. What would you have done in her place?

11. Why do you think the villagers are so threatened by Vasya? What does she represent to them?

12. The Bear and the Nightingale is not a clear-­cut story of good vs. evil, though there are many other opposing forces, including the Bear vs. Morozko, order vs. chaos, the old traditions vs. Christianity, and, of course, the Bear vs. the Nightingale. What are some other examples? How do these opposing forces overlap, and where do you think Vasya fits in?

13. Over the course of the book, we see multiple instances of characters correlating someone’s goodness with physical appearance. For instance, Vasya’s almost-­husband, Kyril, is called handsome and is ­consequently revered despite his cruel personality. Vasya, meanwhile, is repeatedly called a “frog” and is quickly labeled a witch. What are some instances in your life where you have seen others being mis­labeled based on their appearance? Are there times when you have felt like you have been mislabeled?

14. The Bear and the Nightingale is bracketed by sacrifice—­first Vasya’s mother, then at the end her father. How is sacrifice an important theme in the book? How many characters are called upon to give up something important, even vital? Not just Vasya herself, but Anna and Konstantin, for example. How do the sacrifices of others shape the narrative?

[aurora]

In the new list I found

8. To what degree is the character of Konstantin sympathetic? Does his passionate faith excuse his actions? Is he an unwitting dupe or a willing player in his own fall? Do his charisma and artistic talent conflict with or complement his vocation as a priest? Why?

and remembered how I definitely don't like Konstantin. Male chauvanist, religious zealot, etc. I don't think his faith excused his actions at all. I think he allowed himself to be blinded by his faith in such a way that he couldn't understand other people and it made him a bigot. Of course, I have very low tolerance for religious (or religiously-cloaked) bigotry at the moment.

[minzy]

I am admittedly not big into fantasy/Russian fairy tales/medival times, so perhaps am not the ideal reader for this one, but I pretty strongly disliked this book. I disliked the idea of girls and women as less than, arranged child marriages, beatings/slapping/hitting, all the religion/idols/spirits and the horror of having to stab the zombie like spirits in the mouth. I didn’t totally hate the magic horses near the end, but at that point was just trying to power through and finish. I didn’t understand, and, maybe worse, didn’t really care about the feud between the two brothers of evil and death. I kept expecting the jeweled necklace to have some actual significance once Vasya put it on, but that didn’t seem to happen. After all the buildup of Vasya being this strong, independent, magical and special character, I was kind of annoyed that her father was the one who ended the battle at the end with his self sacrifice (I realize she probably gets stronger and fights her own battles in subsequent books). And, it was probably not the intended effect, but I actually laughed out loud at the shade Konstantin threw at the stepmother: “I see you. But, Anna Ivanovna, there is little to see.”

I’m glad so many people liked it, but this one wasn’t for me, and I have no plans to read the sequels.

[mrspez07]

I keep going back and forth on whether it was average or above average for me(3 or 4 stars). I really liked the atmospheric descriptions of life in the small Russian village, the forest, and the father’s trip to Moscow. I enjoyed the interaction with the spirits and horses and the evolution of the family. I did though often feel like I was missing a piece that would complete my understanding of her actions or the intentions or the good/evil spirits and why the Bear was rising up. The jewel’s signifance was never clear, the story of the brothers was a bit vague. I felt like more background on Russian lore or the history of this story might have been more helpful.

There was also a very palpable anger and dislike of the Christian religion that came thru the writing. Would the story have been as strong if Constantin been just a shamen or other less specific antagonist, or was it the tenets of Christianity that made the story of growing fear more likely/realistic?

Why did the story need to follow Russian historical references if it was a fantasy? In the early part of the book I asked Why is this book fantasy and the outlander books historical fiction? But the scenes in the forest in the latter part of the book turns it more fantasy than historical.

[expectantsteelerfan]

Dec 27, 2018 20:42:25 GMT -5 ssmjlm said:

Ok I did not get this book at all. I’m all for fantasy and stories, but the book made no sense. The first 2/3 was basically the day to day of the family. It was odd to me that this was suppose to transition to this big story.

I also did not get the relationship between the winter god and Vasa. It seemed initially it was a romantic thing, then not, then he kisses her, then I have no idea.

Maybe I missed something early on.

I am here with you.  I spent so much of the book wondering what the major conflict was...it had the potential to go off in many other directions with Constantin and Anne, or back to Moscow, and I kept wondering where the fairy tale was going to come back in.  And then it did, and it was like a whole other book, but I also got really confused by the relationship between Vasya and the Frost demon.  I felt like the frost demon was supposed to blur the line between a hero and a villain, but I never quite figured out the relationship between him and his 'brother' and what they both wanted Vasya for or what her 'destiny' was supposed to be.

[ssmjlm]

Also the whole Konstantin love affair with Vasa was weird and added nothing to the story.

[rootbeerfloat]

It took me awhile to get into this, but I enjoyed it a lot. Even without much familiarity with Russian folklore (I basically have none), I liked all the spirits and creatures that Vasya met.

I've read, and enjoyed even more, the second book, too. Without going into spoiler-land, there is more explanation of the Winter King. But the theme of medieval women being limited in their roles/options continues, so if that annoyed you the first time, it will probably continue to do so lol.

[ufcasey]

So I completely forgot to come back to this and add my comments. Whoops. But I now can solidly say that the last book was great and I loved it. I just finished it and I think I will have a book hangover now.

[Vespasia]

Jan 11, 2019 15:26:14 GMT -5 ufcasey said:

So I completely forgot to come back to this and add my comments. Whoops. But I now can solidly say that the last book was great and I loved it. I just finished it and I think I will have a book hangover now.

I got on the wait list for the third book months and months ago. My hold came up this week, sooner than expected, and I was so excited. Until I realized it was just an ePub document, not a Kindle book.   

I think I might have to just buy it. 

[scribellesam]

Jan 11, 2019 15:33:29 GMT -5 Vespasia said:

Jan 11, 2019 15:26:14 GMT -5 ufcasey said:

So I completely forgot to come back to this and add my comments. Whoops. But I now can solidly say that the last book was great and I loved it. I just finished it and I think I will have a book hangover now.

I got on the wait list for the third book months and months ago. My hold came up this week, sooner than expected, and I was so excited. Until I realized it was just an ePub document, not a Kindle book.   

I think I might have to just buy it. 

Ugh, the same thing happened to me! I haven’t decided yet if I’m going to struggle through reading it on my phone or just buy it.