6th grader arrested following pledge disagreement

[Stan]

www.washingtonpost.com/education/2019/02/17/florida-sixth-grader-charged-with-misdemeanor-after-refusing-recite-pledge-allegiance/?fbclid=IwAR2rEQExK0UnMsGDWOlGSENysZw-Epb6-wVhmr2JiDPtmoNf72HIE5MRrKw&utm_term=.ac26ed6fd17c

I don’t believe for a second he was threatening to beat the teacher.

[was5]

More evidence of the school to prison pipeline. An 11 year old exercising his first amendment rights ends up in juvenile detention because a substitute teacher doesn't know the school policy or the constitution.

I question the sub who pushed the issue that far, but I question the actions of the school and the police even more. I assume the principal was involved prior to the police being called. She/he should have been able to defuse the situation. At the very least, the police could have intervened without actually arresting the child. There are so many steps between disagreement between teacher and student and being in juvenile detention, especially if the child wasn't physically aggressive.

I don't believe for a second that the student was threatening the teacher. But, even if it had gotten to that point, some other adult should have been able to handle the situation better.

I'm not shocked by this but I remain disappointed.

[downtoearth]

I was just reading about this online - so many issues. I worked at a youth shelter with 12 to 18 yr old kids and so many people lacked compassion or ability to understand the kid in this case. Over the pledge too?!?!

[fumbalina]

I have been in schools and seen much less escalation for activities that do create a dangerous situation. I am disappointed that the one who seemed to have the most maturity in this situation was the 11 year old.

[starlily]

This is bullshit and if this case were assigned to me I'd lodge a conscientious objection.

[katfco]

I teach 5th grade. I haven't said the Pledge since college and I don't make my students say it. I do ask that they stand, but I've never had a student push back against that. I can easily envision a scenario where a teacher would feel she had to push back and make it a power struggle. It stopped being about the Pledge and became about showing the kid who's boss.

Any of my students who felt confident enough to push back against standing for the Pledge would likely also push back in a power struggle. It's the first rule of teaching: don't engage in a power struggle with kids. This teacher saw the kid as someone to smack down and put in his place.

That this escalated to an arrest is shameful. There are so many ways to deescalate a situation like this that don't involve treating a CHILD like a criminal. Even IF he did say something threatening to her, he's a child. That warrants a removal and a suspension.

[notsopicky]

katfco, I taught for 23 years, and I too would ask my students to stand. My request was so that they were not disruptive at their desks (shuffling papers, texting under the table, etc.) during the pledge, but to be fair, we also have a moment of silence attached to our pledge, so the standing was for that as well, classroom-mgmt-wise. I also never had a single student in 20+ years object to standing.

I don't say the pledge, because I don't agree w/ the "under God" phrase. However, I stand for it even now that I'm out of the classroom in a specialist role.

That this incident led to ARREST of an 11 year old is the criminal aspect of it all. That is shameful on the parts of every adult involved.

[penguingrrl]

That is so disturbing. That poor child. School to prison pipeline indeed.

Sadly, I’m not surprised to learn it was a sub. I am a sub and I was given literally no training whatsoever. I had to apply and provide college transcripts and do a standard background check and then I was placed in a classroom without a word on what to do, how to do it, what discipline was allowed, anything. I’m quitting because I’m so overwhelmed by it and have literally no idea what I’m doing or how to get the kids to respect me. Some of the subs I’ve seen are beyond horrendous and I could easily see them subjecting kids to their false patriotism thinking its required.

[VillainV]

Feb 18, 2019 10:07:39 GMT -5 penguingrrl said:

That is so disturbing. That poor child. School to prison pipeline indeed.

Sadly, I’m not surprised to learn it was a sub. I am a sub and I was given literally no training whatsoever. I had to apply and provide college transcripts and do a standard background check and then I was placed in a classroom without a word on what to do, how to do it, what discipline was allowed, anything. I’m quitting because I’m so overwhelmed by it and have literally no idea what I’m doing or how to get the kids to respect me. Some of the subs I’ve seen are beyond horrendous and I could easily see them subjecting kids to their false patriotism thinking its required.

This absolutely. My husband is also a substitute teacher, but he has a masters in education and several years of classroom experience. It’s not an easy job, even with the training he’s had, and most substitute teachers receive very little training. The good news for him is that his experience makes him pretty sough-after as a sub, but the bad news is that the vast majority of substitute teachers aren’t given the tools they need to be successful. Having said that, there are usually plenty of resources if a sub needs assistance (front office staff, other teachers, etc).

I’m very angry for this child and his family. Kids deserve better than this in their schools. The teacher is absolutely at fault for escalating this situation instead of defusing it.

[auroraloo]

There are so many things wrong with this.
1. Telling a student to say the pledge. And honestly, making him stand at all. Making a child stand for the pledge is the equivalent of not hiring Kaepernick for kneeling.
2. Telling a student to go somewhere else if they don't like it.
3. calling the DISTRICT offices instead of the SCHOOL office.
4. Calling the SRO instead of doing YOUR JOB de-escalating the student.
5. That the sub thinks people shouldn't attempt to effect change instead of just "moving somewhere else"
6. Saying that to a child, who is not responsible for where he lives.
7. everything. just, everything.

[lexus]

I’m surprised that several of you have never had a student refuse to stand. About 1/3 of my first period students this year refuse to stand and I have had at least a few students sitting for a few years now. After the pledge on the first day of school I asked that they all be respectful (no playing with phones, talking, or doing anything else) but told them I would never insist that they stand. An administrator told me they would prefer that I question individual students to hear their justification and determine if it is a “worthwhile” reason. I have no desire to put my students under a microscope like that, so I did not question them.

[af1212]

I taught K for ten years. I said the pledge (but used the pre-1950s version) and always had a few students who did not for religious reasons. A few times. Year I would always stay silent for the pledge and stand with them so all of the kids could see how to do it respectfully, and so the children who didn’t say the pledge didn’t feel isolated.

I did always ask them to stand silently and they always did. The students who did not say the pledge were always some of my most respectful and kind students and their families were as well.

This was all 10+ years ago but now that times are what they are I would not make them stand if I were teaching today. However just as I did then, I would make it a conversation with the whole family and not just the child as at age 5 I think they are a bit young to understand the meaning behind standing/not standing for the pledge.

However in the moment I can’t imagine pushing back. Would totally have dealt with that later!

[cmeon]

I have a 9yo and an 11yo in FL public schools who have never said the pledge- it has an ugly, racist, xenophobic, and embarrassingly commercial history; we've never had liberty and justice for all; as atheists we oppose the noninclusive "under God" line; and frankly- compulsory patriotism is as anti-American as it comes.

DS (6th) chooses not to stand, DD (3rd) usually chooses to stand with her arms at her side. There's only been one teacher who ever said anything about it, one of DD's 1st grade teachers, and she only said it to me (at a parent-teacher conference). It was uncomfortable, but, she really listened and seemed to respect DD's choice after that (in any case, she never mentioned it again).

DS is usually one of many M/T/Th/F in his enormous homeroom, he's the only one on W, in his 1st period class. His teacher does ask for everyone to stand, but, hasn't done more than that. She always has really sweet things to say about him, so I don't think she's holding it against him.

DD has 2 others in her class this year, her teacher is awesome.

FL law actually requires students to have a permission letter from their parents on file to be able to "not participate" in the pledge, but, neither of mine do.

[katfco]

Feb 18, 2019 10:07:39 GMT -5 penguingrrl said:

That is so disturbing. That poor child. School to prison pipeline indeed.

Sadly, I’m not surprised to learn it was a sub. I am a sub and I was given literally no training whatsoever. I had to apply and provide college transcripts and do a standard background check and then I was placed in a classroom without a word on what to do, how to do it, what discipline was allowed, anything. I’m quitting because I’m so overwhelmed by it and have literally no idea what I’m doing or how to get the kids to respect me. Some of the subs I’ve seen are beyond horrendous and I could easily see them subjecting kids to their false patriotism thinking its required.

I agree about subs, but I can also see this happening with a regular classroom teacher. A few years ago, the other 5th-grade teacher in my school said she required all her students to stand and say it, and even said to me, "If they don't like it, they can go to another country." She had a volatile personality, so I can definitely see her turning it into a power struggle. 

[penguingrrl]

Feb 18, 2019 14:25:33 GMT -5 katfco said:

Feb 18, 2019 10:07:39 GMT -5 penguingrrl said:

That is so disturbing. That poor child. School to prison pipeline indeed.

Sadly, I’m not surprised to learn it was a sub. I am a sub and I was given literally no training whatsoever. I had to apply and provide college transcripts and do a standard background check and then I was placed in a classroom without a word on what to do, how to do it, what discipline was allowed, anything. I’m quitting because I’m so overwhelmed by it and have literally no idea what I’m doing or how to get the kids to respect me. Some of the subs I’ve seen are beyond horrendous and I could easily see them subjecting kids to their false patriotism thinking its required.

I agree about subs, but I can also see this happening with a regular classroom teacher. A few years ago, the other 5th-grade teacher in my school said she required all her students to stand and say it, and even said to me, "If they don't like it, they can go to another country." She had a volatile personality, so I can definitely see her turning it into a power struggle. 

Damn, that’s disturbing! I always assumed that this was something administration addressed with regular teachers as a matter of school policy since it’s been upheld by SCOTUS. I just figured it was another place where subs are left out to dry as far as training.

[katfco]

Feb 18, 2019 15:11:43 GMT -5 penguingrrl said:

Feb 18, 2019 14:25:33 GMT -5 katfco said:

I agree about subs, but I can also see this happening with a regular classroom teacher. A few years ago, the other 5th-grade teacher in my school said she required all her students to stand and say it, and even said to me, "If they don't like it, they can go to another country." She had a volatile personality, so I can definitely see her turning it into a power struggle. 

Damn, that’s disturbing! I always assumed that this was something administration addressed with regular teachers as a matter of school policy since it’s been upheld by SCOTUS. I just figured it was another place where subs are left out to dry as far as training.

She was a difficult and volatile individual. I only worked for her one year, the same year we had a new principal. It was a difficult year, because we were departmentalized and had a rough group, so when they went from her class, which was run like a prison, to my class, which was more relaxed, they had a hard time respecting me. 

I was so happy when she left last year. 

Unfortunately, I know some other teachers who, although they might not respond with that kind of statement, would also have the same sentiment. 

[GilliC]

If living in the United States is “so bad,” why not go to another place to live?

As someone who lives in another country, this kind of sentiment reeeeeeeeally pisses me off. Because the answer to that question is probably that you don't qualify for a visa. Immigration laws exist beyond the #$%& USA, and you can't up and move even if you want to and can afford to!

My anger is tempered by the irony that the people most likely to say such things are also the people who think illegal immigrants are pouring into the country without going through the legal channels. "So, which side of the fence* are you on when it comes to immigration?" *pun intended

[secretlyevil]

Local news affiliate article, kind of a follow up.

www.wfla.com/news/polk-county/mother-of-lakeland-6th-grader-arrested-after-argument-over-pledge-of-allegiance-speaks-out/1792583972

[GilliC]

Feb 19, 2019 6:43:02 GMT -5 secretlyevil said:

Local news affiliate article, kind of a follow up.

www.wfla.com/news/polk-county/mother-of-lakeland-6th-grader-arrested-after-argument-over-pledge-of-allegiance-speaks-out/1792583972

Any chance of a summary?

This site is currently unavailable to visitors from the European Economic Area while we work to ensure your data is protected in accordance with applicable EU laws.

[af1212]

Feb 19, 2019 8:06:23 GMT -5 GilliC said:

Feb 19, 2019 6:43:02 GMT -5 secretlyevil said:

Local news affiliate article, kind of a follow up.

www.wfla.com/news/polk-county/mother-of-lakeland-6th-grader-arrested-after-argument-over-pledge-of-allegiance-speaks-out/1792583972

Any chance of a summary?

This site is currently unavailable to visitors from the European Economic Area while we work to ensure your data is protected in accordance with applicable EU laws.

Kid said he did t want to stand for pledge because the anthem And flag are “racist against black people”.

Mom said she had told him to stand up for himself. “Because in the way this world is today if you don’t stand up for yourself no one will”

Sub didn’t know was school policy to not force to stand/say pledge. Sub called administration, and eventually after some conflict the SRO arrested kid.

Sub has been removed from school and will not be allowed back. The decision to arrest was entirely that of the SRO - not the school - says statement from the schooo.

[mala]

Feb 19, 2019 8:06:23 GMT -5 GilliC said:

Feb 19, 2019 6:43:02 GMT -5 secretlyevil said:

Local news affiliate article, kind of a follow up.

www.wfla.com/news/polk-county/mother-of-lakeland-6th-grader-arrested-after-argument-over-pledge-of-allegiance-speaks-out/1792583972

Any chance of a summary?

This site is currently unavailable to visitors from the European Economic Area while we work to ensure your data is protected in accordance with applicable EU laws.

Mom stands by her kid, she taught him to stand up for himself. Kid says he won't say it because it's racist. School says he was removed because he was talking back to the teacher and admins, not because he wouldn't stand for the pledge (which is not required). Claim he made "threats" & the sub wasn't aware that students aren't required to stand for the pledge. School resource officer chose to follow through with the arrest. Sub has been dismissed and will not be allowed back to the school.

[secretlyevil]

Feb 19, 2019 8:06:23 GMT -5 GilliC said:

Feb 19, 2019 6:43:02 GMT -5 secretlyevil said:

Local news affiliate article, kind of a follow up.

www.wfla.com/news/polk-county/mother-of-lakeland-6th-grader-arrested-after-argument-over-pledge-of-allegiance-speaks-out/1792583972

Any chance of a summary?

This site is currently unavailable to visitors from the European Economic Area while we work to ensure your data is protected in accordance with applicable EU laws.

“What happened that day, my son was doing what I asked him to do. I told my son that you stand up for yourself. Because in the way this world is today, if you don't stand up for yourself, no one will,” Talbot told NBC Nightly News.

The confrontation escalated and the boy was removed from class.

The Polk County School District issued a statement, saying:

The student was arrested after becoming disruptive and refusing to follow repeated instructions by school staff and law enforcement. This incident followed the daily Pledge of Allegiance in the classroom.

To be clear, the student was NOT arrested for refusing to participate in the pledge; students are not required to participate in the Pledge of Allegiance. Unfortunately, a substitute teacher was not aware of this, and she engaged in an exchange of words with the student and called the school's administration to come to her classroom. The school's resource officer, who is permanently assigned to the campus, also responded to the substitute's classroom but was not called by the administration regarding the incident.

The School Resource Officer (SRO) made the decision to arrest the student. No one from the school requested charges to be pressed or for an arrest to be made.

ETA: The teacher was asked to leave the school after giving a written statement and will not be asked to substitute in Polk County again.

[nessness]

Is this the new norm, for middle school students to be arrested for being "disruptive"? Run-of-the-mill classroom disruption seems well within the bounds of something schools should be able to handle without involving law enforcement.