This is just a small part of how I feel lately. I truly feel lost and have no clue how to handle any of it. It seems like it would be such a simple decision to walk away from the Church, but it just isn't and I have no excuse for that.
Perhaps only tangentially related: I didn’t know until a couple years ago that there are other types of Catholicism other than Roman Catholic. Some of them are affirming. I have an acquaintance who gay and is a priest. He and his husband were married in their church.
Perhaps only tangentially related: I didn’t know until a couple years ago that there are other types of Catholicism other than Roman Catholic. Some of them are affirming. I have an acquaintance who gay and is a priest. He and his husband were married in their church.
And he's Catholic? This is new information for me as well.
Perhaps only tangentially related: I didn’t know until a couple years ago that there are other types of Catholicism other than Roman Catholic. Some of them are affirming. I have an acquaintance who gay and is a priest. He and his husband were married in their church.
And he's Catholic? This is new information for me as well.
They are not in communion with Rome so they are not under the pope and don't necessarily follow the same rites. But there are a number of Catholic religions (like Ukrainian/greek, etc).
Perhaps only tangentially related: I didn’t know until a couple years ago that there are other types of Catholicism other than Roman Catholic. Some of them are affirming. I have an acquaintance who gay and is a priest. He and his husband were married in their church.
And he's Catholic? This is new information for me as well.
Post by bugandbibs on Feb 20, 2019 10:00:47 GMT -5
I struggle with this. I am Catholic and believe deeply in my faith. A main principle of the Church is that it is made up of the people and I believe that change can only come from within. I feel a duty to be part of that change. It is hard for me to reconcile my local parish with the Church as a whole.
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I struggle with this. I am Catholic and believe deeply in my faith. A main principle of the Church is that it is made up of the people and I believe that change can only come from within. I feel a duty to be part of that change. It is hard for me to reconcile my local parish with the Church as a whole.
I feel the exact same way. My local parish is very liberal and inclusive and involved heavily in the social justice movement. My local parish is Franciscan and it seems like every Franciscan church I know is amazing. I often wonder if they will be kicked out some day.
The Church refuses to evolve and/or take responsibility for its actions. If a priest is gay, guess what he is already a priest and he is already gay, the only one of those two that can change is priesthood . So let’s use our Catholic hearts to embrace EVERYONE. Stop covering sex abuse scandals and help authorities convict the guilty. I believe if these two things happened most of the people who have stopped attending Mass would go back. It is extremely hard to defend the Church right now.
I struggle with this. I am Catholic and believe deeply in my faith. A main principle of the Church is that it is made up of the people and I believe that change can only come from within. I feel a duty to be part of that change. It is hard for me to reconcile my local parish with the Church as a whole.
I feel the exact same way. My local parish is very liberal and inclusive and involved heavily in the social justice movement. My local parish is Franciscan and it seems like every Franciscan church I know is amazing. I often wonder if they will be kicked out some day.
It’s because the Franciscans are a Catholic order with their own hierarchy/connection to the pope outside of the diocese system, specifically, they do not report to the local bishop. Same for Jesuits. I was raised in the Jesuit-Roman Catholic tradition and it is so special.
I have been devastated by the abuse and cover-ups. I believe quite strongly in the social justice message of the Catholic Church. I don’t know if this pope and especially these cardinals can see a clear path and ACT to change in the ways I need them to change.
I’m very thankful to my parents for never forcing this church on to us even though they married in the church and agreed to raise us Catholic. Instead of devoting our lives to fixing an unfixable institution where my voice wouldn’t even mean anything in the hierarchy I can focus on other things. Community, love, tradition, and faith can and do exist outside the Catholic Church.
As a former Catholic, a lot of this is just "same shit, different day" to me at this point. None of this is new or surprising, even though it's always horrifying.
I can understand, to an extent, wanting to stay and "be part of the change" because change only comes from within, because I hear that sentiment a lot from my still-Catholic family and friends. But my question back to them is what are most people actually doing to "be" the change, beyond privately professing their disgust in what has happened? (I don't mean to direct this specifically at you guys, karinothing or bugandbibs . I know how strong Catholic ties/culture/guilt can be). Continuing to show up and financially support local parishes still supports the overall institution and hierarchy, even if indirectly.
Money talks, and like any other institution the Catholic Church doesn't want to lose its prominence/power. With overall trends of church attendance declining, they will likely have no choice at some point but to make substantial changes. I personally just couldn't wait around in the meantime for that to take place.
I agree with this. Everyone always says that they want to change it, but then everyone continues to be complicit because they don’t want to be the next one driven out. I’m not going to look at my gay friends and say “but it’s a strong part of my identity.” My very Catholic side of the family says it doesn’t count to go to any other church but until people stop the financial support and stop showing up and filling the pews, it will continue.
I struggle with this. I am Catholic and believe deeply in my faith. A main principle of the Church is that it is made up of the people and I believe that change can only come from within. I feel a duty to be part of that change. It is hard for me to reconcile my local parish with the Church as a whole.
I feel the exact same way. My local parish is very liberal and inclusive and involved heavily in the social justice movement. My local parish is Franciscan and it seems like every Franciscan church I know is amazing. I often wonder if they will be kicked out some day.
This is how I feel. Our parish is Vincentian.
I struggle. I can't bring myself to abandon my church to the bigots, but at the same time I agree that things are not changing as they should. We drive across town to attend church, as the parish closer to home is more conservative. I'm vocal about my views and how they relate to my faith.
I don't blame people, at all, who have chosen to leave.
I feel the exact same way. My local parish is very liberal and inclusive and involved heavily in the social justice movement. My local parish is Franciscan and it seems like every Franciscan church I know is amazing. I often wonder if they will be kicked out some day.
It’s because the Franciscans are a Catholic order with their own hierarchy/connection to the pope outside of the diocese system, specifically, they do not report to the local bishop. Same for Jesuits. I was raised in the Jesuit-Roman Catholic tradition and it is so special.
I have been devastated by the abuse and cover-ups. I believe quite strongly in the social justice message of the Catholic Church. I don’t know if this pope and especially these cardinals can see a clear path and ACT to change in the ways I need them to change.
I was hearing today that the Pope, who I have been so excited about, said that people who are “excessively criticizing” the Church are of the devil. That killed any remaining hope I had things might improve.
Post by katieinthecity on Feb 20, 2019 13:06:00 GMT -5
I was raised in what I now know to be the conservative wing of the Catholic church, though when I learned it I didn't realize there was a liberal option. I was taught that pre-marital sex, birth control, homosexuality, and of course abortion, were all direct routes to hell, with no room for negotiation. As my worldview expanded I realized that my personal beliefs were incompatible - and given the black/white dichotomy I'd been taught, the only option I saw was to leave the church. I left for good about 15 years ago but it was a cleavage that started in high school and took the better part of a decade. My parents were devastated that DH and I didn't marry in the church 10 years ago, and it still causes consternation with my Mom, though she has basically come to the realization that if she wants to be in our lives she has to drop it.
My parents directly tied the Church to the Republican party, so I was shocked to learn as a teenager that Catholics were democrats (and at first, of course, I bought the line that they were not really Catholic, since their votes for pro-choice politicians were grounds for spiritual excommunication, according to my church). At this point in her life my Mom has completely intertwined the two so much that for her, voting for a Democrat would be akin to leaving the church.
Without getting into dirty details, the Church has caused strife and pain in my family going back generations, so I cannot reconcile why my Mom stayed/stays, or why my grandparents did for that matter. I honestly still have a hard time understanding why ANYONE would stay in the church, and I have to constantly remind myself that my experience of it is not the experience many people had. My experience ruined me for all religion, and I know I am not alone. If the Church wants to stay relevant, it needs to adapt.
An article was posted here about 6 months ago about the terrible things that were done to children at Catholic boarding schools in Vermont (hopefully memory serves correctly). Of all the things that the Catholic church has covered up, for some reason that article struck the strongest nerve for me. After reading the article, I cried in the car on my drive home form work. I cried for the children and I cried because I was mourning the loss of my Catholic self. I had been an active member of a Catholic church. Like previous posters, I excused my continuing membership because I belonged to an open-minded, liberal parish. But, I could not longer stand the hypocrisy in the church and in myself. I haven't been to mass since, and I don't feel guilty about it.
I am considering joining a Methodist or Lutheran church near to me. Both are supporters of LGBTQ rights, and fly pride flags and participate in pride activities. If any former Catholics have recommendations for one denomination or the other, feel free to share your thoughts.
... I am considering joining a Methodist or Lutheran church near to me. Both are supporters of LGBTQ rights, and fly pride flags and participate in pride activities. If any former Catholics have recommendations for one denomination or the other, feel free to share your thoughts.
There are a lot of former Catholics in our Episcopal church.
... I am considering joining a Methodist or Lutheran church near to me. Both are supporters of LGBTQ rights, and fly pride flags and participate in pride activities. If any former Catholics have recommendations for one denomination or the other, feel free to share your thoughts.
There are a lot of former Catholics in our Episcopal church.
Two Jesuit Priests I know and my sister with the same degree in Divinity as a Jesuit Priest (but a woman, so...) who all worked for the Boston Catholic Diocese in the past, have started going to and being active leaders of Episcopal churches.
I am a former Catholic turned ELCA Lutheran (though I mainly go only on holidays and stuff like Vacation Bible School). I left when I thought about it and realized that there has barely been a moment in time in the church’s history (if ever) that there hasn’t been massive corruption and power plays of some kind. I started thinking it seemed more like a corporation to benefit the elite leaders than a church to benefit the flock and wider community (I like the new pope, but the warring factions with him disgust me). I gave up and moved on. I had gone to Catholic school my whole life, so it was a fixture of my life for a long time, and was a sad moment to officially say I was done.
... I am considering joining a Methodist or Lutheran church near to me. Both are supporters of LGBTQ rights, and fly pride flags and participate in pride activities. If any former Catholics have recommendations for one denomination or the other, feel free to share your thoughts.
There are a lot of former Catholics in our Episcopal church.
Episcopal has a lot of the ritual elements that might feel comfortable for a catholic too.
I was raised Congregationalist, and although I'm no longer a believer, I feel very comfortable with the teachings. As I remember it: do good for others, be kind, don't be so comfortable with yourself that you stop questioning and seeking. They're part of the UCC and very affirming.
I was raised going to a church with a very liberal Jesuit priest. I didn't realize until leaving home how unusual he was. It took some years, but I ended up leaving the church entirely as a result.
With the news in recent years, I definitely know that was the right decision for me.
An article was posted here about 6 months ago about the terrible things that were done to children at Catholic boarding schools in Vermont (hopefully memory serves correctly). Of all the things that the Catholic church has covered up, for some reason that article struck the strongest nerve for me. After reading the article, I cried in the car on my drive home form work. I cried for the children and I cried because I was mourning the loss of my Catholic self. I had been an active member of a Catholic church. Like previous posters, I excused my continuing membership because I belonged to an open-minded, liberal parish. But, I could not longer stand the hypocrisy in the church and in myself. I haven't been to mass since, and I don't feel guilty about it.
I am considering joining a Methodist or Lutheran church near to me. Both are supporters of LGBTQ rights, and fly pride flags and participate in pride activities. If any former Catholics have recommendations for one denomination or the other, feel free to share your thoughts.
Have you visited each church? That’s what I would recommend since churches can have such a different vibe based on the congregation, minister, etc. fwiw, I grew up in a united Methodist church and there were several people on staff who had left the Catholic Church.
As a former Catholic, a lot of this is just "same shit, different day" to me at this point. None of this is new or surprising, even though it's always horrifying.
I can understand, to an extent, wanting to stay and "be part of the change" because change only comes from within, because I hear that sentiment a lot from my still-Catholic family and friends. But my question back to them is what are most people actually doing to "be" the change, beyond privately professing their disgust in what has happened? (I don't mean to direct this specifically at you guys, karinothing or bugandbibs . I know how strong Catholic ties/culture/guilt can be). Continuing to show up and financially support local parishes still supports the overall institution and hierarchy, even if indirectly.
Money talks, and like any other institution the Catholic Church doesn't want to lose its prominence/power. With overall trends of church attendance declining, they will likely have no choice at some point but to make substantial changes. I personally just couldn't wait around in the meantime for that to take place.
These are things I have been doing as part of my Catholic parish:
Stopped giving money to the Church. I have been very vocal about this, and every time any charitable contributions come up (we frequently have requests to contribute to special charities or causes), I let the priest and anyone else who will listen know that we do not give directly to the Church any more. My tithing will support non-Catholic charities, instead. This required writing letters to a number of organizations to whom we regularly donated. I am apologetic, but firm that we will not donate until there is transparency and I can be sure that I am not giving to an organization that currently supports former priests accused or convicted of assault.
Met with the bishop. Asked questions. I wasn't satisfied with all of his answers, especially about transparency. He thought the diocese was being plenty transparent. I asked him where I could find the information I was looking for about history. He said on the diocesean website. I pressed him, and asked him to show me. He couldn't find it on the website. A week later, the information I asked for was added to the page, along with a whole new section about transparency.
Reformed volunteer training and screening in the Church. Yes, the predatory priests are the main problem, but so is reporting and awareness. It used to be that if you volunteered with kids, you had to go to training for recognizing signs of abuse and sexual predators. Now it is required for all volunteers (regardless of whether your program works with kids), and recommended for every adult parishioner. Our church has been hosting these training programs more frequently to make it easy for everyone to attend.
Change the culture of putting priests on a pedestal (work in progress). I set the curriculum for our youth religious ed programs, and I had many conversations with other program directors about changing the way we teach "in persona Christi"-- basically, this tenet says that when a priest performs a sacrament instituted by Christ, he is not doing it, Christ is. However, for many (especially kids) this can get sort of blurred so that people see the priest as some special, infallible Christ-like authority figure. So for me, my students will not hear this phrase from my lips or learn this tenet from me. At all.
Hold every priest accountable. I ask every priest-- the one at my parish, when I visit other parishes, even ones I meet at other random events to discuss it with me. How do you include this in your homilies? Where do you think the Church is going next? What actions would you like to see taken? How can people like me make change? And I don't just ask once. I use the teaching in each homily I hear as a way to ask the priest how the Church should act on the sex abuse scandal.
Don't get sucked in to the "Not all priests" attitude. I do not feel one bit guilty maintaining a guilty until proven innocent outlook. It's time for reconciliation? The parish better make alternative arrangements to the priest going off in a private room alone with my children or they don't go. Now we have it set up so that there are open spaces in the church where reconciliation can be held privately, but still be visible.
Don't get complacent. Keep the pressure on. Be vocal. Don't let anyone forget. If I get to a point where I don't think I'm able to keep contributing to the change, or if I'm just plain tired and let it drop, I'm out. Because the only reason I'm still in the Church is so I can change it.
Nurse Cramer had stopped speaking to Nurse Duckett, her best friend, because of her liaison with Yossarian, but still went everywhere with Nurse Duckett since Nurse Duckett was her best friend....Nurse Cramer was prepared to begin talking to Nurse Duckett again if she repented and apologized.
For those who are conflicted about leaving, have you ever conversation with someone who was really hurt by the church? I'm not talking only about the sexual abuse survivors, though their trauma should not be forgotten in this conversation. Instead, there are no shortage of people who love(d) the church but can't live within the guidelines because they are gay or needed to have an abortion or had to get divorced or or are struggling with end of life options. Do you know how truly horrible it is for them to be at the point in their life when the need the church more than anything, and to find the doors closed?
Right now, plenty of people may be staying with the Church because they feel as though their priest and parish are "good." But these relationships to the church is only as good as your ability to control it at any given moment. That's not always going to be the case. Do you want to be on your death bed, and have the hospital send someone you don't know to unleash fire and brimstone and judgment on your life during your final moments?
And @@@ warning here, but your kids are going to face challenges in their own life. Do you want them to be struggling with their sexuality or an unplanned pregnancy, walk into a church, and made to feel like utter shit at the moment in their life when they need a source of light and spiritual guidance more than any other time in their life?
There are no shortage of stories by people who grew up in "good" parishes who were let down during their most challenging moments. Perhaps reading some and reflecting on that might give you the push you need to leave.
Post by aprilsails on Feb 20, 2019 16:13:46 GMT -5
On ESF’s comment I can easily see this happening. I broke with the Catholic church when they refused to marry me in my parish since I had been living in sin with DH. I didn’t particularly like the priest at the time but it was ridiculous. I was hurt and upset after a life of basically following all of the rules except that one. I can’t imagine being in a place of actual need and being rejected.
I am considering joining a Methodist or Lutheran church near to me. Both are supporters of LGBTQ rights, and fly pride flags and participate in pride activities. If any former Catholics have recommendations for one denomination or the other, feel free to share your thoughts.
I can't speak to Methodist, but I can to Lutheran. I was brought up Lutheran and my mom is a Lutheran pastor. *Most* churches will be quite liberal. My mom does straight and gay marriages. If you haven't been to a Lutheran service, you should visit. The services are quite similar to Catholic. Nicene Creed, Apostles Creed, all of that. I'm happy to answer questions you have to the best of my ability.
... I am considering joining a Methodist or Lutheran church near to me. Both are supporters of LGBTQ rights, and fly pride flags and participate in pride activities. If any former Catholics have recommendations for one denomination or the other, feel free to share your thoughts.
There are a lot of former Catholics in our Episcopal church.
Yep. Episcopal or Lutheran (ELCA) are going to likely be the best fit for people looking to leave the Catholic Church because the format of the worship is very similar. The governing structure of each is a bit different - Episcopal bishops serve for life while Lutheran bishops serve on a rotation. There are other differences, but both denominations are probably worth checking out.
Post by aprilsails on Feb 20, 2019 16:22:56 GMT -5
I prefer to attend my step-family’s Anglican Church now. That being said, I haven’t church shopped much and do not attend regularly. Mostly when my grandparents are singing or a family member is being baptized or married. The service is somewhat different than the Catholic service but not much really. The minister is an absolutely phenomenal woman and our local diocese supports LGBTQ people and gay marriage. Apparently there are a few different divisions within the Anglican Church though so this may be dependent on your region.
I am considering joining a Methodist or Lutheran church near to me. Both are supporters of LGBTQ rights, and fly pride flags and participate in pride activities. If any former Catholics have recommendations for one denomination or the other, feel free to share your thoughts.
The United Methodist Book of Discipline, which is basically the governing document for the church, says that homosexuality is "incompatible with Christian teaching." There is currently an effort to evaluate how to handle that, as progressive wings want it removed but traditionalists want it to stay, but I am not hopeful it is going to shake out on the right side of history. Until we moved we attended a "Reconciling" Methodist church, which means they had adopted a "welcoming statement" and are affirming, but I was troubled by belonging to a larger organization that was so hurtful.
We're currently attending a Presbyterian Church (USA), and have been happy so far both with our local congregation and the denomination.
A couple of resources I've used when looking for churches are gaychurch.org and churchclarity.org. I found these much more useful than posts on our neighborhood Facebook group where people are shouting that their non-denom church welcomes "everyone!" Um, the info about marriage in your church tells me otherwise...
Trying for #3; FET 8/18 -- BFN. Leaving things up to chance for now... After three years, three IVFs, and two FETs, we finally have our miracle babIES!
I am considering joining a Methodist or Lutheran church near to me. Both are supporters of LGBTQ rights, and fly pride flags and participate in pride activities. If any former Catholics have recommendations for one denomination or the other, feel free to share your thoughts.
The United Methodist Book of Discipline, which is basically the governing document for the church, says that homosexuality is "incompatible with Christian teaching." There is currently an effort to evaluate how to handle that, as progressive wings want it removed but traditionalists want it to stay, but I am not hopeful it is going to shake out on the right side of history. Until we moved we attended a "Reconciling" Methodist church, which means they had adopted a "welcoming statement" and are affirming, but I was troubled by belonging to a larger organization that was so hurtful.
We're currently attending a Presbyterian Church (USA), and have been happy so far both with our local congregation and the denomination.
A couple of resources I've used when looking for churches are gaychurch.org and churchclarity.org. I found these much more useful than posts on our neighborhood Facebook group where people are shouting that their non-denom church welcomes "everyone!" Um, the info about marriage in your church tells me otherwise...
I’d honestly just steer clear of non-denominational churches generally. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯