ISIS Brides Trying to Return Home

[wise_rita]

I am fascinated by these stories, both in the USA and abroad.  It seems like their home countries are happy to let these women (and inevitably their children) rot in refugee camps and just pretend they don't exist.

Hoda Muthana is one of comparatively few Americans in this boat.  I read about a British woman who tweeted in the height of her ISIS days: there's lots of Brits and Aussies here - step it up, Americans.  She's an interesting case because per NYT she was born in the USA but her father was a diplomat, thus not giving her the same rights as any other native born.  Though her father seems to have been discharged from the diplomatic service before she was born, therefore she should be.


www.nytimes.com/2019/02/20/world/middleeast/isis-bride-hoda-muthana.html?smid=fb-nytimes&smtyp=cur&fbclid=IwAR0kP0RsPqHNrCUxRiiq3out-9uuyRZSOF8tOUvv4NPwB_gA6YC8EIzB2mo

What interests me most is this line from that article:

A majority of American men caught on the battlefield were the subject of sealed indictments and have been repatriated to face charges.

So men are brought back to US soil for prosecution but with women they are bending over backwards to delegitimize their status as citizens.  Does not compute (though I know there's plenty of details we're not seeing).

In a wider context this interests me because of the precedent it's setting surrounding citizenship, when it's given and when it can be taken away.

[GilliC]

Maybe I'm cynical, and maybe I'm giving the administration too much credit, but I keep thinking that the optics of charging these women for joining a terrorist organization would be terrible, so it's a political move to try to just keep them in limbo indefinitely.

[rupertpenny]

I think joining ISIS is reprehensible, but if she has a US Passport denying her entry to the US is unconscionable. A citizen is a citizen, period.

[wise_rita]

To expand this beyond the US, Shamima Begum - who is unrepentant in her joining of ISIS - is having her citizenship stripped by Great Britain.

They can't leave her stateless, so are banking on the fact that she has Bangladeshi (or some such) citizenship because her mother was from there.

This administration aside, western countries are jumping through hoops to drop these women as citizens so they can wash their hands of what to do with them.

[mrsukyankee]

Feb 21, 2019 6:37:38 GMT -5 wise_rita said:

To expand this beyond the US, Shamima Begum - who is unrepentant in her joining of ISIS - is having her citizenship stripped by Great Britain.

They can't leave her stateless, so are banking on the fact that she has Bangladeshi (or some such) citizenship because her mother was from there.

This administration aside, western countries are jumping through hoops to drop these women as citizens so they can wash their hands of what to do with them.

I am so pissed off at this. It's pandering to our populists in the country who don't understand the idea that a child may have been groomed by a cult to join them (and she was 16 when she went, so yes, a child). It's horrible. At the worst, bring her back and charge her with something. For me, this is yet again, punishing women in a very different manner than men.

[wise_rita]

Feb 21, 2019 8:37:13 GMT -5 mrsukyankee said:

Feb 21, 2019 6:37:38 GMT -5 wise_rita said:

To expand this beyond the US, Shamima Begum - who is unrepentant in her joining of ISIS - is having her citizenship stripped by Great Britain.

They can't leave her stateless, so are banking on the fact that she has Bangladeshi (or some such) citizenship because her mother was from there.

This administration aside, western countries are jumping through hoops to drop these women as citizens so they can wash their hands of what to do with them.

I am so pissed off at this. It's pandering to our populists in the country who don't understand the idea that a child may have been groomed by a cult to join them (and she was 16 when she went, so yes, a child). It's horrible. At the worst, bring her back and charge her with something. For me, this is yet again, punishing women in a very different manner than men.

That's what's jumping out at me.  Possibly because the men are so much likely to be killed so there's fewer of them?

[Susie]

Feb 21, 2019 6:37:38 GMT -5 wise_rita said:

To expand this beyond the US, Shamima Begum - who is unrepentant in her joining of ISIS - is having her citizenship stripped by Great Britain.

They can't leave her stateless, so are banking on the fact that she has Bangladeshi (or some such) citizenship because her mother was from there.

This administration aside, western countries are jumping through hoops to drop these women as citizens so they can wash their hands of what to do with them.

Apparently Bangladesh's ministry of foreign affairs has said she does not have citizenship there, although it seems murky.  I read somewhere that she's looking to the Netherlands (where her husband is from).  Her son is a UK citizen though so finding where both of them can be citizens seems even more complicated.

www.bbc.com/news/uk-47310206

[cville]

I keep thinking about the children. How do you ensure future hate? Let the children languish stateless with their mothers after their fathers were killed or imprisoned.

[DesertMoon]

I think it's reasonable to strip citizen ship from a person who joins a terrorist group that means to do harm to your native land. Treason is treason. A lot of people world wide are stateless. Many people born in Jordan and China and some other countries will never qualify to be a citizen of the country they are born in. It's not a foreign concept to use statlessness as punishment. I do feel very sad for their children though.

[karinothing]

Feb 21, 2019 10:18:05 GMT -5 DesertMoon said:

I think it's reasonable to strip citizen ship from a person who joins a terrorist group that means to do harm to your native land. Treason is treason. A lot of people world wide are stateless. Many people born in Jordan and China and some other countries will never qualify to be a citizen of the country they are born in. It's not a foreign concept to use statlessness as punishment. I do feel very sad for their children though.

I guess I don't get why we wouldn't want her back her to prosecute. Our laws also do not permit us to strip citizenship from native born citizens.

[Michelle]

Feb 21, 2019 10:46:47 GMT -5 karinothing said:

Feb 21, 2019 10:18:05 GMT -5 DesertMoon said:

I think it's reasonable to strip citizen ship from a person who joins a terrorist group that means to do harm to your native land. Treason is treason. A lot of people world wide are stateless. Many people born in Jordan and China and some other countries will never qualify to be a citizen of the country they are born in. It's not a foreign concept to use statlessness as punishment. I do feel very sad for their children though.

I guess I don't get why we wouldn't want her back her to prosecute. Our laws also do not permit us to strip citizenship from native born citizens.

Between this, and the OP thoughts of wise_rita and opining of GilliC, it seems that if they were men the general feeling of the nation would be, "bring 'em back and let's execute for treason!" whereas for women there may be more of an emotional sympathy. So to avoid owning the situation the administration would rather abandon them.

My position is if they want to come home on their U.S. passports they should be allowed to and should stand for conviction of treason just like a man, facing similar consequences. 

The longer term concern for national security may be - what if they want to sacrifice themselves as traitors and bring indoctrinated children in as citizens who then may turn into home-grown jihadists? But that seems pretty anti-american and anti-Muslim because we wouldn't have the same concerns about the children of a christian traitor. 

[stever]

Terrorist abettors are terrorists. Bring them home and charge them. Leaving them and their babies to rot stateless is not only wrong but is setting us up for a crap ton of trouble in the future.

[pixy0stix]

I feel like I could write a long and lengthy post about this detailing all my conflicting thoughts. It would all end up with - I don't know what the right answer is for this is.

[Deleted]

Feb 21, 2019 10:46:47 GMT -5 karinothing said:

Feb 21, 2019 10:18:05 GMT -5 DesertMoon said:

I think it's reasonable to strip citizen ship from a person who joins a terrorist group that means to do harm to your native land. Treason is treason. A lot of people world wide are stateless. Many people born in Jordan and China and some other countries will never qualify to be a citizen of the country they are born in. It's not a foreign concept to use statlessness as punishment. I do feel very sad for their children though.

I guess I don't get why we wouldn't want her back her to prosecute. Our laws also do not permit us to strip citizenship from native born citizens.

Is there anyway they think whatever we could charge her with wouldn’t amount to much actual punishment? I don’t know laws surrounding it but if they don’t have proof she did anything other than marry an ISIS fighter maybe any charges wouldn’t be that much.

[cville]

Feb 21, 2019 11:21:26 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

I feel like I could write a long and lengthy post about this detailing all my conflicting thoughts. It would all end up with - I don't know what the right answer is for this is.

Exactly. I waffle just about every time I think this through.

[Aloe Vera]

A lot of European countries are struggling to come up with a solution. These people could be prosecuted in their native country but the laws aren't as harsh as in the US. Very few people would get life sentences for treason. The max they would get is under 20 years, and they would probably be out after a couple years.

These men and women decided to leave voluntarily (we might argue they were indoctrinated) to conduct Jihad on their fellow citizens. They evaded detection at the borders since minors can't leave without their parents' consent. And if they weren't minors, European countries are watching closely for Jihad candidates. Now that they realized ISIS isn't all that great, especially for women, they want to go back. They were trained to kill their fellow citizens and took tremendous steps to get to that point. Most countries don't know what to do with these people. Can they be rehabilitated after a few years? What about the children?

[Velar Fricative]

I am abroad right now and this is all I’m hearing about on BBC World News. I want these people sent back to their countries of citizenship and prosecuted. Throw away the damn key for all I care. I have no sympathy for any of them. But to revoke their citizenship is wrong. Are we revoking citizenship for everyone else who commits treason or some other heinous crime? Or are we only doing that for people that are unlucky enough to not be American “enough” because their ancestors didn’t come on the Mayflower? I don’t trust this administration to not have underlying motives here.

[pixy0stix]

Are we really revoking citizenship if they've publicly renounced it? The US citizen burned her passport and put the act on social media. Now whether that was coerced or not is another matter.

[hocus2]

Feb 21, 2019 12:46:39 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Are we really revoking citizenship if they've publicly renounced it? The US citizen burned her passport and put the act on social media. Now whether that was coerced or not is another matter.

  She had not gone through any formal process of citizenship renouncement. Burning a passport is probably protected as speech.  The only reason this case has much legal interest is because her father was a diplomat and her birthright citizenship is a a mater of debate. If that wasn't the issue then this would be a very simple case.  As I understand it US law doesn't allow for revoking citizenship for illegal acts. I think a case about this went to SCOTUS recently.

 travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/legal/travel-legal-considerations/us-citizenship/Renunciation-US-Nationality-Abroad.html

[wise_rita]

Renouncing US citizenship is a structured, lengthy and now expensive process.

With the USA being one of only two countries to tax its citizens on worldwide income, the IRS has two eyes on the finances of US "persons" (so, green card holders, too) abroad at all times.

If burning your passport on social media were enough to cut ties then A LOT of wealthy and upstanding individuals would be on that train in a hot minute.

[DesertMoon]

Feb 21, 2019 10:46:47 GMT -5 karinothing said:

Feb 21, 2019 10:18:05 GMT -5 DesertMoon said:

I think it's reasonable to strip citizen ship from a person who joins a terrorist group that means to do harm to your native land. Treason is treason. A lot of people world wide are stateless. Many people born in Jordan and China and some other countries will never qualify to be a citizen of the country they are born in. It's not a foreign concept to use statlessness as punishment. I do feel very sad for their children though.

I guess I don't get why we wouldn't want her back her to prosecute. Our laws also do not permit us to strip citizenship from native born citizens.

Maybe because the women didnt commit any acts or they were sold or passed around and probably abused.

[carmenere]

Feb 21, 2019 19:20:01 GMT -5 DesertMoon said:

Feb 21, 2019 10:46:47 GMT -5 karinothing said:

I guess I don't get why we wouldn't want her back her to prosecute. Our laws also do not permit us to strip citizenship from native born citizens.

Maybe because the women didnt commit any acts or they were sold or passed around and probably abused.

The administration’s bigoted rhetoric and policies really put it in a bind on this issue. Bring the women here for trial, and it’s possible that they will ultimately go free or serve minimal time for the reasons you stated - that makes the administration look weak. If they successfully prosecute and punish a woman who has been abused and coerced, the optics of that are terrible, too. There’s no good solution so they’re copping out.

[pixy0stix]

Feb 21, 2019 19:20:01 GMT -5 DesertMoon said:

Feb 21, 2019 10:46:47 GMT -5 karinothing said:

I guess I don't get why we wouldn't want her back her to prosecute. Our laws also do not permit us to strip citizenship from native born citizens.

Maybe because the women didnt commit any acts or they were sold or passed around and probably abused.

There's this, but I also read an article today that women are a big fighting force for ISIS now. They're being trained as soldiers/terrorists. There's just no way to know. www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jul/23/number-of-women-and-children-joining-isis-significantly-underestimated

[karinothing]

Are the men really prosecuted or are they just thrown in Guantanamo?

[NewOrleans]

I saw this just the other day! Belgium is dealing with this, too.
@@ in the article

www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/their-parents-joined-isis-they-were-raised-in-the-caliphate-can-they-come-home/2019/02/15/38a783a2-142d-11e9-ab79-30cd4f7926f2_story.html?utm_term=.54109e2de16a

[mrsukyankee]

Just wanted to come in here to say that I believe that this won't stand up in court in the EU. But it was easier for Sajid Javid to do this to take any heat off of him that would come from the Conservative voters - he can then blame the courts for the young girl being given her citizenship.

[lurkydoodle]

I have nothing to add, but I'm really glad I'm not the only one feeling a lot of feelings about this - not all of them on the same page, or even out of the same book.

[sonrisa]

While i think a lot of how the US is handling this is reprehensible, this particular situation is truly complicated.

The administration's might be using this to revoke or at least halt birthright citizenship for the children of undocumented immigrants who entered without inspection. (A goal they've stated before)

If you are here on an A-1 or A-2 visa and give birth, your child is not subject to birthright citizenship. It's part of the diplomatic immunity package.

That exemption acts as a protection for the diplomat and their family. They can serve in another country without fear that a child born during that time will be subject to lifetime of the obligations of citizenship. Those obligations include things like eligibility for the draft, the obligation to pay US taxes wherever you reside, etc. US citizenship could also put the child at risk in future countries of residence. 

The argument from the family is that she was born a month after her father lost his job as a diplomat, and therefore no longer subject to diplomatic immunity. 

Yes, she was issued a passport, but the USCIS worker sitting in a cubicle Nebraska or Missouri received a package of documents with a brith certificate. A birth certificate issued at a US hospital which would not have asked about diplomatic immunity when filling out the forms. 

For the most part, diplomatic immunity is something the possessor affirmatively asserts. If they fail to do so when at the hospital filling out forms, I don't think that would have waived it and subjected her to birthright citizenship if she'd been born a month earlier.

It really comes down to the status of an exdiplomat after they have been dismissed but are still in the country.
Are they out of status? In which case the litigation of this case is really a referendum on birthright citizenship of every other birth to an out of status immigrant.
Or is there some grace period where you are still covered by the A-1/A-2 status until the next visa comes through or you leave? I don't know.

[debatethis]

Feb 21, 2019 10:46:47 GMT -5 karinothing said:

Feb 21, 2019 10:18:05 GMT -5 DesertMoon said:

I think it's reasonable to strip citizen ship from a person who joins a terrorist group that means to do harm to your native land. Treason is treason. A lot of people world wide are stateless. Many people born in Jordan and China and some other countries will never qualify to be a citizen of the country they are born in. It's not a foreign concept to use statlessness as punishment. I do feel very sad for their children though.

I guess I don't get why we wouldn't want her back her to prosecute. Our laws also do not permit us to strip citizenship from native born citizens.

They do in a few very specific circumstances - namely, committing treason or joining the military of some foreign countries. But...all of that would happen AFTER a trial, on US soil, in which she would be found guilty. None of which has happened yet. And statelessness is illegal in international law. Plus, I'm more concerned about creating generational ISIS via this woman's son. Let her rot at Gitmo or in supermax for all I care, but follow due process first. I don't want to give the Trump Admin ANY wiggle room to just up and unilaterally declare that he can revoke citizenship at will. 

[Birdie]

I have a stronger opinions on what should be done with the children than the mothers. I think the western nations should try to get the children back one way or another. They’re citizens after all (at least the child of the American is). Rotting in a refugee camp will do nothing positive for those kids. As far as the mothers go, I feel like they made their own beds. However, I also don’t agree with them being treated differently than men.