Did everyone read this NYT article?

[shakinros]

Sounds about right to me:
www.nytimes.com/2019/04/26/upshot/women-long-hours-greedy-professions

I’m reflecting on our choices here in Chez Shakinros to have two average white collar careers with some flexibility in each. I’m not sure we ever considered that one of us would have the BIG JOB, which I know some of you have & some of you support your spouse’s big job. Neither one of us is positioned to get big promotions or to attend all kid things but I think it’s the best we can do for us.

I could see H & I going on with this arrangement through all of our working years. Do you see yourself maintaining the same balance of careers that you have now?

(And for the single and soon-to-be-single parents on the board, how does this dynamic play out in your coparenting?)

[waverly]

Rings true for me.

DH has the big job in consulting. I have the lower paid, family friendly, flexible job. There is no way that he could have succeeded and had kids without me. However, I’ve done pretty much everything for 9 years. He is there for major surgeries. He wasn’t even there for DS’s tonsils and adenoids surgery. He has done some doctor appointment, I’ve done 85% of them. I’ve done 95% of sick days, snow days, school meetings, after school events, sports, Scouts activities etc. You get the idea.

He has now moved to a job where it appears to have a lot more flexibility. It’s only been 2 weeks, so who knows but he’s been home at 5:30 or 6pm every night which is pretty life changing for everyone. He said he felt like he was detoxing. One of his co-workers in late 40’s maybe died in an airplane from NY to London. He just didn’t want to go that way and with the travel and stress of consulting it’s entirely possible.

I’m getting a raise yay. But at my lower salary and his higher consulting salary he made 3-4 times more. With his lower salary and my higher it’s more like 2 times plus 20k and a bonus.

[sandandsea]

The link didn’t work for me but I’m guessing it’s the article “women did everything right then work got greedy”. Dh sent it to me yesterday and we both thought it rung true. We are the exception. We both have “big” jobs (not the biggest, but big) and are making it work. We both have some limited flexibility and work 45-80 hours a week and the kids are both at daycare/school from 7:30-5:45. Almost all of my overtime is done at home after the kids go to bed while dh does most of his in the office.

Our salaries are about the same but dh makes more than double what I make after stock options. I carry the mental load and do more family stuff but he works significantly more. I wish we could both work 40 hours but the overtime premium is REAL in both our industries and we wouldn’t be where we are without the OT we have put in. I’m pushing for my final promotion to the top this year and significant OT is part of the expectation to prove yourself. We also waited 9 years into our careers before having kids so OT was easy as dinks.

I wish there could be a culture change to get back to 40 hours but with smartphones and being connected 24/7 I only see it widening. Those who are willing to do 24/7 will get ahead and been seen as harder working and more committed whereas those wanting more balance are seen as less committed because they have other priorities. I’d rather have balance than get ahead faster and never have a family.

We both have agreed that we will continue to both push until we decide it doesn’t work anymore or want to change it. But the further up the ladder we can get only helps land the next position and have more opportunities and choices when then time comes.

[rere]

I've definitely had to scale back over the years due to his job. His schedule varies and his policies are very unfriendly for children. There is no way I could have a job that was inflexible. I do all the mental, coordinator, most of the appointments, school stuff. Because on days he is at work, he is basically unavailable. That's one reason I was part time for 10 years. While I have caught up to him almost, my job is still way more flexible.

He still puts in more hours than me per week and has the availability to earn more with more hours, where my salary is always the same.

[mae0111]

When I was working, our salaries were about equal, and my bonus was about 2-3 times what he got (my bonuses were 65-70% of my salary). I still carried 100% of the mental load - schedules, activities, camps, 90% of nanny sick days, school volunteering, etc.

I stepped back because my job was all consuming - calls 3 nights a week, mornings before the kids got up, weekend work. DH traveled a ton - he worked for a global company and was literally the only person in his role. So I’d commute an hour each way to answer emails the whole time I was trying to hang out with my kids, then rush them to bed so that I could get on calls.

So right when I left, DH started his own company. By the end of his first full year, he had earned more than both of us put together in the previous few years - including bonuses. But he frequently acknowledges that there’s no way he could have done that without me being home.

I’m doing a little work here and there. I’m barely breaking 5 figures. But it’s the right thing for us right now. I don’t have to work - we are fine financially. But any work I pick up has to work into our family, because I can’t rely on DH. He’s a one-man show - if he doesn’t work, he doesn’t get paid, and I can’t make him turn down a $165/hr job for my $50/hr work.

[twinmomma]

Honestly, one of the major nails in the coffin of my marriage was the mess over who got the "big job" and who didn't. I left my totally crazy job that required last minute travel and stress to find a somewhat less crazy job where I was still the major breadwinner. New job paid more than double what he would ever be able to make, I'm in management, and in theory should have been considered the big job, with his job the one that had more free time and flexibility. But that never worked out. I was the breadwinner, the mental load carrier, and the one who would have to shuffle things around to accommodate his work schedule and whatever he needed/wanted to do. I was over it.

Now that we have to split parenting duties, it has forced him to figure out how to manage things on his days. Granted, he no longer has that old job, so that has helped. But he has stepped up because it is not assumed that I will be there at his beck and call like it was when we were married. I can say no and he is forced to figure things out.

[waverly]

twinmomma- I know what you mean if we were divorced H would have to step up. But I think if he were still in consulting it would have to be a night nanny or move super close to his parents. If he has the job he has now then it’s probably adding in before care and arranging that I would do the occasional nights he travels (maybe 2 a month).

Not on the divorced side, but I was talking in my other forum why if people have 2 biggish jobs then they have to get a nanny or 2 nannies. Also that early childcare is lower paid and mostly women means something as well...I can’t 100% explain it or why maybe historical sexism and something economists could explain better?

Anyone here have childcare and homecare divided evenly? Or is that just an urban myth that we all believed in our early 20’s which ended the day we got pregnant?

[mommyatty]

My husband is a stay at home dad. My job has always been the big job, and I travel a ton. I still do most of the planning (vacation, birthday parties, etc), but he does most of the housework and day to day stuff like packing lunches and keeping up with permission slips.

But our kids are about to be 5 and almost 7 and he has never cut their nails. Not once. So I’m very aware that I handle a crapload more than I probably give myself credit for.

[waverly]

Apr 27, 2019 19:12:24 GMT -5 mommyatty said:

My husband is a stay at home dad. My job has always been the big job, and I travel a ton. I still do most of the planning (vacation, birthday parties, etc), but he does most of the housework and day to day stuff like packing lunches and keeping up with permission slips.

But our kids are about to be 5 and almost 7 and he has never cut their nails. Not once. So I’m very aware that I handle a crapload more than I probably give myself credit for.

DH has never cut nails except maybe once when they were newborns. Ugh the nails. He routinely weasles out of breathing treatments. If it weren’t for me - the kids wouldn’t have survived.

[traveltheworld]

I make 3 times what DH makes so I suppose mine is considered the "big job", but I carry the mental load (because I'm a control freak and love planning), and make it to a lot more appointments and kids stuff than DH does as I also have a lot more flexibility than he does. Nevertheless, I think I wouldn't have been able to get to where I am today if DH had a big job himself. I spent the early years of my career working non stop, so the overtime premium to get ahead thing is totally real and I've found it to be totally worth it in my case. But I definitely needed DH to have the less demanding job and take care of the kids.

Over the last few years, he has talked about getting a more demanding job, and I've stayed silent and secretly hoped that nothing would come of it. Given all that DH has done for my career, if he wanted to pursue something more demanding, I wouldn't and couldn't say no, but I really don't want things to change.

[sdlaura]

Apr 27, 2019 10:24:12 GMT -5 sandandsea said:

The link didn’t work for me but I’m guessing it’s the article “women did everything right then work got greedy”. Dh sent it to me yesterday and we both thought it rung true. We are the exception. We both have “big” jobs (not the biggest, but big) and are making it work. We both have some limited flexibility and work 45-80 hours a week and the kids are both at daycare/school from 7:30-5:45. Almost all of my overtime is done at home after the kids go to bed while dh does most of his in the office.

Our salaries are about the same but dh makes more than double what I make after stock options. I carry the mental load and do more family stuff but he works significantly more. I wish we could both work 40 hours but the overtime premium is REAL in both our industries and we wouldn’t be where we are without the OT we have put in. I’m pushing for my final promotion to the top this year and significant OT is part of the expectation to prove yourself. We also waited 9 years into our careers before having kids so OT was easy as dinks.

This is similar to us.  I think there are a couple ways we mostly make it work:
1. We live in San Diego, which tends to be a place where people sacrifice the absolute top salaries for more flexibility (male or female), and
2. Our hours are staggered, with DH working east coast market hours on the west coast.  So he works 6-4 and I work 8:30-5:30 when I’m not traveling, so our kids are in daycare or school only from 8-4:30.  Of course there’s some work after kids are in bed, too.

I make a higher base than DH but he typically gets crazy bonuses.  That has gone down recently as his firm has lost some assets.  We’re both partners/shareholders in small to medium sized privately owned firms and have both been there 11 years, so that has bought us some flexibility too.  I think we have a pretty sweet deal, but DH still dreams about the higher paying jobs many of his b-school friends have.  They also all have SAH wives because their schedules are so insane.

[sdlaura]

waverly a friend of mine and her husband have everything pretty evenly divided. They’re both engineers and have 2 kids. But I agree with you on urban myth for most two working parent families I know. I have the more demanding job and definitely carry the mental and physical load. DH does do a lot though - there’s just so much to be done with 3 kids 6 and under.

[shakinros]

Apr 27, 2019 23:37:18 GMT -5 sdlaura said:

waverly a friend of mine and her husband have everything pretty evenly divided. They’re both engineers and have 2 kids. But I agree with you on urban myth for most two working parent families I know. I have the more demanding job and definitely carry the mental and physical load. DH does do a lot though - there’s just so much to be done with 3 kids 6 and under.

I think we’re about as evenly divided as anyone I know. We now make the same amount of money. I plan and schedule all the things. DH does all dropoffs and pickups because his commute is shorter. He has internalized that he has to ASK ME if he needs me to do a pickup, not just drop the job and expect me to notice and deal with it. I arrange childcare and babysitting and contractors and camp and travel and and and. He cooks dinner 90% of the time. He WFH on fridays so I schedule all special appts then and he takes care of them.

Basically, I am more mental load, he is more execution. It’s still not even but it’s really not bad.

I don’t think this would have been possible if he hadn’t spent last year unemployed. He did many more SAHD things last year (not 100% because of his health, but a lot), and kept many of them when he went back to work.

[waverly]

I agree that when DH was unemployed he helped out a ton more. Definitely more a function of the job on how much he helps.

[divanerd]

I guess I'm the big job though it doesn't seem like it at all.

I still handle household details like I'm the COO/CFO and hubby is more like CEO

It gets exhausting at times but hubby can't handle details it drives me crazy

[sunbutter]

Based on relative pay check and less flexibility, DH has the “big job.” This is so relative though because I have coworkers with my job who consider that the “big” job in their homes and have stay at home parents to support it. It usually isn’t an issue for us until something really important comes up for me at work and then I need DH to step up and help me work out the schedule. I wish in those circumstances, he would acknowledge how much I do that for him and work harder at helping me during those times. (Like stop ignoring my emails, ask a coworker to switch on call shift, take a PTO day, etc.). But unfortunately, we usually have to fight before he gets in gear. It’s ridiculous. When I travel, I have to figure out all the home logistics. When the role is reversed, he doesn’t have to think about anything other than himself.

I always could work more. I fight to protect my time and am getting better at saying no. I wish I had more time to read (work related reading) and if I didn’t have kids, I probably would. That would make me better at my job. I do just enough to get a good rating but I know I could do more.

I have the entire mental load at home and handle probably 75% of the execution. DH is wired to get away with this. He had parents that followed him around with a schedule to make sure nothing fell through the cracks. Now he has a wife who didn’t have that parental influence and has been independently making shit work since she was 14.

He has tried and is trying to improve. But sometimes I know it is laziness that is why he isn’t on top of things (rather than ability) and that really pisses me off. I know that me cleaning up his mess doesn’t help him learn. I won’t let things with the kids slide because I don’t want them to be victims of my lessons. However, there are certain things that I just ignore so that he has some balls in his court...like our microwave. It has been broken for months. It drives him mad, but not enough to actually do anything about it...so we still have a broken microwave.

In our world, it has much to do with personalities rather than actual jobs. He would be like this if he had my job too.

[2chatter]

sunbutter nailed my issue - most people in my role have a SAH parent or live in parents or a nanny or two. DH has the big job between us, but my job is the big job for many of my colleagues. There’s a little tension around DH being pretty dismissive, but this last year my comp finally got to where it belongs, so I have told him it’s okay that he makes more, but we could not survive without my income and he needs to stop being so ... rude and self centered, and I am not his admin or the nanny. Example - he had his son drop off a prescription to me during the work day on Friday, expecting me to run it to the pharmacy and get it. I was in a meeting, no one gave me a heads up about this, Fridays are crazy, it was ten minutes before I had to get the kids and I had already provided the insurance card and step by step instructions on how to do this. It was easier for DH to have SS drive over and delegate to me than to make his son adult, so he punted. I left it for DH and texted him a picture with no commentary.

He’s trying, but we have gotten to where I do 100% of the kids stuff even on weekends unless I totally cannot - like I am already somewhere else with another child and someone can’t get a ride with friends or I make plans. So I have started to make more kid free plans or I have zero down time.

DH’s ideal is I quit my job, find a similar role locally and move up to executive roles in the next 5 years. If we lived in NY I would already be there/on that path. There are a few challenges - chief among them that he would never shoulder any part of the mental load of three kids, would not want to ramp up participation in things like doctor appointments (we average 3/week currently, plus my mom) and honestly probably would not be capable of doing it all without losing his mind. So I don’t see that happening.

[mrspez07]

I would say that DH and I have settled into a pretty equitable parent/life balance. Though there has been periods of resentment.
I left a pretty fast moving company after DS2 (who is coming up in 7), and tried my own company and another company, finally landing where I am now. I still have a lot of friends at the original company, and with the good economy, they are doing some enviable projects (design field) and also working a lot. I’m at a company currently that values family and as long as I’m getting my work done, flexibility is acceptable, and I’m the only mom there, the dads use it as much as I do. I make enough to be comfortable, and have more of a say than I would at a larger company. Being small, not sure how we’re going to weather the next downturn though. I am sometimes jealous of their projects but not their workload.
DH makes more than I do, and is the only one in his role in the local office, so he’s been able to work from home some and be flexible. He has wished here and there to take a different job, but the flexibility he has is worth it and he admits it.
He goes to work a bit early and I go later, he takes care of sports practices, I manage schedule and we tag team on the weekends. We’re lucky. I do also see it in other’s relationships, but it may also come from a place of privilege.

[soccermama]

Apr 27, 2019 20:38:28 GMT -5 waverly said:

Apr 27, 2019 19:12:24 GMT -5 mommyatty said:

My husband is a stay at home dad. My job has always been the big job, and I travel a ton. I still do most of the planning (vacation, birthday parties, etc), but he does most of the housework and day to day stuff like packing lunches and keeping up with permission slips.

But our kids are about to be 5 and almost 7 and he has never cut their nails. Not once. So I’m very aware that I handle a crapload more than I probably give myself credit for.

DH has never cut nails except maybe once when they were newborns. Ugh the nails. He routinely weasles out of breathing treatments. If it weren’t for me - the kids wouldn’t have survived.

I will piggyback onto the never cutting nails and add in, what about meals?  If I wasn't there, I swear DH would feed our kids corndogs every.single.night.  I'm like -- what is wrong with you?  I am ok with a corndog every now & then, but not every night.  come on dude. 

[soccermama]

I have more traditional hours, M-F. DH is a firefighter so he works 24 hr shifts. Obviously the burden is on me when he is at work, but he has 4-day breaks and is able to be off during the week so that helps out a lot with the kids, stuff around the house, etc.

[mommyatty]

soccermama- I mentioned I travel a lot for work. I also do most of the cooking since I really like to. But DH has a few meals he can make that the kids will eat. But when I travel, it’s “just too hard” for him to cook, so they eat fast food for every single meal. And my kids don’t eat hamburgers or sandwiches and one won’t eat French fries, so that means they have Chick Fil A and Taco Bueno every night, with pizza sometimes making the rotation. WTF, dude? You are home all day and your mom is there every night for dinner. Fire up the stove and make some spaghetti.

[rere]

Apr 29, 2019 9:33:23 GMT -5 mommyatty said:

soccermama- I mentioned I travel a lot for work. I also do most of the cooking since I really like to. But DH has a few meals he can make that the kids will eat. But when I travel, it’s “just too hard” for him to cook, so they eat fast food for every single meal. And my kids don’t eat hamburgers or sandwiches and one won’t eat French fries, so that means they have Chick Fil A and Taco Bueno every night, with pizza sometimes making the rotation. WTF, dude? You are home all day and your mom is there every night for dinner. Fire up the stove and make some spaghetti.

Dh basically only does chicken strips and grills burgers. Sometimes chili in the winter. He is very capable of cooking other things, but left up to him, those are the only 2 choices. I come in on days he is at work with full meals that contain actual vegetables.

[polecat8]

I am the breadwinner and DH is now a stay-at-home dad. We knew this going into our marriage since I got a degree in Engineering and he got a degree in Fine Arts.
When DD was born, DH worked a part time job overnight making minimum wage. Our parents were able to help with some babysitting, so it worked well for us. DH cut his hours a bit when DS1 was born. Then when I got pregnant with DS2, we made the decision for DH to quit his job since there was no way our parents could care for an infant and a toddler. We've been lucky that I don't have to travel much for my job, if at all (probably once in the past 5 years). DH is supportive when I have to work late or on weekends. My job is still flexible enough that I can volunteer for school events or go to doctors' appointments. DH and I divide and conquer, where needed.
But the mental aspect of planning still falls on me for the most part. There are certain tasks, like dinner and laundry that fall 100% on DH. We share a google calendar to keep track of kids' activities. DH used to have major anxiety about using the phone, like to call someone to fix the furnace, etc. I've helped him to overcome that anxiety by saying I'm so busy at work at that if he doesn't do it, it won't get done. Giving him a deadline also helps. At this point, we have a good system of dividing the work. I think DH would like to go back to work when all of the kids are in school, but he doesn't know what career path at this point. So he's been dabbling in art and software projects at home.

[librarychica]

I read this and it really resonated with me and provided some lovely data points as I’ve preached this preach to H before.

This dynamic has played out a couple of ways in our lives. I flat refused to quit my job (which like sunbutter is the “big” job for some coworkers but is lower in pay/status/commitment in comparison to H) when our oldest was born. I basically told H that I managed my career, he could damn well manage his for once and I didn’t care that his management was giving him “isn’t that Library’s problem” vibes if he couldn’t hop on a call at no notice in the 1.5 hours between the time I left for work and the nanny arrived. He ended up quitting and going out on his own.

The other has been that even though I didn’t quit, I used my accumulated work capital negotiating my butt off for flexibility and temporarily reduced hours while my male contemporaries negotiated for money, higher status roles, etc. So my career has progressed steadily but more slowly than it likely would have if I’d had a stay at home spouse at home. While H’s business has grown with my support. Now, he is perfectly supportive of my career and capable of caring for his kids and I have no real complaints, but when something has to give it is usually me.

[librarychica]

Apr 29, 2019 9:33:23 GMT -5 mommyatty said:

soccermama- I mentioned I travel a lot for work. I also do most of the cooking since I really like to. But DH has a few meals he can make that the kids will eat. But when I travel, it’s “just too hard” for him to cook, so they eat fast food for every single meal. And my kids don’t eat hamburgers or sandwiches and one won’t eat French fries, so that means they have Chick Fil A and Taco Bueno every night, with pizza sometimes making the rotation. WTF, dude? You are home all day and your mom is there every night for dinner. Fire up the stove and make some spaghetti.

I am mostly commenting on the fact that I also have a kid who won’t eat French fries. What’s with that? Who doesn’t like French fries?

Also clearly your H should add spaghetti, tacos, bean quesadillas and grilled chicken to his repertoire. Eyerolls for days.

[covergirl82]

I have a more flexible job and less pay than DH's job. He is starting a new job in a few weeks at a director level of a $3+ billion company (which is a subsidiary of a $6+ billion company), but it sounds like it might be a little more flexible than his last job, so we'll see if that rings true. At least his commute is reduced from 30 minutes to 20. If he ever moves up to the VP level, I may see if I can go part time.

I pretty much carry 100% of the mental load at home and make sure all the bills are paid on time. I also schedule and take the kids to all appointments. DH will occasionally make dinner and do dishes to help out on weeknights. DH does get the kids on the bus 2x a week, but I do most pick ups.

[erinshelley21]

Apr 29, 2019 9:23:41 GMT -5 soccermama said:

I have more traditional hours, M-F. DH is a firefighter so he works 24 hr shifts. Obviously the burden is on me when he is at work, but he has 4-day breaks and is able to be off during the week so that helps out a lot with the kids, stuff around the house, etc.

This is me. FF with 24 hr shifts. My job is traditional about 90% of the time but throws a curve ball every once in a while. If DH isn't home, MIL backs me up. Our lives would not work without her. My job is very flexible, so I try to not use her more than M-F 830-5 but it happens.

I could make more working somewhere else, but for this season of our life, I'm fine with taking it slow the next few years as long as my boss allows it. He knows my family comes first and hasn't put any requirements out there.

[freezorburn]

I think it's odd how the article (and another analysis that I saw on a TV news show) treats this like it's a new phenomenon. Hasn't it always been this way?

So, XH earns way more than I ever will. He also likes to travel, and during our marriage sought out responsibilities that would entail travel, so that he could sit on an airplane and rack up miles. This is partly why I have DS 70% of the time. The other reason is that DS and I currently live in the house that we lived in when the recession hit. Thankfully we have hung on to it (were never in danger of losing it). But what XH experienced at work during that time makes him not want to be anywhere near this town. I think that's a bit extreme, but he feels what he feels. He only comes back for DS.

In terms of co-parenting, XH pays monthly child support. We are supposed to do an income-based adjustment later this year, so that will be interesting. XH has DS Thursday PM to Monday AM every other weekend, plus we have a holiday schedule, and starting last year he took a whole month of the summer. It took a while for things to settle down, but for what it's worth, things are pretty good now. When we were married, XH did his share of taking care of DS and household duties but he wasn't communicating with me about a whole host of things, so even meaningful parenting things got wires crossed. Now he has to be fully present when he has DS because I'm not around to conveniently provide answers, or to give him an executive report on how our little project is going. And he can figure out for himself how DS is doing, by spending time with him. Funny thing is, he always had the ability to do that, but he was too mad at me for taking up space and breathing air to see it.

So, yeah. I still get the majority of child-rearing time, more challenges juggling the work schedule. Looking for work now, and definitely limited in how much time I can put into it. And my degree isn't in a super-lucrative field, so I'm just hoping I can make enough to stay out of debt, not deplete my savings, and maybe prepare a bit for retirement or a catastrophic illness. Is that so much to ask?

[waverly]

freezorburn, I don't know I think it's one of those things that is not acknowledged. Like when my family told me as a girl I could do anything. They didn't say I could do anything as long as I don't marry or have kids. They didn't tell me that DH's job might take precedence- I did kind of figure that out on my own when he got his MBA, and we kind of decided that together. They didn't tell me if we both had big jobs the only way to make it work is to hire a nanny or what that means for other women in low-paying child care jobs. They didn't tell me that H and I would fight over childcare and other responsibilities. They didn't tell me about the lack of support that families face from every direction. They didn't tell me I would be paying off student loans (although they did advise me to live at home during college) forever, and paying $$$$ in childcare because that wasn't a thing back then. My mom was a SAHM. They told me to get a job so I can support myself in a divorce, but they didn't tell me that if I have a lower paying job it still might not work out for me in a divorce.


For us the in- equality didn't really happen until he graduated with his MBA. Some in school because the MBA is very time intensive, but we didn't have kids. And it didn't happen until we had kids. We both had equal medium jobs before, and I actually helped him a lot in paying off debt. We met when I was 18, and didn't marry until I was 25, and didn't have kids until I was 30, so I guess for many years in college, post college and grad school we were more equal. Having children disrupted that completely. And the business school degree. He makes more money than what he was before (engineer) but sometimes I wonder was it really worth it? All that travel that he did, and all those student loans?

[dizzycooks]

waverly I think you nailed it.