A lot of gripes I get, but I don’t understand this one. Dany burnt the city to the ground! She massacred women and children! That’s not a tough decision, that’s going mad. I still don’t think it’s fitting for her character (because it feels rushed, not because I don’t think she’d get there eventually), but we have seen her bend this way before. I really don’t get the “Jon is mediocre” feel. He’s fought in how many battles? Won how many battles? (With help, of course). His moral compass is straight as an arrow. He’s united people under his leadership. I don’t get what’s so ugh about him.
Which battles did Jon win again?
Like, on his own, by being a master tactician? He's a soldier, yes and a reasonably good one but he's also a reluctant one and a reluctant leader. Quite frankly he's pretty BAD at tactics and really only knows one style of battle which is to do formations and to fight with his big heavy sword and charge into things head on. He had to be completely rescued during the Battle of the Bastards by Sansa, he fled during Hardhome, his amazing leadership got Viserion killed, during the Battle for Winterfell he yelled and during this battle he was *kinda* a minor player. I mean, let's face it--the guy is no master general. As far as uniting people...I mean again--kinda. Remember back when he went to first see Lyanna Mormont and DAVOS had to get her on board lol!
Both characters have strengths and weaknesses. It's not like Dany has been clearly marching towards madness the entire show. She united a ton of people, freed thousands of slaves, built huge armies and worked from nothing. She showed a lot of kindness and worked (at a pace that made a lot of people want to fast forward) to improve herself as a leader as well. Now, because she burned it all and the show is presenting her in this way we all are grasping onto that evidence that she was cray and Jon was some great leader. It's just interesting.
Like, on his own, by being a master tactician? He's a soldier, yes and a reasonably good one but he's also a reluctant one and a reluctant leader. Quite frankly he's pretty BAD at tactics and really only knows one style of battle which is to do formations and to fight with his big heavy sword and charge into things head on. He had to be completely rescued during the Battle of the Bastards by Sansa, he fled during Hardhome, his amazing leadership got Viserion killed, during the Battle for Winterfell he yelled and during this battle he was *kinda* a minor player. I mean, let's face it--the guy is no master general. As far as uniting people...I mean again--kinda. Remember back when he went to first see Lyanna Mormont and DAVOS had to get her on board lol!
Ok I disagree with pretty much all of this. He won the battle at the wall against the wildlings by himself and he brought the wildlings into the fold. I didn't see Sansa out there with a sword during the BotB. Yes she got the Knights of the Vale but I consider it a joint effort. Fleeing during Hardhome? That's really going to be held up against him? He had like 10 guys on an intended rescue mission against infinite zombies, what else was he supposed to do there?
I also don't figure how he got Visarion killed, they dragons were under Dany's orders when that happened.
He isn't a master general but Dany isn't either. Her strategy is just to burn shit down. She never even held a sword until she was dumped off of Drogon at Winterfell. I said last week the master military minds are all dead (Tywin, Robb, Tarly), this is what's left.
I just don't get where people are coming from. This is a Song of Ice and Fire. Jon is ice (Stark) and fire (Targ). All signs pointed to Jon from the beginning.
Yes! Thank you! I’m getting the feeling that the fact that we think Jon would make a better leader than Dany (who literally just burned the city she wished to rule to the ground) somehow means we’re buying in to misogyny. Nah.
So this episode pissed me off in a lot of ways - Euron and Jamie? Wat? that made no sense, and the scorpions were THE weapon last week whereas now Drogon can avoid them with ease? And I feel like Arya retreating was completely out of character for her.
All that aside-- I think Dany's final descent into madness was brilliant. When she sat on the wall on top of Drogon knowing full well she had won- THAT was IMO the best moment of the last 2 seasons. You can see it all over her face that winning wasn't enough. She lost everything. Missandei, Jorah, John, Rhaegal, Viserion, she's been betrayed, rejected, winning isn't enough.
So there she is in front of the place her ancestors built and even though she's won, she's still lost and that's not going to satisfy her. It's totally fitting that John's rejection is the straw that broke the camel's back also.
Fuck it. Dracarys. Perfection.
Also, I think next week we will see Dany sit on the iron throne and become the queen of ashes. Likely right before she dies. I'd love to see her become the last one standing though because it would truly be a return to the beginning a la the Mad King and highlight Dany's failure to break the wheel- if we think of time as a wheel and here we are, back to the beginning, full circle.
Ok I disagree with pretty much all of this. He won the battle at the wall against the wildlings by himself and he brought the wildlings into the fold. I didn't see Sansa out there with a sword during the BotB. Yes she got the Knights of the Vale but I consider it a joint effort. Fleeing during Hardhome? That's really going to be held up against him? He had like 10 guys on an intended rescue mission against infinite zombies, what else was he supposed to do there?
I also don't figure how he got Visarion killed, they dragons were under Dany's orders when that happened.
He isn't a master general but Dany isn't either. Her strategy is just to burn shit down. She never even held a sword until she was dumped off of Drogon at Winterfell. I said last week the master military minds are all dead (Tywin, Robb, Tarly), this is what's left.
I just don't get where people are coming from. This is a Song of Ice and Fire. Jon is ice (Stark) and fire (Targ). All signs pointed to Jon from the beginning.
Yes! Thank you! I’m getting the feeling that the fact that we think Jon would make a better leader than Dany (who literally just burned the city she wished to rule to the ground) somehow means we’re buying in to misogyny. Nah.
Thank you! This has always been about Jon. Ugh I'm getting so frustrated. And Sansa is not leaving the North, possibly Winterfell ever again (literally all she talks about is going home and supporting the North) so people who want her to be on the iron throne, just be disappointed ahead of time.
I'm LOLing at Euron's ship, The Hot Topic Assistant Manager, and "Jon gets that look on his face like he's trying to remember the difference between pimientos and pistachios again."
Random comment: I watched Seasons 1-7 prior to Episode 1 of #8. Am I the only one that noticed that Jon Snow's mouth was hanging open through the entirety of Season 1? lol
"Why would you ruin perfectly good peanuts by adding candy corn? That's like saying hey, I have these awesome nachos, guess I better add some dryer lint." - Nonny
This is what DH thinks - though, he's pretty sure Jamie is dead, but Cersei will crawl out of the rubble.
I'm super torn about last night's episode. I was severely underwhelmed with Jamie and Cersei's demise (?) - it felt so cheap and was such a letdown! But I loved Cleganebowl and how that ended. It was apt. Now, Dany burning the shit out of King's Landing, I mean - yes, she's been building up to it, I can see that. I guess I feel like since Varys went out like he did, and all the rest of it was done so poorly that it undermined this too. I don't know how to explain it.
Serious question: In terms of plot, why in the world would Cersei crawl out of the rubble? And then do what? In the series finale?
I'm just trying to play this out in my mind where this story would go.
I have no idea, haha. I told him it probably wouldn't happen - it was pretty obvious they were crushed and there was no way out. But I'll ask him what his ideas are. LOL
Post by litebright on May 13, 2019 12:03:46 GMT -5
Also, for all that people have been concerned about the Golden Company bolstering Cersei's forces and that I saw some " "Ooooo, new character somebody Strickland!" this week, the Golden Company was sure a blip. I don't even think Strickland got a line, he just got to look pretty on a horse for a minute before running for his life.
Cersei would've been better off investing all that treasury money she spent on merceneries, on more scorpions and/or developing a faster reloading mechanism.
Random comment: I watched Seasons 1-7 prior to Episode 1 of #8. Am I the only one that noticed that Jon Snow's mouth was hanging open through the entirety of Season 1? lol
I think this is honestly one of the reasons I only made it about 5 episodes into the whole series. Couldn't stand my favourite book character looking so clueless constantly haha. So I just read spoilers instead.
I have a lot of thoughts but I wanted to post this. I think all of the Starks’ arcs have been to some degree finding who they are. The girls especially were ripped out of their home and family and had to survive. Is Arya a killing machine? Or is she Arya Stark? Can she have a life when the dust settles? She has lost so much of her identity by necessity so what happens when she’s in a place where she can choose who to be? They were isolated and in that world, coddled until the moment it blew up in their face. Same for Sansa. I think she’s made her peace with who she is and can take what she’s learned and use it and still realize she is Sansa Stark, daughter of Ned and Catelyn. In the books it’s clearer that she has an identity crisis because she has to pretend to be Alayne Stone for longer.
I think last night Arya realized she could be both who she’s learned to be and Arya Stark. She can use those skills but not be those skills.
I don't understand why people are saying nobody killed Cersei. Dany killed her. Maybe not in hand to hand combat but she destroyed her city and the building that was her home. I have to imagine her intent was largely to ensure Cersei died. Maybe it would have been satisfying to see someone stab her or strangle her but I think having her safe place in the city she ruled literally crumble on top of her was fitting.
I agree. And I don't think it was an "easy" death. Her army and city got destroyed in front of her eyes, with relative ease and it still took her a long time to accept the war was lost. The only people she truly loved and cared for were her children and they're all dead/will die. I don't know if Jaime being there was comforting to her since she wanted him dead. Maybe, since she is an opportunist, she might have felt better knowing she wouldn't die alone as a queen. Over the last seasons, she's shown how merciless and powerful she could be. And she died under the rubles of the Red Keep while trying to escape. I think that's a good death for her. It was the opposite of grandiose.
I don't hate what happened. I just hate how it happened. I get that this show is a HUGE commitment to everyone involved, but I feel like they way they cut the last two season short and put a hard stop on the show really did a disservice to everyone.
I don't think Jaime trying to save Cersei was crazy. But to have that happen just after the know knighting of Brienne and all of that felt false.
I don't think Dany burning the city was crazy. But to only give her 3 episodes to realize that fear was all she had was rushed.
They decided that ending when they wanted to end it was more important than the story and so everything suffered for it.
The Hound moments were some of the highlights of the episode, because they were so earned. Everything he did led him to that moment, and it wasn't a rush to get there.
Also, for all that people have been concerned about the Golden Company bolstering Cersei's forces and that I saw some " "Ooooo, new character somebody Strickland!" this week, the Golden Company was sure a blip. I don't even think Strickland got a line, he just got to look pretty on a horse for a minute before running for his life.
Cersei would've been better off investing all that treasury money she spent on merceneries, on more scorpions and/or developing a faster reloading mechanism.
I think the only time we heard him talk was during the "where are the elephants" discussion with Cersei earlier this season.
Also, for all that people have been concerned about the Golden Company bolstering Cersei's forces and that I saw some " "Ooooo, new character somebody Strickland!" this week, the Golden Company was sure a blip. I don't even think Strickland got a line, he just got to look pretty on a horse for a minute before running for his life.
Cersei would've been better off investing all that treasury money she spent on merceneries, on more scorpions and/or developing a faster reloading mechanism.
I think the only time we heard him talk was during the "where are the elephants" discussion with Cersei earlier this season.
And about how Euron killed over "cheating" in gambling (Euron wasn't sure who was the cheater lol)
"Why would you ruin perfectly good peanuts by adding candy corn? That's like saying hey, I have these awesome nachos, guess I better add some dryer lint." - Nonny
Post by laladypoet on May 13, 2019 14:58:51 GMT -5
saw this on tumblr and 100% agree: Saying that Mad Queen Dany was “foreshadowed” because she had some morally grey scenes is the equivalent of saying Jon was destined to be a dictator because he executed a man that was begging for mercy and didn’t compromise when the northern lords disagreed with his choices, or that Arya was destined to be a psychopath because she cooked men into pies, or that Sansa was destined to become a sadist because she was fascinated and smiled when she had hounds eat a guy’s face, or that Tyrion was destined to be vicious because he wished he could poison everyone in Kings landing, or
She made an example of the Capitol. When she told jon I will have love or fear and she said...fear it is then. She made her decision. They will burn. It's not suprised. She torched those dothraki widows shes crucified people I have slowly watched her become paranoid the closer she gets to the throne. She is the mother of dragons and a survivor but she also an inbred Targaryen with madness in her DNA. You push and push and take and take from her you betray her she suffers losses she is not unbreakable. I was expecting this. In fact I've known she would go mad early on. I'm here for it. I watched her rise and I'll see her fall.
no she didn't torch dothraki widows; she torched the khals who were going to rape her. the widows were outside, and she told Jorah and Daario to spare the young widow who she walked to the bathroom with.
dany has always been on the side of innocents. she told Yara the iron born coulnd't rape and pillage anymore. she gave water to crucified slaves on the walk of punishment and tried to help them down. she didn't attack astapor because she didn't want to hurt anyone. she always criticized her father and brother for being cruel. she saved people from slavery and didn't initially want to buy the unsullied because she didn't like to keep the cycle of slavery going. she tried to prevent the kalasar from raping people. she told the unsullied to harm no innocents. she didn't want to reopen the fighting pits.
I'm not saying she couldn't have gone mad. but at least in the books they showed a gradual madness, like her having hallucinations. but on the show it went from the woman I mentioned above to "burn them all" overnight. yes there were "hints" and maybe this was always how it was going to turn out, but the execution was sloppy and rushed. and her "hints" at becoming mad were no worse than the indications that the other people everyone loves were bad as well. I just thought it was showing she was as complex as everyone else.
"Why would you ruin perfectly good peanuts by adding candy corn? That's like saying hey, I have these awesome nachos, guess I better add some dryer lint." - Nonny
She made an example of the Capitol. When she told jon I will have love or fear and she said...fear it is then. She made her decision. They will burn. It's not suprised. She torched those dothraki widows shes crucified people I have slowly watched her become paranoid the closer she gets to the throne. She is the mother of dragons and a survivor but she also an inbred Targaryen with madness in her DNA. You push and push and take and take from her you betray her she suffers losses she is not unbreakable. I was expecting this. In fact I've known she would go mad early on. I'm here for it. I watched her rise and I'll see her fall.
no she didn't torch dothraki widows; she torched the khals who were going to rape her. the widows were outside, and she told Jorah and Daario to spare the young widow who she walked to the bathroom with.
dany has always been on the side of innocents. she told Yara the iron born coulnd't rape and pillage anymore. she gave water to crucified slaves on the walk of punishment and tried to help them down. she didn't attack astapor because she didn't want to hurt anyone. she always criticized her father and brother for being cruel. she saved people from slavery and didn't initially want to buy the unsullied because she didn't like to keep the cycle of slavery going. she tried to prevent the kalasar from raping people. she told the unsullied to harm no innocents. she didn't want to reopen the fighting pits.
I'm not saying she couldn't have gone mad. but at least in the books they showed a gradual madness, like her having hallucinations. but on the show it went from the woman I mentioned above to "burn them all" overnight. yes there were "hints" and maybe this was always how it was going to turn out, but the execution was sloppy and rushed. and her "hints" at becoming mad were no worse than the indications that the other people everyone loves were bad as well. I just thought it was showing she was as complex as everyone else.
I agree 100%. I am surprised so many say they saw this coming. Perhaps it was because of heavier foreshadowing in the books/prophecies that were not a part of the show. To me it seemed extremely out of character. She is (was) an imperfect heroine, but torching a city full of innocent people for absolutely no reason was extremely unexpected.
Also - should we expect Jon to go mad now too? If the simple fact that she is a Targaryen was enough to foreshadow this, what about her long lost nephew? He has always been extremely interested in justice and in his word, but he's done plenty of killing and made ruthless decisions to execute those who betrayed him too.
Like, on his own, by being a master tactician? He's a soldier, yes and a reasonably good one but he's also a reluctant one and a reluctant leader. Quite frankly he's pretty BAD at tactics and really only knows one style of battle which is to do formations and to fight with his big heavy sword and charge into things head on. He had to be completely rescued during the Battle of the Bastards by Sansa, he fled during Hardhome, his amazing leadership got Viserion killed, during the Battle for Winterfell he yelled and during this battle he was *kinda* a minor player. I mean, let's face it--the guy is no master general. As far as uniting people...I mean again--kinda. Remember back when he went to first see Lyanna Mormont and DAVOS had to get her on board lol!
Both characters have strengths and weaknesses. It's not like Dany has been clearly marching towards madness the entire show. She united a ton of people, freed thousands of slaves, built huge armies and worked from nothing. She showed a lot of kindness and worked (at a pace that made a lot of people want to fast forward) to improve herself as a leader as well. Now, because she burned it all and the show is presenting her in this way we all are grasping onto that evidence that she was cray and Jon was some great leader. It's just interesting.
Twitter seems to overwhelmingly hate the episode. Mostly because of what Dany did but also because of the way Cersei and Jamie died. Polarizing for sure!
I think it's too much to ask for every character to have a satisfying and consistent character arc. The Hound was probably the most consistent!
I admit to only reading the first 3 books, and it’s been a while, but I’m so surprised people are surprised that Dany did what she did. They have been planting hints for years! We all thought her vision in the House of the Undying was snow in the Red Keep - it was ashes. That was season 2! She would often spout off on causing total destruction - laying waste and burning cities to the ground. But she had advisors around to temper her. She lost all of her advisors to either death or mistrust and suddenly went from a place where she was adored and idolized to a country where she is severely mistrusted and disliked by most and sees the adulation Jon gets - who is a threat to her single minded reason for being. I mean..this is not surprising that she rained down the fire she has been threatening to for years.
I also feel like it’s one of those circumstances where literally no ending would make people happy.
I don’t think Jaime was coming to save Cersei; I think he was coming home to die with her. I approve of the writers’ choices with his character, but I wish he hadn’t slept with Brienne before realizing he couldn’t escape his darker and truer self.
I'm not mad about Drogon being able to avoid and destroy all the Scorpions. The other two dragons weren't really battle tested, but Drogon was there burning shit down from the very beginning even before Dany could ride him. He's a full on battle tested war dragon, who knows to fly in Z pattern, and when he destroyed Euron's Iron Fleet they came down at them with the sun at his back so the ships couldn't really see his position, and then at the sides. Plus he got hit by the very first, weaker Scorpion and has a vendetta against them and wants to avoid them and destroy them at all costs.
When Viserion gets taken out by the Night King everyone is shocked, because how the hell can the Night King throw a spear hard and far enough to take down a damn dragon? And when Rhaegal got killed last episode they were flying around a bluff and got ambushed (arguably due to their own stupidity, but still...). Anyway, they've established that Drogon is smart, aggressive, and even though he's being directed by Dany, has a strong sense of self preservation. He's given this Scorpion destroying some thought... listen to Sansa, then listen to Drogon.
If only the last two episodes had gone like this instead, it would have felt much more satisfying. We still would be where we are right now, but it would make so much more sense on a myriad of fronts.
"Why would you ruin perfectly good peanuts by adding candy corn? That's like saying hey, I have these awesome nachos, guess I better add some dryer lint." - Nonny
no she didn't torch dothraki widows; she torched the khals who were going to rape her. the widows were outside, and she told Jorah and Daario to spare the young widow who she walked to the bathroom with.
dany has always been on the side of innocents. she told Yara the iron born coulnd't rape and pillage anymore. she gave water to crucified slaves on the walk of punishment and tried to help them down. she didn't attack astapor because she didn't want to hurt anyone. she always criticized her father and brother for being cruel. she saved people from slavery and didn't initially want to buy the unsullied because she didn't like to keep the cycle of slavery going. she tried to prevent the kalasar from raping people. she told the unsullied to harm no innocents. she didn't want to reopen the fighting pits.
I'm not saying she couldn't have gone mad. but at least in the books they showed a gradual madness, like her having hallucinations. but on the show it went from the woman I mentioned above to "burn them all" overnight. yes there were "hints" and maybe this was always how it was going to turn out, but the execution was sloppy and rushed. and her "hints" at becoming mad were no worse than the indications that the other people everyone loves were bad as well. I just thought it was showing she was as complex as everyone else.
I agree 100%. I am surprised so many say they saw this coming. Perhaps it was because of heavier foreshadowing in the books/prophecies that were not a part of the show. To me it seemed extremely out of character. She is (was) an imperfect heroine, but torching a city full of innocent people for absolutely no reason was extremely unexpected.
Also - should we expect Jon to go mad now too? If the simple fact that she is a Targaryen was enough to foreshadow this, what about her long lost nephew? He has always been extremely interested in justice and in his word, but he's done plenty of killing and made ruthless decisions to execute those who betrayed him too.
No, Jon has some genetic diversity cause of Lyanna. Dany is 100% incest, that's why they're crazy.
Post by 2curlydogs on May 13, 2019 18:43:47 GMT -5
My husband just pointed out that Varys was most likely trying to poison Dany. Hence why his little bird was reporting that she wasn't eating and she was afraid they were watching her.
My husband just pointed out that Varys was most likely trying to poison Dany. Hence why his little bird was reporting that she wasn't eating and she was afraid they were watching her.