Post by sparrowsong on Aug 11, 2019 15:41:00 GMT -5
The idea that there was a body double on the gurney and he’s alive in witness protection is what? That democrats are protecting him getting offed so that he can be brought out right before the election and give evidence against trump? Or just that his millions allowed him to buy his way out of prison and promise to disappear?
Post by cattledogkisses on Aug 11, 2019 16:16:50 GMT -5
Maybe I'm naive, but I find it entirely plausible that a rich and powerful man who's accustomed to the finest things in life would choose this way out when the alternative is spending the rest of his life in prison where he's unlikely to be treated kindly.
He would hardly be the first person to kill themselves to avoid having to face justice for their crimes.
The ONLY way I will believe suicide is if some very dangerous people paid him a visit and told him that if he didn’t do it himself they would do it for him and it would be a lot more painful. And then they conveniently left behind whatever he needed to get the job done.
You don’t think it’s possible that a man who had lived the lavish life and was suddenly facing life in prison for the horrible crimes he committed could *want* to take his own life?
If it was suicide, which I’m not totally convinced one way or the other, he definitely had help. I think it’s entirely possible that he bribed a CO to look the other way, tell him how to do it, maybe even provide whatever he needed.
Possible, sure.
But I think he was the type that believed himself so above the law that in the end he felt that with his money and power he would get out of it again. I'm not saying its impossible he took himself out. But after an entire lifetime of never facing consequences I imagine it would be hard to shake that belief of being untouchable.
I think it's quite possible that he actually killed himself. I also think it's not out of the realm of possibility that he had some help, whether minimal (guards being paid to look the other way) or more active.
The thing is he would have been in RHU even if taken off the additional suicide watch. It is really hard to miss someone hanging in RHU with the design of it, guards watching each cell and guards watching the monitors. Just wait for the "the cameras failed that day" line which I am sure is coming.
You don’t think it’s possible that a man who had lived the lavish life and was suddenly facing life in prison for the horrible crimes he committed could *want* to take his own life?
If it was suicide, which I’m not totally convinced one way or the other, he definitely had help. I think it’s entirely possible that he bribed a CO to look the other way, tell him how to do it, maybe even provide whatever he needed.
Do you realize that people commit suicide in prison all the time all by themselves with no help?
I like a good conspiracy theory too, but a lot of the posts here are a little too much for me. Try to leave some room for the possibility that he committed suicide because our prison system is one that allows that sort of thing to happen with frightening frequency.
I do realize that. The deaths of Sandra Bland and so many other inmates are unacceptable and we need prison reform. However I don't think Epstein's case is comparable because of all the privilege he had, even in prison. He was a high-profile inmate (and potential witness) who had recently been on suicide watch; if ever the prison staff knew they would face repercussions for allowing a suicide to happen, this would be it.
nicbreeful, I think that's exactly why Epstein would have been suicidal - he had been above the law his entire life and realized that this time his money couldn't get him off the hook and his powerful friends weren't going to help him. I think he probably saw it as his only way out.
You don’t think it’s possible that a man who had lived the lavish life and was suddenly facing life in prison for the horrible crimes he committed could *want* to take his own life?
If it was suicide, which I’m not totally convinced one way or the other, he definitely had help. I think it’s entirely possible that he bribed a CO to look the other way, tell him how to do it, maybe even provide whatever he needed.
Do you realize that people commit suicide in prison all the time all by themselves with no help?
I like a good conspiracy theory too, but a lot of the posts here are a little too much for me. Try to leave some room for the possibility that he committed suicide because our prison system is one that allows that sort of thing to happen with frightening frequency.
I think we should be capable of noticing the problems with the prison system, of which there are more than we could even simply or easily list, and also acknowledging that the information that Epstein had would absolutely take a lot of very important people. I wouldn't count any options out (though the body double and witness protection one is....dumb). I certainly don't have any sort of naive belief that any number of important people wouldn't do anything at all to keep this info from the light of day.
Post by downtoearth on Aug 12, 2019 16:34:37 GMT -5
Maybe it is because I come from a state where there is the highest (or second highest) suicide rate per capita in the nation, but none of this is surprising... that Epstein would be able to carry out his own suicide while in prison on suicide watch or that a white, middle-aged man of means would want to commit suicide rather than face repercussions of the white-collar crimes he was involved in. Plus, many times a rich person will have life insurance that covers even suicide death and therefore it may comfort someone who is facing financial ruin to their family that they will avoid that and provide for loved ones by committing suicide. I know one person who checked his life insurance before attempting.
Maybe it is because I come from a state where there is the highest (or second highest) suicide rate per capita in the nation, but none of this is surprising... that Epstein would be able to carry out his own suicide while in prison on suicide watch or that a white, middle-aged man of means would want to commit suicide rather than face repercussions of the white-collar crimes he was involved in. Plus, many times a rich person will have life insurance that covers even suicide death and therefore it may comfort someone who is facing financial ruin to their family that they will avoid that and provide for loved ones by committing suicide. I know one person who checked his life insurance before attempting.
Just to be clear, sex trafficking isn’t a “white collar” crime. Tax evasion is a white collar crime. What Epstein did caused real, lasting harm, to CHILDREN. It’s not the same.
Federal agents, including FBI and CBP were seen on the dock and grounds of Little Saint James, the island owned by accused sex trafficker Jeffrey Epstein in the U.S. Virgin Islands. The U.S. Attorney's Office and SDNY declined to comment on the operation.
The ONLY way I will believe suicide is if some very dangerous people paid him a visit and told him that if he didn’t do it himself they would do it for him and it would be a lot more painful. And then they conveniently left behind whatever he needed to get the job done.
You don’t think it’s possible that a man who had lived the lavish life and was suddenly facing life in prison for the horrible crimes he committed could *want* to take his own life?
If it was suicide, which I’m not totally convinced one way or the other, he definitely had help. I think it’s entirely possible that he bribed a CO to look the other way, tell him how to do it, maybe even provide whatever he needed.
Maybe it is because I come from a state where there is the highest (or second highest) suicide rate per capita in the nation, but none of this is surprising... that Epstein would be able to carry out his own suicide while in prison on suicide watch or that a white, middle-aged man of means would want to commit suicide rather than face repercussions of the white-collar crimes he was involved in. Plus, many times a rich person will have life insurance that covers even suicide death and therefore it may comfort someone who is facing financial ruin to their family that they will avoid that and provide for loved ones by committing suicide. I know one person who checked his life insurance before attempting.
Just to be clear, sex trafficking isn’t a “white collar” crime. Tax evasion is a white collar crime. What Epstein did caused real, lasting harm, to CHILDREN. It’s not the same.
Agreed. And I also think it's part of the reason why suicide doesn't surprise me even though I do think the circumstances are shady and this should have been prevented. I can think of two instances of men killing themselves after being confronted with molesting young girls -- one who was caught in the act, so absolutely no question of guilt. His response was to flee the house and immediately commit suicide rather than deal with any of the fallout or consequences.
I think there's something about sex crimes, particularly when children are involved, that make suicide as an escape route more likely. Maybe because it is one thing that is absolutely intolerable to everyone, and a trial means no one can deny what a vile person the perpetrator is. And the men are just fine carrying on for years actually BEING that person -- Larry Nassar comes to mind as well -- but as soon as everyone knows and their public persona and deniability is ruined, and they face consequences for their evil, then they would rather be dead.
Just to be clear, sex trafficking isn’t a “white collar” crime. Tax evasion is a white collar crime. What Epstein did caused real, lasting harm, to CHILDREN. It’s not the same.
Agreed. And I also think it's part of the reason why suicide doesn't surprise me even though I do think the circumstances are shady and this should have been prevented. I can think of two instances of men killing themselves after being confronted with molesting young girls -- one who was caught in the act, so absolutely no question of guilt. His response was to flee the house and immediately commit suicide rather than deal with any of the fallout or consequences.
I think there's something about sex crimes, particularly when children are involved, that make suicide as an escape route more likely. Maybe because it is one thing that is absolutely intolerable to everyone, and a trial means no one can deny what a vile person the perpetrator is. And the men are just fine carrying on for years actually BEING that person -- Larry Nassar comes to mind as well -- but as soon as everyone knows and their public persona and deniability is ruined, and they face consequences for their evil, then they would rather be dead.
Yeah, a local teacher and church leader drove his car head on into a dump truck as soon as allegations were made against him. It hadn’t even come to trial yet. Not super surprising.
A person familiar with the probe of Jeffrey Epstein’s death at a federal jail says guards are suspected of falsifying log entries to show they were checking on inmates in his unit every half hour, when they actually weren’t.
...
Surveillance video reviewed after the death showed guards never made some of the checks noted in the log, according to the person familiar with the investigation.
The two guards who were in the jail unit where Jeffrey Epstein apparently killed himself fell asleep and failed to check on him for about three hours, then falsified records to cover up their mistake.
Agreed. And I also think it's part of the reason why suicide doesn't surprise me even though I do think the circumstances are shady and this should have been prevented. I can think of two instances of men killing themselves after being confronted with molesting young girls -- one who was caught in the act, so absolutely no question of guilt. His response was to flee the house and immediately commit suicide rather than deal with any of the fallout or consequences.
I think there's something about sex crimes, particularly when children are involved, that make suicide as an escape route more likely. Maybe because it is one thing that is absolutely intolerable to everyone, and a trial means no one can deny what a vile person the perpetrator is. And the men are just fine carrying on for years actually BEING that person -- Larry Nassar comes to mind as well -- but as soon as everyone knows and their public persona and deniability is ruined, and they face consequences for their evil, then they would rather be dead.
Yeah, a local teacher and church leader drove his car head on into a dump truck as soon as allegations were made against him. It hadn’t even come to trial yet. Not super surprising.
I think there was a former GBCNers FIL who was accused or convicted and committed suicide.
Yeah, a local teacher and church leader drove his car head on into a dump truck as soon as allegations were made against him. It hadn’t even come to trial yet. Not super surprising.
I think there was a former GBCNers FIL who was accused or convicted and committed suicide.
Yes, I remember. It wasn't long after the incident I mentioned above happened to a friend of mine/her daughter.
The FIL of the GBCN poster was accused/charged and the court process had just started. He was an elementary school gym teacher/coach and three very young girls reported inappropriate behavior/touching to their parents.
That whole thing pissed me off because she talked about how his funeral was packed with people all reminiscing about what a great guy he was and how it comforted her MIL. I didn't get the impression that she or her family/ILs could bring themselves to believe the THREE girls -- I recall there being some heavy implications from her when she first posted about it, that the (single) mother of one of the girls was unstable/vindictive and driving the accusation(s).
And here's where I confess that I was so WTF about the whole thing -- especially since child molestation had just happened IRL to a family that we were close to, and my friend who caught the molester (her own father!) was being blamed for his suicide, because she went straight to the police -- that I googled based on what she shared and was able to find the news stories in the local paper about it, so that's another reason I remember the details. Because I got them from a source other than her, including her FIL's glowing obituary. Vomit.
It's the one time in all the years I've been here that I went digging for something IRL that was shared here, and I never shared any of it, because it was someone's IRL identity/name that was involved. But I wasn't sad when she got run off ML for making disparaging remarks -- I think about the sexual history of an acquaintance.
I think there was a former GBCNers FIL who was accused or convicted and committed suicide.
Yes, I remember. It wasn't long after the incident I mentioned above happened to a friend of mine/her daughter.
The FIL of the GBCN poster was accused/charged and the court process had just started. He was an elementary school gym teacher/coach and three very young girls reported inappropriate behavior/touching to their parents.
That whole thing pissed me off because she talked about how his funeral was packed with people all reminiscing about what a great guy he was and how it comforted her MIL. I didn't get the impression that she or her family/ILs could bring themselves to believe the THREE girls -- I recall there being some heavy implications from her when she first posted about it, that the (single) mother of one of the girls was unstable/vindictive and driving the accusation(s).
And here's where I confess that I was so WTF about the whole thing -- especially since child molestation had just happened IRL to a family that we were close to, and my friend who caught the molester (her own father!) was being blamed for his suicide, because she went straight to the police -- that I googled based on what she shared and was able to find the news stories in the local paper about it, so that's another reason I remember the details. Because I got them from a source other than her, including her FIL's glowing obituary. Vomit.
It's the one time in all the years I've been here that I went digging for something IRL that was shared here, and I never shared any of it, because it was someone's IRL identity/name that was involved. But I wasn't sad when she got run off ML for making disparaging remarks -- I think about the sexual history of an acquaintance.
"I'm passionate about ocean policy and wish people were as interested in Jones Act reform, joining the law of the sea, and funding icebreakers." Yeah? I'm passionate about funding icebreakers. ...for scientific research. Somehow I don't think your aims quite align with mine, Mr. Shipping Industry. We do not need to break up the Arctic even more just so that we can make the world's ridiculously-wealthy shipping magnates even more ridiculously wealthy. Sorry, but his shitty deflection touched on a personal sore spot.
"Among the bones broken in Epstein’s neck was the hyoid bone, which in men is near the Adam’s apple. Such breaks can occur in those who hang themselves, particularly if they are older, according to forensics experts and studies on the subject. But they are more common in victims of homicide by strangulation, the experts said."
"A handful of studies conducted over the past decade have produced conflicting results about the likelihood of a hyoid break in a suicide. In a study of 20 suicidal hangings in Thailand, published in 2010, one-fourth of the men who hanged themselves had broken hyoids. In a larger study of suicidal hangings of young adults and middle-aged people in India, conducted from 2010 to 2013, hyoid damage was found in just 16 of 264 cases, or 6 percent. The study addressed the discrepancies in academic reviews, saying wide variations in findings of hyoid breaks are “possibly due to factors like age of the victim, weight of the victim, type of suspension and height of suspension.”
"Hyoid fractures have previously sparked controversy in jailhouse and other contentious deaths."
I think there was a former GBCNers FIL who was accused or convicted and committed suicide.
Yes, I remember. ...
I admit I googled at the time too, and found the story and then felt kind of icky about it. I seem to recall she named her son after the fil after it all happened.
"I'm passionate about ocean policy and wish people were as interested in Jones Act reform, joining the law of the sea, and funding icebreakers." Yeah? I'm passionate about funding icebreakers. ...for scientific research. Somehow I don't think your aims quite align with mine, Mr. Shipping Industry. We do not need to break up the Arctic even more just so that we can make the world's ridiculously-wealthy shipping magnates even more ridiculously wealthy. Sorry, but his shitty deflection touched on a personal sore spot.
Yeah that comment was out of left field. Super self-serving and tone deaf. Fuck that guy (I hate everyone lately).