@@@John Oliver: China’s One Child Policy

[miniroller]

Highly recommend last night’s episode, as it delves into the modern-day effects of this horrendous policy (that I’d shamefully not really considered).

John Oliver on Origins, Negative Effects of China’s Former ‘One Child’ Policy
www.rollingstone.com/tv/tv-news/john-oliver-last-week-tonight-china-one-child-895592/

[katfco]

We saw some of these concerns when DH and I lived in China almost 15 years ago. A friend of mine and her husband had a daughter and when she got pregnant again, they asked permission to keep the baby, but we’re told if they did, they would be heavily fined. They and her parents worked at the same university we did, and she said there could have been repercussions on all of them if she hadn’t gotten an abortion.

[carmenere]

I visited my brother in Shanghai this summer. Obviously I knew about the one child policy, but it really hit home when he was introducing me to his Chinese friends as his sister and they all gawked over our resemblance. It was surreal to think that none of them have siblings. It’s so dystopian it’s crazy to think that it’s really happening.

[bugandbibs]

This policy will have increasingly devastating effects over the next few generations. The effects aren’t localized to just mainland China. Sex trafficking is such a huge problem in Asia and there is a cultural aspect that makes it harder to fight. There are so many “grey” areas of arranged marriages and familial adoptions that are harder to track beyond outright selling/buying.

The other concern that I see in my own social groups is the isolation and cultural shift of a generation growing up with mostly only child, male peers. Social interactions are stunted or awkward. Caring for your ancestors is hardwired into our group sub-consciousness. How do you meet that burden without help?

[basilosaurus]

bugandbibs, John Oliver covered the sex-trafficking part, especially from Myannmar.

[bugandbibs]

Oct 7, 2019 19:42:14 GMT -5 basilosaurus said:

bugandbibs, John Oliver covered the sex-trafficking part, especially from Myannmar.

I’m not sure how to take this. Yeah, I know. I did read the article. Sex trafficking and gender based discrimination is one of the reasons my parents refused to raise us in Thailand. Obviously, sex trafficking is global but it takes on another tone when one sex was basically eliminated for decades.

[basilosaurus]

Oct 7, 2019 19:53:54 GMT -5 bugandbibs said:

Oct 7, 2019 19:42:14 GMT -5 basilosaurus said:

bugandbibs , John Oliver covered the sex-trafficking part, especially from Myannmar.

I’m not sure how to take this. Yeah, I know. I did read the article. Sex trafficking and gender based discrimination is one of the reasons my parents refused to raise us in Thailand. Obviously, sex trafficking is global but it takes on another tone when one sex was basically eliminated for decades.

Nothing meant by it. I thought you were speaking, appropriately, from personal experience, and I just wanted to assure you that the piece was thorough. J.O. specifically mentioned Burmese victims trafficked to China due to the sex disparity, not just trafficked victims in general.

[rupertpenny]

I’m not surprised that people don’t want to have two children now. When you grew up an only child, when everyone you know did too, when your parents were only children, when you don’t even have cousins, how would you even know how to do anything different?

Plus now the expectation is for parents to pour all their resources into their one child. People literally can’t afford to do the same for two children and worry that their children will fall behind. It’s entirely logical to stop at one if you think having a second will disadvantage both.

What is extra crazy is that there are still “leftover women” who are stigmatized if they aren’t married by 30. There is a huge shortage of women but they are still discarded if they don’t conform.

[msmerymac]

Oct 7, 2019 19:21:57 GMT -5 bugandbibs said:

This policy will have increasingly devastating effects over the next few generations. The effects aren’t localized to just mainland China. Sex trafficking is such a huge problem in Asia and there is a cultural aspect that makes it harder to fight. There are so many “grey” areas of arranged marriages and familial adoptions that are harder to track beyond outright selling/buying.

The other concern that I see in my own social groups is the isolation and cultural shift of a generation growing up with mostly only child, male peers. Social interactions are stunted or awkward. Caring for your ancestors is hardwired into our group sub-consciousness. How do you meet that burden without help?

I should go read the article, but I've seen before that people who are my generation (late 30s) are not only the only child, but the only grandchild on both sides, 2 generations into the one-child policy. It's a ton of pressure from an academic and career standpoint, to be able to make your entire family proud and carry their legacy in a culture that really promotes that, but also a lot of pressure to care for literally all of your living ancestors. 

[miniroller]

Oct 8, 2019 11:25:34 GMT -5 msmerymac said:

Oct 7, 2019 19:21:57 GMT -5 bugandbibs said:

This policy will have increasingly devastating effects over the next few generations. The effects aren’t localized to just mainland China. Sex trafficking is such a huge problem in Asia and there is a cultural aspect that makes it harder to fight. There are so many “grey” areas of arranged marriages and familial adoptions that are harder to track beyond outright selling/buying.

The other concern that I see in my own social groups is the isolation and cultural shift of a generation growing up with mostly only child, male peers. Social interactions are stunted or awkward. Caring for your ancestors is hardwired into our group sub-consciousness. How do you meet that burden without help?

I should go read the article, but I've seen before that people who are my generation (late 30s) are not only the only child, but the only grandchild on both sides, 2 generations into the one-child policy. It's a ton of pressure from an academic and career standpoint, to be able to make your entire family proud and carry their legacy in a culture that really promotes that, but also a lot of pressure to care for literally all of your living ancestors. 

John skillfully relates this absolutely overwhelming caring-for-six-elders situation to Charlie & the Chocolate Factory. You know- so Americans can get it 🤦🏻‍♀️

[cattledogkisses]

Two of my coworkers in grad school were from China, and one day we were showing each other our wedding photos. They were absolutely fascinated by the family photos from my wedding, and that's when it really hit me that not only do they have no siblings, they have no cousins, aunts, or uncles either. It's so hard for me to imagine.

[amberlyrose]

I mentally understand the no siblings part of it, but it's hard for me to wrap my head around having no cousins or aunts/uncles.

[msmerymac]

Oct 8, 2019 12:29:04 GMT -5 amberlyrose said:

I mentally understand the no siblings part of it, but it's hard for me to wrap my head around having no cousins or aunts/uncles.

I wonder if people in China do more with their really extended family though. Like I only had 1 cousin and 1 aunt/uncle growing up (my mom is an only child), but my dad has 40 first cousins, and a lot of his cousins had kids around my age nearby, and we'd see each other at least twice a year at big family functions. 

[mcsangel2]

Both my mom and my mom's father were from large families (oldest of 8 and second oldest of 11, respectively). I think my mom had 45 first cousins on that side, and I have 16 first cousins on my mom's side. I always felt a tiny bit bad for my sister's 4 kids, because neither my BIL's brother, nor my brother and I, have had kids though we're all married/have been married, so they don't have any cousins. I'm glad there are 4 of them though, they are a good sized family on their own, and hopefully they will all have kids and then they will have cousins!

[Gato]

One woman in the Oliver piece put it really well, and he reiterated, you can't turn human fertility on and off like a switch. They tried with the one child policy; now they're trying with the two-child policy, because there are too few younger people to take care of the elderly.

This is starting to happen in the United States, too (underpopulation). If only there were millions of people who wanted to migrate from conflict-torn areas, wanting to enter your country and willing to do your grunt work. Seems like that would solve a lot of problems.

[bugandbibs]

Oct 8, 2019 13:14:44 GMT -5 Gato said:

One woman in the Oliver piece put it really well, and he reiterated, you can't turn human fertility on and off like a switch. They tried with the one child policy; now they're trying with the two-child policy, because there are too few younger people to take care of the elderly.

This is starting to happen in the United States, too (underpopulation). If only there were millions of people who wanted to migrate from conflict-torn areas, wanting to enter your country and willing to do your grunt work. Seems like that would solve a lot of problems.

I remember years ago when I learned that if it wasn’t for immigrants we would have a declining population in the US that it seemed so unbelievable. Now as an adult, I see it amping my own peers.

@@@mh and I are the only couple of our childhood friends who have kids. The majority are CHBC and a few have never married. As a first generation American, I never really considered not having kids for a lot of reasons but my American husband wasn’t planning to have any until he met me. It’s interesting to think about this on a larger scale.

[shauni27]

Oct 8, 2019 12:29:04 GMT -5 amberlyrose said:

I mentally understand the no siblings part of it, but it's hard for me to wrap my head around having no cousins or aunts/uncles.

anecdote that has nothing to do with the OP:

We are OAD. My H is an only and I have a sister who will not have children. So my kid will not have any first cousins and only one true aunt/uncle. He will be the only grandchild to both sets of grandparents.

It is really weird to wrap my head around because I grew up with 6 first cousins whom I was EXTREMELY close with (they were like sisters) and my H has more than 30 first cousins. 

For us it will be a matter of just not pointing out the importance of "first" cousins or aunts and uncles and making family get togethers common with cousins, regardless of "relation/distance." But it is still weird to think about.

[aspentosh]

@

I found it a really interesting show and the problems that come with it are startling.

Due to infertility issues we are OAD and I have told H multiple times we need to 1) make sure we are SET financially so she doesn't have that burden and 2) make sure she knows her cousins, aunts, uncles, etc... even if they are all quite a bit older.

[ssmjlm]

Oct 8, 2019 12:29:04 GMT -5 amberlyrose said:

I mentally understand the no siblings part of it, but it's hard for me to wrap my head around having no cousins or aunts/uncles.

This isn't that atypical here in America though.  My sister and I were the only grandchildren on both sides and my parents were 1 of 3.  Their siblings never had children.  Now that my sister has passed, I'm the only grandchild and my daughter has no aunt.  My BIL has separated himself from his family and his son was 17 when my daughter was born.  They've met twice and she's 6.

Friends are the same.  They may be 1 of 2, but if they only have 1 kid, then there's a good likelihood of just 1-2 cousins.

[lolalolalola]

Oct 8, 2019 15:24:07 GMT -5 ssmjlm said:

Oct 8, 2019 12:29:04 GMT -5 amberlyrose said:

I mentally understand the no siblings part of it, but it's hard for me to wrap my head around having no cousins or aunts/uncles.

This isn't that atypical here in America though.  My sister and I were the only grandchildren on both sides and my parents were 1 of 3.  Their siblings never had children.  Now that my sister has passed, I'm the only grandchild and my daughter has no aunt.  My BIL has separated himself from his family and his son was 17 when my daughter was born.  They've met twice and she's 6.

Friends are the same.  They may be 1 of 2, but if they only have 1 kid, then there's a good likelihood of just 1-2 cousins.

My kids have no cousins at all. It makes me sad. They have an Aunt & Uncle who they see once every 2-3 years so it doesn’t really count as they don’t have a relationship.

[ChillyMcFreeze]

I have a friend who was the accidental second child. Her mom went to visit her sister in the countryside (the last generation before One Child), gave birth, and left her to be raised by the maiden aunt.

I met another man a few years ago who introduced me to his two teenage children. He had big time Communist Party connections that got him a pass to have two kids. It's just so bizarre.

Also fun fact related to Chinese overpopulation: Your license plate has a number that indicates which days of the week you're allowed to drive, so only a percentage of the population can be on the roads on any given day. It's fascinating and disturbing to watch the repercussions of these policies happening in real time.

[nicbreeful]

This doesn't have much to do with the topic, I just felt like adding it because we are talking about cousins and whatnot.

I'm sure my grandparents thought they would have lots of grandchildren and great grandchildren. They're Catholic and had 5 kids, my mother being the second oldest.

Except my mother never wanted children until she met my dad and then they had one, me. My aunt had 1 girl and got sick with cancer and died. One uncle married late and had 1 girl and then divorced. 1 uncle is gay. The other went to prison.

I am 95% sure I don't want children. My older cousin is 40 and hasn't mentioned children. My younger cousin is about 20 and I have no idea if she wants children or not.

So, from 5 kids came 3 grandkids. And 2/3 of those grandkids most likely won't have kids of their own. Honestly, its strange to think such a large family can die out like that.

[miniroller]

Like was to thank you for adding these extraordinary (to us Americans) scenarios ChillyMcFreeze WOAH. Thanks for sharing.

[ChillyMcFreeze]

Oct 10, 2019 20:08:46 GMT -5 miniroller said:

Like was to thank you for adding these extraordinary (to us Americans) scenarios ChillyMcFreeze WOAH. Thanks for sharing.

Thanks! Not to misrepresent myself -- I'm American. I worked with a Chinese cultural organization for several years and made a few visits to China. I got to meet some incredible people and hear how One Child and the Cultural Revolution and decades of other policies affected them in all different ways. I've also been following one of my former students who was staunchly pro-China (anti sovereign Taiwan) now become an outspoken activist for Hong Kong, trans rights, and feminism while living in mainland China. It's so cool to watch, but I worry a lot about her safety.

[simpsongal]

nicbreeful my grandmother’s fam was like that

@@ she was 1 of 6, only 3 of those kids had kids (my mom’s generation). And of my mom and her cousins, only my mom and her sis had kids (3 each). Looking like there will only be 6 in the next generation too.

It’s as if giving people control over their fertility is the right answer...

[StrawberryBlondie]

Oct 10, 2019 15:41:03 GMT -5 nicbreeful said:

This doesn't have much to do with the topic, I just felt like adding it because we are talking about cousins and whatnot.

I'm sure my grandparents thought they would have lots of grandchildren and great grandchildren. They're Catholic and had 5 kids, my mother being the second oldest.

Except my mother never wanted children until she met my dad and then they had one, me. My aunt had 1 girl and got sick with cancer and died. One uncle married late and had 1 girl and then divorced. 1 uncle is gay. The other went to prison.

I am 95% sure I don't want children. My older cousin is 40 and hasn't mentioned children. My younger cousin is about 20 and I have no idea if she wants children or not.

So, from 5 kids came 3 grandkids. And 2/3 of those grandkids most likely won't have kids of their own. Honestly, its strange to think such a large family can die out like that.

@ This is my mom's side of the family... She's one of 5 and there are 2 grandkids.

My uncle, the oldest, is basically a fuck-up*. He was married to a woman with a couple of kids for a while but when they split when I was in middle school, the kids kind of left our lives too (though one of them came back into grandma's life in adulthood). Then there's my mom, and I'm an only child (though I think that was due to fertility issues, not desire to be OAD). The next oldest wanted children desperately but can't. The next is also a fuck-up* with an adult step-daughter (meaning said step-daughter was an adult when she came into her life). Then there's my other aunt who had 2 but one died very young.

There's another cousin who was given up for adoption that's just a little older than me. I'm still not sure if I'm supposed to know about her or if telling me was a drunken mistake.

*Said lovingly.

[mrsukyankee]

I see the results regularly as I work with international students at a uni. The pressure is huge. HUGE. And the anxiety levels of some of these students is insane. It's crushing.

[GilliC]

Re: multi-generation one-child families, it may be less common. One of my colleagues in Beijing was born in the late 70s, but she had a brother because both of her parents happened to be only children. She told me that in that case, the policy allowed her parents to have a second child. She and her husband would then (at the time) be allowed only the one, since she was not an only child.

[nicbreeful]

Oct 11, 2019 16:30:46 GMT -5 StrawberryBlondie said:

Oct 10, 2019 15:41:03 GMT -5 nicbreeful said:

This doesn't have much to do with the topic, I just felt like adding it because we are talking about cousins and whatnot.

I'm sure my grandparents thought they would have lots of grandchildren and great grandchildren. They're Catholic and had 5 kids, my mother being the second oldest.

Except my mother never wanted children until she met my dad and then they had one, me. My aunt had 1 girl and got sick with cancer and died. One uncle married late and had 1 girl and then divorced. 1 uncle is gay. The other went to prison.

I am 95% sure I don't want children. My older cousin is 40 and hasn't mentioned children. My younger cousin is about 20 and I have no idea if she wants children or not.

So, from 5 kids came 3 grandkids. And 2/3 of those grandkids most likely won't have kids of their own. Honestly, its strange to think such a large family can die out like that.

There's another cousin 

That reminded me.. the uncle that went to prison had a relationship with a woman but it's unsure if her child is my uncle's or another guy's. It's the family "secret" that it's probably my uncle's kid. Also found out while a different uncle was drunk. Lol. 

Wait, we aren't related, are we??

[StrawberryBlondie]

Oct 12, 2019 15:27:31 GMT -5 nicbreeful said:

Oct 11, 2019 16:30:46 GMT -5 StrawberryBlondie said:

There's another cousin 

That reminded me.. the uncle that went to prison had a relationship with a woman but it's unsure if her child is my uncle's or another guy's. It's the family "secret" that it's probably my uncle's kid. Also found out while a different uncle was drunk. Lol. 

Wait, we aren't related, are we??

Is your fuck-up uncle about to probably go to prison soon? 😉