This thread is making me remember how much I HATED working for big law. If there is a legitimate reason due to the type of practice that he shouldn't take off, I get it. If not, it is likely some stupid policy put in place just to make associates as miserable as possible. Maybe it was just the horrible place that I worked, but it seemed like they had these arbitrary rules and practices to try to keep people from being happy.
Eh. Maybe because I don’t give a f*ck about power games like this (and have the luxury not to now), but I don’t see why asking a partner what the policy is for leave around the holidays is a big deal.* I also have zero patience for the way many firms are managed though.
*The facts of how he found out aren’t totally clear to me either. But even if he did directly ask, I think that’s fine. I also don’t think he asked them to confirm that they wouldn’t be busy, just trying to feel out whether he could WORK remotely.
I used to play chicken essentially with vacation. I would just schedule it and see what happened. There was really no way to ask because no one was going to say “yes we’ll make sure you can go.” So I would take my best guess and then just start telling everyone I would be out on X days. I never had to cancel a vacation, but I know others who did.
As a partner, I'd have no issue if he asked. But asking me is taking the chance that you aren't going to like my answer. Which, in my specific area at my specific firm, would be no. And that's where the benefit of talking to other associates and employees would come in, because he'd know in advance that it's not a good move. But I wouldn't hold it against someone for asking me about it.
I am fine with the chicken game all year round, and we do our best to accommodate vacation time. Except during two months of the year, one of which is December. If someone just started saying they would be out on such and such days in December, there would be a mutiny here. So, again, it would definitely pay to feel out the other associates and paralegals as to how things really work, whether official policy or not.
He asked around and was told he had to email all partners who give him work and let them know. So that's what he did, he told them he would be working remotely the last week of December. One person wrote back "this isn't what we do here, no one takes vacation in December..." but he didn't outright say no.
H is also in a weird position right now because he doesn't really have a direct supervisor. The partners who completed his evaluation a month or two ago are both located in Asia and obviously don't care if he is at his desk in NYC. He also does a lot of work for partners in the CT offices. He is reporting to like 5 offices on two continents, who cares if he works remotely for a few days?!?!
Anyway, he is going to book his ticket separately from ours, using miles just in case, but still plans to go unless someone tells him no outright.
This thread is making me remember how much I HATED working for big law. If there is a legitimate reason due to the type of practice that he shouldn't take off, I get it. If not, it is likely some stupid policy put in place just to make associates as miserable as possible. Maybe it was just the horrible place that I worked, but it seemed like they had these arbitrary rules and practices to try to keep people from being happy.
Honestly it is straight up hazing. Once you're partner you can do whatever you want. And his firm generally isn't that bad! Lowish billable requirement, and since it is private client you can't just make people work a million hours to run up the tab like you might with corporate.
Post by fluffycookie on Oct 11, 2019 8:21:59 GMT -5
MH does M&A work at a mid-size firm and they are not allowed to take time off starting November 1st unless it's for extenuating circumstances, e.g. last year he had to take a day off to take me for a colonoscopy in December. NYE he is routinely not home until close to 8pm because of deals trying to close.
As a partner, I'd have no issue if he asked. But asking me is taking the chance that you aren't going to like my answer. Which, in my specific area at my specific firm, would be no. And that's where the benefit of talking to other associates and employees would come in, because he'd know in advance that it's not a good move. But I wouldn't hold it against someone for asking me about it.
I am fine with the chicken game all year round, and we do our best to accommodate vacation time. Except during two months of the year, one of which is December. If someone just started saying they would be out on such and such days in December, there would be a mutiny here. So, again, it would definitely pay to feel out the other associates and paralegals as to how things really work, whether official policy or not.
He asked around and was told he had to email all partners who give him work and let them know. So that's what he did, he told them he would be working remotely the last week of December. One person wrote back "this isn't what we do here, no one takes vacation in December..." but he didn't outright say no.
H is also in a weird position right now because he doesn't really have a direct supervisor. The partners who completed his evaluation a month or two ago are both located in Asia and obviously don't care if he is at his desk in NYC. He also does a lot of work for partners in the CT offices. He is reporting to like 5 offices on two continents, who cares if he works remotely for a few days?!?!
Anyway, he is going to book his ticket separately from ours, using miles just in case, but still plans to go unless someone tells him no outright.
Ugh, that is such a shit answer, but I'd be concerned that this person thinks that it's equivalent to a no and is going to be pissy come December 26th. Did anyone else even respond to him? I agree this is a weird situation, it sounds like he is not in one particular practice group yet? Other than saying that he has to talk to all of the partners, did the other associates give any indication if everyone needs to be (and actually is) in the office?
Sorry for all the questions, I guess I am trying to feel out if this is an actual practice group/firm policy or just one partner being cranky. Like at my firm, it's actual policy, which, while it sucks, its also easier knowing for sure. I wouldn't love being at the mercy of partners giving responses like that and, to be honest, I also wouldn't want to be the guy who is on PTO or working remotely when everyone else has the expectation that people are in the office. The office resentment would kill me.
I'm sorry. Being an associate is kind of one giant mindfuck.
As a partner, I'd have no issue if he asked. But asking me is taking the chance that you aren't going to like my answer. Which, in my specific area at my specific firm, would be no. And that's where the benefit of talking to other associates and employees would come in, because he'd know in advance that it's not a good move. But I wouldn't hold it against someone for asking me about it.
I am fine with the chicken game all year round, and we do our best to accommodate vacation time. Except during two months of the year, one of which is December. If someone just started saying they would be out on such and such days in December, there would be a mutiny here. So, again, it would definitely pay to feel out the other associates and paralegals as to how things really work, whether official policy or not.
He asked around and was told he had to email all partners who give him work and let them know. So that's what he did, he told them he would be working remotely the last week of December. One person wrote back "this isn't what we do here, no one takes vacation in December..." but he didn't outright say no.
Anyway, he is going to book his ticket separately from ours, using miles just in case, but still plans to go unless someone tells him no outright.
I might be an outlier, but this seems like a bad idea considering what you've said about his partnership goals and that he's new to that particular office.
He got a no. Maybe not an outright no, but he was clearly told that's not something he should do. If it turns out he's the only one (or one of a small number) not there, he's going to look like an asshole.
I'm not an attorney, but my mom is one and has practiced law most of my life. She's always been able to take time off around Christmas. In fairness though, her practice area is in special education representing school districts, which are obviously closed that time of year.
I guess it's surprising to me that this is seemingly the norm. I kind of thought once you get out of the essential employee (by that I mean, needing to show up physically, like doctors or restaurant servers) realm those kinds of rules went out the window.
I hope he's able to go and doesn't face any repercussions. That's a really shitty policy, even if it is not uncommon.
When I worked in corporate America, the days around Christmas were blacked out for anyone who wasn’t a supervisor or had seniority.
I totally believe it. The US in general is pretty terrible about providing for balance and giving employees the flexibility to take actual vacations.
That just has never been my personal experience with my working-professional mom, myself, or DH. I used to work actual holidays, but that was because I was in the service industry at the time and was an essential employee. We were open and needed bodies in the building. Because of that, I assumed it was generally the case that companies provided flexibility to non-essential staff.
I totally believe it. The US in general is pretty terrible about providing for balance and giving employees the flexibility to take actual vacations.
That just has never been my personal experience with my working-professional mom, myself, or DH. I used to work actual holidays, but that was because I was in the service industry at the time and was an essential employee. We were open and needed bodies in the building. Because of that, I assumed it was generally the case that companies provided flexibility to non-essential staff.
I think there is a wide degree of variation across corporate cultures how holidays are treated. It is usually fairly quiet around the holidays here and you can take off if you haven't burned through your vacation and your boss approves. However certain teams do need coverage and if your boss isn't flexible or someone requested off before you then you are out of luck. I'm in most of December because I'll have just 1-2 vacations day left. I am hoping to get to some long deferred tasks since a lot of folks will be out on my team.
OP I think it is somewhat impolitic to take vacation when there has been disapproval though not an outright prohibition. While it is true that no one has explicitly said not to go but in any industry where bonuses are so subjective I would proceed with caution.
I know nothing about Big law. And I see he asked around and enquired, and got kind of a soft no. I guess I wonder why 1 guy is saying that is not what we do here, when no one else is saying that. Is it just the one guy that thinks that? Maybe his compromise is he is onsite one day to do this guys work and offsite the rest of the days doing the other partners work?
Did he get an employee handbook that discusses vacation? I don't want him to go to HR to go to HR because I wouldn't want that getting around somehow and pissing people off, but maybe he can ask around again some more and see is that actually "not what people do". What part is not what people do, the work remotely part, or the time of the year part, or what? Or maybe reiterate it's not a vacation?
Does he ever work remotely? From home or whatever? Would this be the first time? Do other people in the office routinely work remotely (whether or not they are "able" to physically do so based on work)?
rupertpenny - THAT answer is exactly the type of power play BS I deal with daily. I know in my last firm, I would absolutely get a negative review from that partner for even ASKING for vacation. For example, when I was pregnant I was working up til my due date even though I could have taken paid leave as early as I wanted to. There was a client event a week before my due date on a Saturday (baseball game) that I told the partner that I didn’t want to attend. I got a SUPER snarky email response back about how disappointed she was because she “thought” I was working until X date and since the baseball game was before X date she couldn’t comprehend why I wouldn’t drag my 39 weeks pregnant ass to July baseball game. Luckily I gave birth early so it was moot.
I don’t want to scare you, but this is Firm life in the US.
In my experience this seems to be the norm. Depends on practice area, but I think medium law was worse than biglaw as far as work/life balance and flexibility. In biglaw, each section was different and the senior associates explained the expectations during clerkship. In corporate group, you could work from home around the holidays but you needed to be "seen" via email daily and if something comes up you were expected to be in the office that day. At the medium sized firm, the corporate partners wanted associates in the office November/December everyday unless you had already exceeded billable goal (not requirement) for the year. At the private company, the handbook explicitly states no time off in November and December.
‘“this isn't what we do here, no one takes vacation in December..." but he didn't outright say no.’
I’d take that as a no. An outright no.
Yep. It sucks, but this is a no. I would not book a ticket after getting a no, even if it feels unfair. I can’t imagine the backlash after being told it wasn’t ok, especially if he’s new there.
I remember the shit I got from my assigned partner when I had a vacation approved but he FORGOT he approved it.
Does he ever work remotely? From home or whatever? Would this be the first time? Do other people in the office routinely work remotely (whether or not they are "able" to physically do so based on work)?
Every-fucking-day he works remotely after dinner. Every weekend and federal holiday too, although he often goes into the office those days.
Thank you for the input everyone, even though it is obviously not what I wanted to hear. He already has zero work life balance on a day to day basis and it really sucks that we might have to miss out on Christmas with family for what seems like such a stupid reason to me. I'm also in an opposite environment, I am a professional and am expected and allowed to make decisions about my time as long as I get my work done, and work life balance is highly promoted.
You aren't the first person I've heard of having trouble (re)adjusting to American work norms after living abroad, and I daresay you won't be the last.
Does he ever work remotely? From home or whatever? Would this be the first time? Do other people in the office routinely work remotely (whether or not they are "able" to physically do so based on work)?
Every-fucking-day he works remotely after dinner. Every weekend and federal holiday too, although he often goes into the office those days.
Thank you for the input everyone, even though it is obviously not what I wanted to hear. He already has zero work life balance on a day to day basis and it really sucks that we might have to miss out on Christmas with family for what seems like such a stupid reason to me. I'm also in an opposite environment, I am a professional and am expected and allowed to make decisions about my time as long as I get my work done, and work life balance is highly promoted.
Because it is a stupid reason!
I hope he finds a way to spend some time with your family.
This thread is making me remember how much I HATED working for big law. If there is a legitimate reason due to the type of practice that he shouldn't take off, I get it. If not, it is likely some stupid policy put in place just to make associates as miserable as possible. Maybe it was just the horrible place that I worked, but it seemed like they had these arbitrary rules and practices to try to keep people from being happy.
Yes. I don't miss the bullshit mind games of New York firm life at all.
Being called in on Easter just to prove they could (on a deal everyone knew wasn't going to close, and even so wasn't scheduled to do anything for over a week). Calls at 10pm on Fridays from partners I hadn't worked for in weeks just to check that I was still at my desk. The partner who scheduled a completely unnecessary out of country meeting just to make a midlevel associate miss his brother's wedding.
Not a lawyer but work for a large company that follows law firm structures and norms (sort of...they’ve tried to dial it back in the past 5-ish years). This crap is normal and it’s exponentially worse when you have a shit-ton of people you report to. The driver for time off and remote work is really our clients though. Sometimes you get lucky and sometimes you don’t. We are capped at taking a week off unless it’s for extenuating circumstances, there always has to be someone onsite to support if the doors are open, only one remote work day a week. If our client is going to be at work on Dec. 26, at least one of us does too. It really stinks because the client I’m aligned to full time is a workaholic and will absolutely be there.