Atlantic: Why You Never See Your Friends Anymore (some @)

[GilliC]

When I first moved to Norway, I couldn’t understand how they still have store closures on Sunday, especially given that most shops close between 5 and 7 on weekdays. It blew my mind and seemed so inconvenient.

I have since changed my mind completely.

My social circle is so much more diverse and the interactions more fulfilling, because most of us can plan activities on Sunday. Whether they work in an IT office or a shop or cleaning houses, nearly everyone has Sunday off. We tend to get together for social activities like walks along the river or dinner together. Since shops do open on Sunday in the run-up to Christmas, I’ve seen how much it impacts the dynamic when some of our friends had to work those days.

Of course it’s not perfect, since some people do still have to work. Transit runs on a reduced schedule, but it does still run. Medical and emergency services need to stay running, as do hotels. Small convenience stores stay open to sell essentials, but the glaring exception is the restaurant industry. Most restaurants stay open, and my friends who work in them do lament being left out of such a key social period, so they tend to form groups among themselves to shift their activities to their more common days off.

[orval]

Both my DH and I are working today -- which means my ds is working with me. I also have to work tomorrow. Next day off is next Sunday - I will have worked 20 straight days. I own my own business which due it the nature of it, requires weekends.
I do hire some friends to work with me though, so I get to catch up occasionally.

[Jalapeñomel]

I’m too tired to read this on a Saturday.

[winecat]

When I went to Australia, the American in me was so annoyed at the beginning when I couldn't get a cup of coffee after 3-4pm; very Veruca Salt due to the jet lag. Restaurants closed relatively early. It wasn't unusual for dinner service to end at 8:30/9pm which meant that the staff could be home by 10-11pm so they could have a relatively normal schedule. Grocery stores opened 7-8am and closed about 12 hours later. One chain didn't open until 10am but stayed open later. The limited work hours allowed socializing and volunteering like we wish we had here. It was pretty fabulous.

[UMaineTeach]

@@@


My parental participation in IEP meetings is at a deep low. The problem for about half the parents is the unpredictable work schedule. Hourly and salaried parents. Service industry and office workers.

I am required by law to give them 7 days advance written notice. However, when I call them 3 weeks before the proposed date to see if it will work for them, they say they will have to call me back next week. They have to wait for a schedule at work. Then, if we don’t connect the next week, you are running out of time to hold the meeting without a waiver of rights. Then, if you do agree on a meeting with a waiver of advance notice, and the parent can’t make it, you cannot legally hold the meeting. Then, the meeting gets over due and that’s a whole other set of legal issues.

We offer parents the option to call in, but you can’t exactly do that while working in the Walmart check out line or when you might need to take a client call.

[NitaX]

I haven't read the article yet, but this is why I hate that stores are opening on Thanksgiving. Like the one day people should relax, y'all gotta have that too? And even when retail is dying?

It's too much.

[tres3]

Oct 12, 2019 8:35:44 GMT -5 UMaineTeach said:

@@@


My parental participation in IEP meetings is at a deep low. The problem for about half the parents is the unpredictable work schedule. Hourly and salaried parents. Service industry and office workers.

I am required by law to give them 7 days advance written notice. However, when I call them 3 weeks before the proposed date to see if it will work for them, they say they will have to call me back next week. They have to wait for a schedule at work. Then, if we don’t connect the next week, you are running out of time to hold the meeting without a waiver of rights. Then, if you do agree on a meeting with a waiver of advance notice, and the parent can’t make it, you cannot legally hold the meeting. Then, the meeting gets over due and that’s a whole other set of legal issues.

We offer parents the option to call in, but you can’t exactly do that while working in the Walmart check out line or when you might need to take a client call.

There was just a big ruling that employees can take FMLA time for IEP meetings. It doesn't help hourly workers make up the lost $$ from missing time but it does give them protections 

[sillygoosegirl]

I have so many mixed feelings on this. I love the way it talked about both ends of the wage spectrum and how they are both being squeezed, but it should have also talked about the challenges of a strict 9-5 schedule for households where all the adults work. If everyone works 9-5, when do you do your grocery shopping or go to the doctor? Some amount of staggering is essential, and traditionally we didn't have enough of it... at least according to many people I know in the older generation. But I think this makes a wonderful point about how we have too much staggering now. We need times when most of us are at work, when some are at work and some aren't, and times when most of us are not at work.

I miss the days when you just did without whatever you forgot for Thanksgiving dinner. Or borrowed from a neighbor if it was a staple.

[penguingrrl]

Oct 14, 2019 8:40:04 GMT -5 melmaria said:

This part stood out to me:

"Keeping up a social life with unreliable hours is no easy feat, either. My friends and I now resort to scheduling programs such as Doodle to plan group dinners. Committing to a far-off event—a wedding, a quinceañera—can be a source of anxiety when you don’t know what your schedule will be next week, let alone next month. Forty percent of hourly employees get no more than seven days’ notice about their upcoming schedules; 28 percent get three days or fewer."

I may be misremembering (it was 12-15 years ago), but I feel like I got my shift schedules at least two weeks in advance when I had hourly shift type jobs, when I was in college. Three days' notice is insane.

When I worked for gap (in HS then again in my late 20s/early 30s) we got our schedule Friday for the week starting Sunday. It was awful. I actually don’t mind working retail, but that schedule (plus the push to sell really bad credit cards, if you didn’t have two applications per shift you were written up, even if you weren’t on the register that day) is why I would never voluntarily work retail again.

[aprilsails]

Oct 14, 2019 8:40:04 GMT -5 melmaria said:

I may be misremembering (it was 12-15 years ago), but I feel like I got my shift schedules at least two weeks in advance when I had hourly shift type jobs, when I was in college. Three days' notice is insane.

When I worked as a waitress I had both 3 days notice and two weeks notice. The schedule would come out on a Wednesday night for two weeks worth of shifts starting that Saturday. So I could make plans in advance for the weekend 1.5 weeks out, but not for the weekend 2 days away. I know they waited as long as possible to release the shifts so that people could get in any time off requests (lots of university students meant lots of changing class commitments, etc). As soon as the shifts came out it would be madness with the trading.

[aurora]

I didn't realize the shift work scheduling had gotten so bad. People need more than 2-3 days notice to live their lives!

[NitaX]

It's sad that this is even needed: "Then there’s “right to disconnect” legislation, which mandates that employers negotiate a specific period when workers don’t have to answer emails or texts off the clock. France and Italy have passed such laws."

When I took on a new role (or rather it was thrust upon me) at my old shop, the ability to disconnect was impossible. I'd get calls on Saturday, calls when I was on vacation, there were meetings that lasted late in the evening. I have to specific instances where I couldn't disconnect. Once, I was in NOLA for Essence Fest. I'm on vacation. I got a call that was like this panic of STOP AND DO THIS NOW. Like - there is a whole other person in the office that can handle this. 

Then there was my incompetent boss. I was gearing up for like a cruise and was telling my colleagues why I loved the, It forced me to disconnect. I can't be reached in the middle of the ocean. This woman had the gall to say "you can get phone calls while on a cruise." I looked at her and said "who's paying for it?" She shut up after that. Because I knew that she would have tried to make me take calls while at sea. NAWL. Let me rest dammit.

But yes to this article. We have such a profit driven workplace that we don't allow people the needed time to rest. 

[penguingrrl]

Oct 14, 2019 8:55:48 GMT -5 aurora said:

I didn't realize the shift work scheduling had gotten so bad. People need more than 2-3 days notice to live their lives!

It was awful. We didn’t find out until the Friday evening before thanksgiving that instead of our usual 7 am Black Friday opening we were opening at midnight, meaning people had to be in by 11 or 12 (I was scheduled for that but someone thankfully traded). They also routinely ignored what your availability was even if you had taken the job with that as a condition of taking it, but limited the number of shifts you traded.

[basilosaurus]

Oct 14, 2019 8:40:04 GMT -5 melmaria said:

This part stood out to me:

"Keeping up a social life with unreliable hours is no easy feat, either. My friends and I now resort to scheduling programs such as Doodle to plan group dinners. Committing to a far-off event—a wedding, a quinceañera—can be a source of anxiety when you don’t know what your schedule will be next week, let alone next month. Forty percent of hourly employees get no more than seven days’ notice about their upcoming schedules; 28 percent get three days or fewer."

I may be misremembering (it was 12-15 years ago), but I feel like I got my shift schedules at least two weeks in advance when I had hourly shift type jobs, when I was in college. Three days' notice is insane.

I was in a weird in between of salary and hourly in my job post college. I have a feeling they weren't entirely in line with legality, but we were a gray area of law at the time as rules were changing at the time. Basically we were guaranteed 40 hours pay but got overtime beyond that. We got our tentative schedule on Tuesday the week before. It was finalized Friday. Final was subject to change, sometimes day of. Don't get me started on the unpaid commute time bullshit.

It was a tech instructor job. Classes were full days plus up to 2.5 (by mapquest estimate) commute each way unpaid , so it's not like we could duck out for appointments. Industry standard was 1 day prep (usually at home) per week. I usually got 1/month. To the company's credit, they tried to work with us for things like doc appts that we had to schedule weeks in advance and would schedule a prep day rather than us giving up one of our 5 annual sick days. It wasn't worth taking a sick day for an hour appt, and they knew that, and they knew we prepped on our own time without pay out of necessity so we didn't look like dumbasses, so they tried to balance when they could, but it was far from a guarantee. 

[downtoearth]

I feel like this might be more of an issue for hourly employees who also have families. As an hourly employee without a family, I was able to still spend very long hours with friends and family at odd times and get time off as needed - but maybe that was because my schedules were more "set" (as in a host/waitress for certain set-time shifts and I could easily take time off if I could find someone else to cover for me and get that cleared with my boss).

Do a lot of you feel this now? I mean, do you have very little time to meet new people and attend activities with your current friends? I'm not sure I feel that. But I'm an extrovert who needs to connect with others to feel complete, so maybe that is why I don't feel this too acutely.

I have two set dates per week with friends and (when I was married) we had one set date night/happy hour/bike ride per week that often ended with friends time with other couples - now I get more b/c I'm divorced and dating. But in general, I've always been pretty good about having at least 2 bigger friends' events (dinner party or girls night) per month too. Even weekend getaways with girlfriends and my sisters/mom every couple months. And meeting friends in other towns for concerts and dinners every 2 months (ish) also.

@ related

SPOILER: Click to show

I felt less connected to friends when my kids were 0-4 yrs old, but since then, it seems much easier to get away - I work out with friends in the evenings or at 5:30am, I have two set breakfast/beer dates per week with certain friends, and I can spontaneously meet up for post-work happy hours and girls nights or hikes each week. I think the smaller kid time was tough, but now with a 7, 11, 13 yr old, I don't feel that much anymore.

[waverly]

Yeah I don’t see friends that often. I have had 2 girls weekends in 2 years. One was September. Then we went to a Taste with friends in September. We have a friend coming over in October.

So I guess you could say we see friends maybe once a month. Sometimes it’s the whole summer before we see anyone and sometimes it’s 2 times in a month. I could get away more than I do but not that much more. Part of it is I’m an introvert and tired from my day/ week. I know I should make more of an effort but friendships are very convenience based so when the situation isn’t there that brought us together than I think they think I am weird if I bring up getting together. So I’m trying to go with the flow more which is somewhat at odds with putting in more effort. Not sure how to do both well.

[fumbalina]

I worked retail for ten years. Scheduled always came out Friday at noon for the following week starting Monday. It was hard to attend anything because people do not plan ahead. If I knew there was a party three weeks out I would get that time off to go. Most of the time though it was Saturday morning for a get together that evening or the next morning.

My husband works for Lowe's, often they don't even put out the schedule although it has a due time.

Some of the planning is due to smart phone technology. When I was in high school you had to plan because it was not easy to call and get someone while you are on the way.

[downtoearth]

This is really interesting to read your responses. I don't feel disconnected from my community or making new friends, but I know others who have in my same community, so I'm not denying that it's happening. I am having a hard time making the leap from our more isolated and maybe more online friendship connections that aren't the same as real life interactions to the breakdown of our whole political system that she makes at the end...

It’s a cliché among political philosophers that if you want to create the conditions for tyranny, you sever the bonds of intimate relationships and local community. “Totalitarian movements are mass organizations of atomized, isolated individuals,” Hannah Arendt famously wrote in The Origins of Totalitarianism. She focused on the role of terror in breaking down social and family ties in Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union under Stalin. But we don’t need a secret police to turn us into atomized, isolated souls. All it takes is for us to stand by while unbridled capitalism rips apart the temporal preserves that used to let us cultivate the seeds of civil society and nurture the sadly fragile shoots of affection, affinity, and solidarity.

Is anyone else having that disconnect or just me?

[GilliC]

Oct 14, 2019 9:23:39 GMT -5 NitaX said:

...
Then there was my incompetent boss. I was gearing up for like a cruise and was telling my colleagues why I loved the, It forced me to disconnect. I can't be reached in the middle of the ocean. This woman had the gall to say "you can get phone calls while on a cruise." I looked at her and said "who's paying for it?" She shut up after that. Because I knew that she would have tried to make me take calls while at sea. NAWL. Let me rest dammit.
... 

One of my favorite things about Svalbard is that outside of the two settlements, there is literally no internet. It's at such a high latitude that the normal satellite coverage doesn't apply, so if you're on a ship that far north, there's simply no option. I was on a cruise once that called at Longyearbyen, and for the days sailing there and back, they announced the loss in coverage. It was an admittedly strange experience being that cut off, because they couldn't even print the little one-sheet news summaries, so we had no idea what was going in the rest of the world.

[waverly]

downtoearth, Yeah it is exaggerated there at the end. I do think there is an opportunity for people to turn towards bad influences online and ignore good influences in real life. But that happened before the Internet as well, just getting in with a group of bad people rather that a group of good people.

I do think that breaking up bonds in real life are an excellent way for one person or a group to start to control people. Unbridled capitalism is not the best idea ever, which is why I am more in favor of regulations, but I don't see it operating exactly the same way as a fascist secret police situation.

[Velar Fricative]

I have no doubt a huge reason for such shitty scheduling practices is due to the decline of unions. I supervise union staff, who in turn manage union teams (I’m non-union). Their contract states that their schedules must be posted no less than two weeks prior to the start of the given week, and managers aim for 3-4 weeks prior. We are a customer-facing organization open 6 days a week and some sites are open for longer hours, so there is already some level of unpredictability there but organizational and citywide/statewide efforts help make it less onerous and managers are encouraged to be as accommodating as possible while still maintaining operations. And no one can be forced to work overtime; they can be asked, but they can decline.

I am glad some states and cities are stepping up with pro-worker regulations, but I am annoyed that it seems to be all blue states/cities so far.

[jamaicam]

One of the things I love most about my job is that , due to confidentiality etc, we are not allowed to take work home with us. And for security reasons, our office shuts at 7pm unless you get prior authorisation to stay late. I know that a similar job to mine with my seniority elsewhere in government would not have these protections and that's part of why it would be very hard for me to look elsewhere.

[brooke77]

I definitely feel this as more of my friends flex their schedules. It’s so hard to get together “after work” because for some people that means 4 and for some people that means 6:30.

I also see this more and more with DH and I. We are so lucky that we can flex our in-office hours a bit. But when he works a 6-2:30 schedule and I work an 8-4 schedule, it’s tough to manage wanting to eat dinner and going to bed at the same time. Week nights can feel very isolating.

[ECB]

At first I was like "How did the USSR just get rid of two days?". It took me a minute.

While my DH works an unconventional schedule and it does affect HIM when it comes to seeing friends and doing stuff, by and large- work schedules aren't what keep me from seeing friends.

@@@

It's our kid's sports schedules. Which I think plays a role in this topic too, TBH. Along with companies being open 7 days a week, or "taking work home" is the norm for some, sports have now moved to taking place every day of the week. Even just a few years ago, I felt like Sundays were still pretty much untouched. But no longer. I'm in a birthday club with 8 women and 4 of the birthdays fall Sept - Nov. It is almost impossible to find even ONE date to celebrate all 4 birthdays over this 3 month span - and it's largely due to our kids schedules. Not ours!

I sometime miss the days when Sundays were "rest" days. It was nice to know you HAD to just chill out and slow down.

[kadams767]

Oct 14, 2019 11:37:24 GMT -5 downtoearth said:

Do a lot of you feel this now? I mean, do you have very little time to meet new people and attend activities with your current friends? I'm not sure I feel that. But I'm an extrovert who needs to connect with others to feel complete, so maybe that is why I don't feel this too acutely.

I have two set dates per week with friends and (when I was married) we had one set date night/happy hour/bike ride per week that often ended with friends time with other couples - now I get more b/c I'm divorced and dating. But in general, I've always been pretty good about having at least 2 bigger friends' events (dinner party or girls night) per month too. Even weekend getaways with girlfriends and my sisters/mom every couple months. And meeting friends in other towns for concerts and dinners every 2 months (ish) also.

No snark intended, but when do you do chores and personal (non-social) stuff?  

I am one of those who feels this now.  DH and I both work FT, non-hourly jobs, and both involve some travel.  When we aren't traveling, we are out of the house from 7am-6pm at a minimum and those are just regular work days and don't count nights when we have to attend work dinners/drinks/other functions.  We work to stagger those hours and events so that we can each get to certain exercise activities we like and also adequately take care of our dog.  On a typical weeknight, we don't have dinner until after 8pm.  It's really hard to add a social activity, much less more than one, during the week for me.  I need to do things like take care of my dog, my garden, laundry, miscellaneous other tasks like mail/pay bills, cleaning, and also unwind and have some time to read or listen to music.               

[isabel]

Oct 15, 2019 12:00:40 GMT -5 ECB said:

At first I was like "How did the USSR just get rid of two days?". It took me a minute.

While my DH works an unconventional schedule and it does affect HIM when it comes to seeing friends and doing stuff, by and large- work schedules aren't what keep me from seeing friends.

@@@

It's our kid's sports schedules. Which I think plays a role in this topic too, TBH. Along with companies being open 7 days a week, or "taking work home" is the norm for some, sports have now moved to taking place every day of the week. Even just a few years ago, I felt like Sundays were still pretty much untouched. But no longer. I'm in a birthday club with 8 women and 4 of the birthdays fall Sept - Nov. It is almost impossible to find even ONE date to celebrate all 4 birthdays over this 3 month span - and it's largely due to our kids schedules. Not ours!

I sometime miss the days when Sundays were "rest" days. It was nice to know you HAD to just chill out and slow down.

@@@

Kid sports drive me nuts. My best friend has both of her kids enrolled in soccer, hip hop, and some other activity. They are *always* busy on weekends. The other weekend, my MIL had our kids and I asked her about going for a hike and she was all "omg, I would love to, but we have a soccer game and then a school thing, and blah blah blah." It's really frustrating for me. She never has time to just hang out because her family is always on the go. Meanwhile, I'm over here not putting my kids in any activities because I'm not willing to give up my weekends to that. I suppose it's just different preferences, but I definitely feel it even though I'm not the one who is overscheduled.

[downtoearth]

Oct 15, 2019 12:38:17 GMT -5 kadams767 said:

Oct 14, 2019 11:37:24 GMT -5 downtoearth said:

Do a lot of you feel this now? I mean, do you have very little time to meet new people and attend activities with your current friends? I'm not sure I feel that. But I'm an extrovert who needs to connect with others to feel complete, so maybe that is why I don't feel this too acutely.

I have two set dates per week with friends and (when I was married) we had one set date night/happy hour/bike ride per week that often ended with friends time with other couples - now I get more b/c I'm divorced and dating. But in general, I've always been pretty good about having at least 2 bigger friends' events (dinner party or girls night) per month too. Even weekend getaways with girlfriends and my sisters/mom every couple months. And meeting friends in other towns for concerts and dinners every 2 months (ish) also.

No snark intended, but when do you do chores and personal (non-social) stuff?  

I am one of those who feels this now.  DH and I both work FT, non-hourly jobs, and both involve some travel.  When we aren't traveling, we are out of the house from 7am-6pm at a minimum and those are just regular work days and don't count nights when we have to attend work dinners/drinks/other functions.  We work to stagger those hours and events so that we can each get to certain exercise activities we like and also adequately take care of our dog.  On a typical weeknight, we don't have dinner until after 8pm.  It's really hard to add a social activity, much less more than one, during the week for me.  I need to do things like take care of my dog, my garden, laundry, miscellaneous other tasks like mail/pay bills, cleaning, and also unwind and have some time to read or listen to music.               

Not offended - I work 35 hours per week only. I have the privilege to choose less pay and more time for me/family right now (financially and with the place I am with my career).

You are gone so much longer than me each day -11 hours vs. 7-8 hours. I realize that gives me 3-4 extra hours per day to get everything in. I'm out of the house from 8:30 or 9:30 am until 4:30 only - few kid activities in the evenings, but I also have a 7-10 min commute only. We moved away from Denver area because I was like you for years and we (XH and I) couldn't handle full time jobs that we needed to afford to live plus the commute kept getting longer and longer.

We still eat at 7:30 or later most nights, but now I have time for tidying in the morning (after kids leave I usually put in laundry, load/unload dishwasher, clean one room, fold laundry then off to work), after work dog walks, exercise (a lot of which is done with friends to connect), hikes, time to get kids to extracurriculars, after school kids chores (not great, but it helps to have a them help out), wine nights at 9pm - even on week nights I'll make a point if us girls need an hour away, and luckily little to no weekend work, etc. From 4:30 to 8:30 I'm doing chores/working out/cooking/cleaning/kid-duties and it doesn't seem relaxing at times, but at 9:30-10 each night I let myself read or watch shows to relax and unwind. 

[ECB]

Oct 15, 2019 12:50:38 GMT -5 isabel said:

@@@

Kid sports drive me nuts. My best friend has both of her kids enrolled in soccer, hip hop, and some other activity. They are *always* busy on weekends. The other weekend, my MIL had our kids and I asked her about going for a hike and she was all "omg, I would love to, but we have a soccer game and then a school thing, and blah blah blah." It's really frustrating for me. She never has time to just hang out because her family is always on the go. Meanwhile, I'm over here not putting my kids in any activities because I'm not willing to give up my weekends to that. I suppose it's just different preferences, but I definitely feel it even though I'm not the one who is overscheduled.

@@@

Yup.  I want DS to be involved in some sports, but the insane over scheduling of kids in sports is stunning to me.  Plus how seasonal sports completely bleed into other seasons now, and into summer.  You want to play football?  Don't plan any August vacations!  

While I understand it's good for kids to play more than one sport, I don't think that should mean ALL AT ONE TIME!  Kids in my neighborhood are in year round swim, then they play soccer right now, but because they play club lacrosse, practice for that has already started.  And basketball starts up in a couple weeks.  

it's insane. 

[tacokick]

Oct 14, 2019 8:40:04 GMT -5 melmaria said:

This part stood out to me:

"Keeping up a social life with unreliable hours is no easy feat, either. My friends and I now resort to scheduling programs such as Doodle to plan group dinners. Committing to a far-off event—a wedding, a quinceañera—can be a source of anxiety when you don’t know what your schedule will be next week, let alone next month. Forty percent of hourly employees get no more than seven days’ notice about their upcoming schedules; 28 percent get three days or fewer."

I may be misremembering (it was 12-15 years ago), but I feel like I got my shift schedules at least two weeks in advance when I had hourly shift type jobs, when I was in college. Three days' notice is insane.

When I worked retail we’d find out on Friday about Sunday.

[ECB]

Oct 15, 2019 13:24:09 GMT -5 melmaria said:

@@@

I'm probably one of those overscheduled parents, as my SD has a swim meet two weekends a month.  It's hard, because she LOVES swimming and has always been the one wanting to do it year round - we didn't push her into it at all.  My SIL/BIL have sort of made passive-aggressive comments to us about how their DD won't EVER do a sport that has games/meets on the weekend or during the summer because that's their family time.  And I'm always like..."ok, but what if your DD WANTS to do a sport like that someday?"  (Their DD is only 4).  Yes, I get that you can just tell your kid no, but it would be hard for us to tell SD no more swimming when she loves it and thrives off of having that physical outlet and social time with her friends.  Still, it definitely makes me crave and look forward to our unscheduled weekends.

@@@

I'm going to clarify my stance so you don't feel i'm judging - some kids truly LOVE particular sports and in that case, awesome. If they want to do it- I'd support it too.  

But I have one friend who recognizes that we're over scheduling kids but then when her DD wanted to drop basketball, she's trying to convince her to keep doing it because SHE grew up playing b-ball.

That's where I judge the multi sports at one time - when it's more about what the parents want, what they played as kids, etc.  One kid I know is in year round swim. I  think he likes it, but nothing about him tells me he LOVES it.  I think he's doing it because he knows that his parents like that he does it. And he's doing 3 other sports just in the fall/winter. 

I think we're burning our kids out!!