OK this is long... sorry... but the context is important.
2 weeks ago one of DD1's friends accused her of kissing her 7 months ago, and "grabbing her privates" the prior week (so 3 weeks ago). Her mom, my friend, went to the principal instead of coming to me, principal called me, asked me to tell DD1 to "give her friend space". I spoke to DD1, she said that yes, 7 months ago, she was chasing her friend at the playground (not at school) and kissed her on the back near her shoulder through her winter coat. She said that she NEVER grabbed the girl, but that the girl tickled her so she tickled her back. Kid denies the tickling.
The next day, a former student's parents called the school claiming that while her kid was at our house on a play date, "upstairs in DD1's bedroom", DD1 asked her to close her eyes, and when she opened them, DD1 was trying to kiss her. I put "upstairs" in quotes because WE LIVE IN A RANCH and do not have an upstairs. DD1 cried and said she didn't know why her friend would tell lies about her. I believe DD1 is telling the truth, and that this kid (and/or her mother) lied. We know that she and her family regret leaving the school, but there's no space in the class for her to come back. The family has another child at the school, so they are still active parents.
We also know that Kid 1's mom called Kid 2's mom and told her about the accusations. Kid 1's mom is employed at the school in a "specialist" position (think music teacher or art), and teaches both of my kids.
As a result of both complaints, the principal filed a report with Child Protective Services, and we were under investigation. They tossed the complaint almost immediately.
DD1 has been keeping to herself, trying to stay away from the kid. The kid, however, is asking her to play, slapping her on the bum, grabbing her, pushing her. She invited DD to her birthday party last weekend, we politely declined and made other plans. Yesterday, the girl made a point of bringing a goody bag in for another kid that missed the party and showing it to DD, but said she "didn't feel like" giving one to DD.
It's a small school - 9 girls in the whole grade. I'm pissed at the mom for starting this whole thing. And OMG there is NO WAY DD1 would EVER be allowed out of the house with a goody bag (or anything else) knowing that someone would be left out. I'm pissed at the principal for overreacting and causing a shitstorm within our own family. For the most part, my kids are happy at the school, and they don't want to leave.
My question is... what can I do??? What should I do?? How would you all handle it? The principal knows everything and claims to be investigating. I'm waiting for a call from my attorney to see if there's anything we can do from a legal perspective, since an employee of the school started this whole mess by talking about my kid to another parent. I don't trust the other mother enough to address this directly with her, since she's chatty. Anything else??
Post by librarychica on Oct 16, 2019 9:56:12 GMT -5
I have to think on a lot of this, but one thing I want to address is that Kid 1 should not be having contact — especially physical contact — with your kid. Call Kid1’s mom and tell her this directly. “After the accusations made against my daughter, we are not comfortable having contact between the two girls.” Say the same to the principal. The administration said your DD1 should give child space so she needs to be supported in giving her space.
Then tell your daughter that every time that other girl approaches in any context other than a formal school assignment, she is to walk away. If she touches her she should announce, loudly, “do not touch me.” This second part was very effective when we had to deal with a child who was overly physical with our daughter in aftercare. There was a lot of emphasis from the aftercare teacher to not cause a fuss and whatnot but when our DD1 made it clear that his constant hugs were unwanted and did so loudly, they magically stopped.
Post by librarychica on Oct 16, 2019 9:58:14 GMT -5
And if anyone at the school acts like you’re overreacting, FFS, they called CPS. Your. child is now being harassed by this kid and they are allowing it. If they don’t take you seriously then, frankly, they are gaslighting you.
Post by traveltheworld on Oct 16, 2019 9:58:19 GMT -5
mae0111, first of all, I'm so sorry that you and your family are going through this.
I don't really have good advice. The only thing I can think of (and that's me, being totally non-confrontational and kind of a whimp when it comes to these things) is to talk to Kid 1's mom privately, in a non-accusatory, "kill them with kindness" kind of way, and ask her point blank what she thinks you and your DD can do to make school a pleasant experience for all parties involved. If she says to have your DD stay away from her DD, then emphasize that your DD is doing that, but is having some issues with it because it's a small class and her DD "appears" to not be following the same protocol; ask her for additional suggestions/strategies, then get her to commit to those. So that at least if your DD is doing her part, you can go back to Kid 1's mom the next time that there's an incident and go "hey, just wanted to give you a heads up that OUR mutually agreed upon strategy is not working because your DD did xyz...." Get her to take ownership of the issue.
Post by covergirl82 on Oct 16, 2019 9:59:05 GMT -5
I'm so sorry you're dealing with all this. This seems like an extremely challenging situation to navigate (although I think you've done a phenomenal job), but I think it's probably best to wait to hear from your attorney at this point. If there is a legal situation, then future conversations will need to be handled a certain way (I would imagine). I'm interested to see how other WPs who are attorneys weigh in.
traveltheworld, I left out (just because too much info) that I did speak to the mom when the first accusation came up. She apologized for going to the principal and not coming to me. I told her that I understood, she did what she had to do (in a very nice way, not at all passive aggressively), and I told her that I'd ensure that DD1 gave her daughter some space.
And then things exploded, and she knows that she's the cause. We now actively avoid each other.
I'm a little afraid to talk to her alone, simply because I'm not sure I can contain my temper. And also because I don't trust that she won't lie and spread rumors again. So I'd be willing to meet with her, but not without a third party.
I would totally ask her to handle this herself (with my coaching) if the accusations hadn't happened first. She's actually asked her repeatedly to leave her alone.
I'm trying not to be a snowplow parent, but, CPS was called. I feel like I have to be actively involved in this.
librarychica, I did give her that advice. I told her to say it loudly for everyone to hear, so that (at the very least), maybe the kid would be embarrassed by the attention. And then I told her to tell a teacher.
With her history of not being helped at her old school, she's very reluctant to trust the adults at her school. She also feels that since this kid's mom is a teacher at the school, everyone will believe the other kid over DD1.
Post by mustardseed2007 on Oct 16, 2019 10:48:02 GMT -5
mae0111 , you absolutely need to be involved at this point. At 10 she is probably capable of sticking up for herself in the moment, but beyond that I would be all over this with the school via the principal/head of school.
The only caution is that I would run any communication with the school by your lawyer first.
At our school, not bringing a goody bag to your child while bringing it to another child would be a violation of school rules. As would not inviting her to the party (although she was invited and you very reasonably elected not to go). Targeting a child either by a student or a teacher would be a violation of policy also. However I would again just be cautious with communicating with the school before running it by your lawyer if at all possible just so you don't prejudice your rights in some way.
ETA: In Texas, 10 is old enough for CPS to find that a child sexually assaulted another child. Under 10 it's nearly impossible. But her age is why the school may have felt they were a mandatory reporter. The fact that CPS tossed it immediately is very positive. That should HOPEFULLY close that chapter as far as the school is concerned. It should now be about how the adults and kids are behaving NOW. Are they slandering your child or violating FERPA now? That's what I'd have my eye on.
Post by sandandsea on Oct 16, 2019 10:52:37 GMT -5
I agree with PP. I’d go to the principal and require “space” for my daughter and that the other child stay away from mine at school.
The goody bag thing sucks but kids are mean and do exclusivity things. Yes it’s wrong and rude and not okay but I think it’s normal. I remember girls being in and out of the “star search” troop all the time around age 10. “I’m not taking you on star search with me”. So I would address this separately and privately with your daughter. (Sometimes kids make mean choices and it hurts others feelings that’s why we need to be careful with what we do because we don’t want to make others feel like this type of thing). I would also talk to the mom privately about that as a “hey kid did this and it hurt my kids feelings and I know you would want to know to privately address it with kid”.
mustardseed2007 - I didn’t know that re: age 10. DD1 turned 10 after the accusations were made, and was 9 when everything supposedly happened.
I can’t get over that this kid was *so upset* and *so scared* of DD that she was refusing to come to school, and less than a week later she’s inviting her to her party, actively trying to engage her at recess, but also excluding her. It’s so puzzling to me.
The kid is randomly bursting into tears in the middle of class periodically. DD1 gets worried that she will be blamed for those outbursts too. There’s something else at play and DD1 is taking the blame. It’s just all so shitty.
mae0111, I'm so sorry all this is happening. After you talk to the lawyer I think you need to setup an appointment with DD1 teacher, principle and the other mom so that everyone can be on the same page. Mae DD says she is staying away from other girl but other girl keeps approaching her asking her to play. We were told she wanted space so we are trying to give 100% space but space goes both ways. Mae's DD is now asking that other girl leave her alone and give her 100% space.
My DD 8 has a girl in her grade N that has tormented her since K. We've worked really hard on DD saying very loudly NO I don't want to play, NO don't touch me, NO leave me alone. The loud NO worked wonders last year on getting staff attention and really stopped N from giving DD a hard time to the point that N avoided DD. Now this year DD is stuck sitting next to her and her current teacher says it is because DD is the only kid in class that can ignore and not engage N. I'm hoping DD gets a better seat mate this week when seat changes happen because it has been very stressful for DD.
Post by mustardseed2007 on Oct 16, 2019 12:09:06 GMT -5
I 100% agree with 186momx, if the lawyer clears it, having a sit down where you clear the air will also show that you're here to stay and are willing to work with everyone and be reasonable even though you have been through a huge accusation and issue. You would not only be demonstrating that you understand you're probably going to have to live with the mom and her daughter, but you are showing that they will need to live with you guys too!
Post by covergirl82 on Oct 16, 2019 12:17:17 GMT -5
As a sidenote to 186momx 's DD's classroom issue... it's called a single table. If a kid can't handle sitting with other kids, they need to sit by themselves. I would ask the teacher about it. There was a kid in DS's 1st grade class who couldn't sit with other kids because he was too disruptive. There is no reason for other kids to be in a constant state of stress (which is very unhealthy); the teacher needs to configure seating assignments in a way that is positive/healthy for all students in the class.
186momx - I’m sorry that your DD has been put in that position because the teacher can’t handle N. It’s incredibly unfair and I hope that she gets moved soon.
I felt that, because DD1 is so easy in the classroom, she got thrown into a class with a ton of behavioral issues at her old school. We tried to go-along-to-get-along, but as you might remember, that didn’t work out for us. I hope you fare better than we did.
I’m wondering if this girl is being sexually abused by someone. Her behavior is just... bizarre. And do tell your attorney that this girl touched your daughter’s rear end. That’s sexual harassment and I would be sending a “cease and desist” letter to the school, the other parent, and the girl. And frankly, if they reported that your daughter touched her, they need to report that the child of one of their teachers touched your child inappropriately. It appears much more likely an investigation into that household is needed than into your household. Her daughter could be scared to say why she’s feeling the way she is, and so said it was your kid instead of the adult who is actually harming her.
I think a meeting with you, your attorney, the principal, and the school’s attorney is in order. F the teacher. She absolutely should not be invited. The time for conversation with her ended when she failed to approach you directly.
I think some there should be some recourse with the teacher mom having a conversation about your daughter with another mom. That is a confidentiality issue.
I don't know the best way to handle everything. However, if people are trading accusations of kids touching each other and acting like their kid is a saint, and their kid touched your child's bottom then I think that needs to be documented to the principal in writing.
covergirl82, there are 38 kids in DD's class. I would say 10 have major behavioral problems just from what DD has said. There is no way the class could have 10 individual seats for those kids to have space. There is just no area to do it. DD did say that they have a facilitating teacher who now comes in for math so N goes to room 9 for math and she gets to sit alone for a couple hours plus N has pull outs for other stuff.
DD's 1st grad year also had large class of 36-38 kids but only 3 behavior kids and DD's teacher than had them sit alone and said that their personal space bubble needed to be a little bigger which was why they got to sit by themselves.
I think mommyatty, advice combined with librarychica, about what your daughter should do is the best bet.
I would have a hard time talking to other parent because of what she has done. I might write an email share with attorney first and then send it to her.
good luck and I hope you have a resolution soon.
Ideally I would want the teacher terminated. She crossed the line when she shared personal information about a child to another parent. Something is going on with her kid though. Is she just mean and a liar or is it something else.
Post by mustardseed2007 on Oct 16, 2019 13:33:42 GMT -5
My advice is going from the perspective that it won't be possible to have the teacher fired. However, if I thought that was possible...well that might change my tune.
Your lawyer has heard all the facts in this case, so he's going to have a good idea as to whether or not it will be possible to force that issue. I'm guessing since it hasn't happened yet, the principal doesn't think she is obliged to do it. At least not at this juncture.
I ended up calling the principal and leaving a voicemail yesterday when I thought the gift bag was the only issue. I found out about the other stuff after, when the floodgates opened and DD1 revealed all this other stuff. So I sent her a pointed email and said that this wouldn’t be tolerated. I felt like I needed to get the ball rolling and I hadn’t heard from my attorney. He had advised me previously about how to speak to the principal and what to say. I stuck to those guidelines so hopefully they should still apply.
We didn’t demand the teacher’s termination because we wanted to try to work with everyone and try to move past it. It was our attorney’s advice when we told him we wanted to keep the kids in the school if possible. That’s becoming more difficult, obviously.
Beyond that, I’m just waiting. DD1 said the kid was ok today - minor annoyances but nothing egregious. She telling me EVERYTHING now, so even little things like “she kept poking me trying to get my attention in line while I was talking to someone else” is being documented. My documentation is like 15 pages long now. Such a waste of time.
Post by soccermama on Oct 16, 2019 14:37:32 GMT -5
Everyone else has already given you some very good & sound advice, I just wanted to say I'm sorry this is happening to you guys and I would be SO furious if something like this happened to my DD (who is also 10). I think you were right to get an attorney because you guys need to be protected, especially when your DD did not start this whole mess and the other kid really sounds like a problem. I would have been so pissed that they involved CPS as well. WTF.
Post by covergirl82 on Oct 16, 2019 15:03:32 GMT -5
mae0111, please keep us posted. Hoping for a resolution that you are in agreement with and that provides for the most positive environment for your DD1 (actually, both your DDs since they are in the same school).
mae0111, I also think you have gotten some really good advice from other people in this thread. As a teacher I just wanted to throw out a couple of things that stood out to me. I think you should absolutely trust your gut when you said you didn't know if you should talk to the teacher who started all this alone because you didn't really trust her. You should absolutely not trust her! We are told in our district not to have any discussion with a parent when a prior issue or problem has already been documented, and your case would certainly warrant this. I think you need multiple people with you in that meeting to protect yourself and to make sure that teacher can't exaggerate things when she retells the story later (and you know she will) and add more details to it to make it more dramatic. I think it was mommyatty, that mentioned the sexual abuse red flag since the girl hit your child on the bottom. I can also see that perspective, but honestly the first thing that came to my mind when you mentioned how this other child keeps trying to get your daughter's attention and trying to be around her is that this other kid has very specialized attention seeking behavior. I say that because I'm sure she knows what is going on and the huge reaction it got from her mom and maybe even other adults, so by being around your daughter and engaging with her she is increasing her chances of being seen next to your daughter where people can get all flustered and upset all over again, hence the attention comes.
Also, that teacher committed a major student confidentiality violation. If any teacher in our district spread rumors about another child to a parent and was found out/reported for doing so I would be shocked if they didn't automatically get written up and/or put on a growth plan, which is not a good thing. That would also be seen as a violation of our zero tolerance for bullying, and that teacher would be removed from having contact with the student they spread rumors about. I think it is completely fair if you request for your daughter to not have contact with this other child, and just based on you having to deal with a ridiculous CPS investigation alone, I think the school should bend over backwards to comply with that. Obviously you know that it is best to follow the directions of your attorney because you stated that, but I just wanted to chime in and support you being upset and pissed off that this whole thing even happened because you have every right to be! I just don't understand why adults bring kids into situations just to create drama. It honestly baffles me! I hope this whole situation works out the best it can for you and your daughter. Good luck with everything!
mae0111 I’m so sorry you’re dealing with this. How incredibly and unnecessarily stressful for your entire family. I agree with the previous poster who said WTF to them calling CPS - but someone else made a good point that they may be legally required to report and they’re probably trying to avoid any possible litigation over using common sense.
This is a private school, right? In that case I don’t know if traditional confidentiality policies would apply, unfortunately.
I don’t know that I would be calling the principal at all over things that are just mean but still trivial/normal kid behavior (the goody bag thing) because I think that could undermine your concern over the bigger issues.
sdlaura - yes, Private, so I don’t think FERPA applies.
I agree that under other circumstances, I wouldn’t necessarily have gone to the principal over the goody bag. But with the history and the fact that the mom is selling this story of how her child is the victim and just trying to be nice and inclusive, then her kid goes out of her way to target my kid... I couldn’t let it stand. I needed her to understand what’s actually happening - this kid lied, continues to lie, harass my kid while she’s trying to carefully watch her step around her (because again, her kid lied...).
Couple all this with the imbalanced power structure with her mom being a teacher... I felt like she needed to know. But an isolated incident? Definitely do not call the principal.
An interesting thought I had last night. When the mom/teacher complained about my kid, I was called within 2 hours of the complaint, then teacher/mom was alerted that I was called. Second call came in less than 24 hours later, and CPS was immediately called. All told, 20 hours from initial meeting to CPS.
I called/emailed 40 hours ago, and the only thing I’ve heard is “I’m looking into it”. Hmm. Principal didn’t investigate ANYTHING when it was my kid. She just reported to the authorities. But now that the other kid is causing an issue? A lengthy, time-consuming investigation.
Neat. Seems fair.
ETA: it was less than 24 hours from initial complaint to CPS. 2:15pm Monday complaint, 12:15pm Tuesday CPS. I called the principal at 3:30pm on Tuesday. Still waiting as of 11am Thursday.