badgergrl lost any credibility she may have had when she claimed that she KNEW this happened in an area on the ship where the windows were "sunglasses dark" tint and 6 feet high. Obviously not the case.
This is all very sad, and the criminal charge seems like a waste of resources. But, the whole RC trying to prove they weren't liable makes sense. Though, couldn't the grandpa be found guilty, and RC still found partly liable since the civil threshold of proof is different.
badgergrl lost any credibility she may have had when she claimed that she KNEW this happened in an area on the ship where the windows were "sunglasses dark" tint and 6 feet high. Obviously not the case.
This is all very sad, and the criminal charge seems like a waste of resources. But, the whole RC trying to prove they weren't liable makes sense. Though, couldn't the grandpa be found guilty, and RC still found partly liable since the civil threshold of proof is different.
Yes, there would be two different trials.
A civil case for damages where the family sues RC. RC will try to say that they weren't at fault and that grandpa was negligent.
The criminal case doesn't have anything to do with RC. I believe the article said that the criminal case will be in San Juan. It is the state bringing criminal charges against the grandfather.
Yes, the cases could have entirely different results. Not only will the burden of proof be different, but two different juries could have entirely different results.
I think charging the grandfather with a crime is horrible given it was an accident, but at the same time I don't think RC should be held liable for anything either. The deck this happened on is the pool deck, not just a children's play area. The play area is the pool and splash area for all ages and there's a bar right there also. There's a big space between the pool area and the windows and there's a wooden safety rail in front of the windows.
This guy made a video of the deck on his vacation and I think it shows the area pretty well and shows the wooden safety rail set about 6 inches in front of the windows at about the 1:45 mark.
I think charging the grandfather with a crime is horrible given it was an accident, but at the same time I don't think RC should be held liable for anything either. The deck this happened on is the pool deck, not just a children's play area. The play area is the pool and splash area for all ages and there's a bar right there also. There's a big space between the pool area and the windows and there's a wooden safety rail in front of the windows.
This guy made a video of the deck on his vacation and I think it shows the area pretty well and shows the wooden safety rail set about 6 inches in front of the windows at about the 1:45 mark.
You can tell the windows are open. The windows that are closed are tinted, the ones that are next to open ones are notably darker and the open ones are absolutely clear and you can see the handles/frames on the sliders because they don't fully pull into the frames. That being said, I think grandpa was careless in not noticing but I don't believe it's criminal. I think he likely put her up there thinking he'd be able to hold her while she looked out and she wriggled out of his arms and he can't face that responsibility. It's shock, horror and denial that's telling him that he thought the window was closed. JMHO.
There's no way to know that for sure, but I can relate (and am) to something similar (because of course I can.) My babysitter did something similar on a playground carousel when the girls' mom was a toddler, about the same age as this baby. I let my sitter and her sister (teen and tween) take the girls while I stayed in our house with my newborn son; they were my neighbors' kids and had spent the entire summer playing with the girls when I was super-pregnant. They had been told innumerable times she was too young for the carousel; I didn't restate it that day, figuring they knew by then, but that day they decided it would be fun and they would be super-careful and it would be okay. The younger sister was holding her and they were spinning, likely faster than she realized; my daughter got scared and forced herself out of the girl's arms and went flying into hard-packed dirt, breaking her face in three places on the left side. You don't realize how strong and wriggly they can get; you think you're so much bigger and can handle them and hold onto them, you love them and would never risk them and just want to give them everything they want, including looking out a window to see other big ships in the harbor and the little people running around like tiny ants way down below. His playing with her in the window cost her life and how could he face it except by thinking "I thought it was safe."
I think charging the grandfather with a crime is horrible given it was an accident, but at the same time I don't think RC should be held liable for anything either. The deck this happened on is the pool deck, not just a children's play area. The play area is the pool and splash area for all ages and there's a bar right there also. There's a big space between the pool area and the windows and there's a wooden safety rail in front of the windows.
This guy made a video of the deck on his vacation and I think it shows the area pretty well and shows the wooden safety rail set about 6 inches in front of the windows at about the 1:45 mark.
You can tell the windows are open in the clear spots. The windows that are closed are tinted, the ones that are next to open ones are notably darker and the open ones are absolutely clear and you can see the frames of the windows on the runners and partially exposed because they don't open all the way. That being said, I think grandpa was careless in not noticing but I don't believe it's criminal. I think he likely put her up there thinking he'd be able to hold her while she looked out and she wriggled out of his arms and he can't face that responsibility. It's shock, horror and denial that's telling him that he thought the window was closed. JMHO.
But also, only the upper windows (that open) are tinted. The lower bank of windows, which are solid and don't open, are clear, making them look like the upper windows when they're open. I think that contributed to the confusion.
Post by missmissy234 on Oct 31, 2019 10:54:22 GMT -5
I think *most* agree that charging the grandfather is a horrible thing to pursue. Someone up thread mentioned the punishment of losing his granddaughter is enough.
What I don't understand is the family suing RC for negligence (or whatever they are suing them for). If I look at the pictures correctly, the windows weren't on the ground floor. You would have to physically lift someone up or heave yourself up over the railing to get out that window. How is RC negligent?
**Obviously not a lawyer, so my terms could be inaccurate.
What the grandfather did is akin to dangling you kid off the roof of a 10 story building- the child’s death was foreseeable and the grandfathers actions were reckless.
Having been on that area of the ship i can say there is no way he couldn’t tell the window was open. The windows are deeply tinted. Like sunglasses.
Would you like to come and follow up on your tinted window theory?
I think *most* agree that charging the grandfather is a horrible thing to pursue. Someone up thread mentioned the punishment of losing his granddaughter is enough.
What I don't understand is the family suing RC for negligence (or whatever they are suing them for). If I look at the pictures correctly, the windows weren't on the ground floor. You would have to physically lift someone up or heave yourself up over the railing to get out that window. How is RC negligent?
**Obviously not a lawyer, so my terms could be inaccurate.
-I am only speaking about the criminal charges. Civil is an hole different matter.
This is always my issue. Clearly, it was an accident. Clearly, the grandfather loved that kid and never intended for that death to occur. I don't get the point of charging. The family is all supporting him and then will now be drug through this trial for the next fucking year in a country they are not familiar with and will have to fly back and forth and the parents get to sit in multiple hearings listening about how their beautiful girl was killed. There will be pictures, testimonies, over and over again for what purpose?
I get I am a defense attorney but these cases just make me angry and don't allow for the families to try and find peace. Nor does his potential conviction serve any purpose for the community.
What the grandfather did is akin to dangling you kid off the roof of a 10 story building- the child’s death was foreseeable and the grandfathers actions were reckless.
Having been on that area of the ship i can say there is no way he couldn’t tell the window was open. The windows are deeply tinted. Like sunglasses.
Would you like to come and follow up on your tinted window theory?
Nope. Unless color blind people can’t feel the wind whipping through an open window 11 stories up. Even if he couldn’t see the color differential he would have felt the strong breeze present on cruise ships.
The grandfather didn’t think. He put the baby up in the open window knowingly. He didn’t intend to drop her but he did. Now he’s blaming someone else for his mistakes.
Would you like to come and follow up on your tinted window theory?
Nope. Unless color blind people can’t feel the wind whipping through an open window 11 stories up. Even if he couldn’t see the color differential he would have felt the strong breeze present on cruise ships.
The grandfather didn’t think. He put the baby up in the open window knowingly. He didn’t intend to drop her but he did. Now he’s blaming someone else for his mistakes.
Would you like to come and follow up on your tinted window theory?
Nope. Unless color blind people can’t feel the wind whipping through an open window 11 stories up. Even if he couldn’t see the color differential he would have felt the strong breeze present on cruise ships.
The grandfather didn’t think. He put the baby up in the open window knowingly. He didn’t intend to drop her but he did. Now he’s blaming someone else for his mistakes.
Keep on digging...
You say he put a baby in an open window “KNOWINGLY”...do you have anything to support that he knew it was an open window?
Or that winds were “whipping” through on a ship that was docked (aka NOT moving)?
To say it’s the the same as dangling a child outside a window is even more crazy (not that it wasn’t before..) given the new information coming out.
Would you like to come and follow up on your tinted window theory?
Nope. Unless color blind people can’t feel the wind whipping through an open window 11 stories up. Even if he couldn’t see the color differential he would have felt the strong breeze present on cruise ships.
The grandfather didn’t think. He put the baby up in the open window knowingly. He didn’t intend to drop her but he did. Now he’s blaming someone else for his mistakes.
The ship was docked. That strong breeze is when ships are underway.
I think *most* agree that charging the grandfather is a horrible thing to pursue. Someone up thread mentioned the punishment of losing his granddaughter is enough.
What I don't understand is the family suing RC for negligence (or whatever they are suing them for). If I look at the pictures correctly, the windows weren't on the ground floor. You would have to physically lift someone up or heave yourself up over the railing to get out that window. How is RC negligent?
**Obviously not a lawyer, so my terms could be inaccurate.
-I am only speaking about the criminal charges. Civil is an hole different matter.
This is always my issue. Clearly, it was an accident. Clearly, the grandfather loved that kid and never intended for that death to occur. I don't get the point of charging. The family is all supporting him and then will now be drug through this trial for the next fucking year in a country they are not familiar with and will have to fly back and forth and the parents get to sit in multiple hearings listening about how their beautiful girl was killed. There will be pictures, testimonies, over and over again for what purpose?
I get I am a defense attorney but these cases just make me angry and don't allow for the families to try and find peace. Nor does his potential conviction serve any purpose for the community.
It is ridiculous.
@@@@ There is another case I read about recently about a mom being charged after an accident. I wish I could remember the state or city so I could google it.
But she was at the airport with multiple kids at baggage claim trying to get their luggage. One of the kids was standing next to an escalator nearby while her back was turned getting the luggage and somehow his clothing got caught in it and he was carried up the escalator and got thrown off and died.
A warrant was placed for her arrest and she had just turned herself in. What a horrible thing to have to deal with. Makes no sense to me. Now the rest of the kids are going to potentially lose their mother for some period of time.
Nope. Unless color blind people can’t feel the wind whipping through an open window 11 stories up. Even if he couldn’t see the color differential he would have felt the strong breeze present on cruise ships.
The grandfather didn’t think. He put the baby up in the open window knowingly. He didn’t intend to drop her but he did. Now he’s blaming someone else for his mistakes.
The ship was docked. That strong breeze is when ships are underway.
Not to mention, when the ship is underway, it's really fucking hard to tell where the breeze is coming from.
-I am only speaking about the criminal charges. Civil is an hole different matter.
This is always my issue. Clearly, it was an accident. Clearly, the grandfather loved that kid and never intended for that death to occur. I don't get the point of charging. The family is all supporting him and then will now be drug through this trial for the next fucking year in a country they are not familiar with and will have to fly back and forth and the parents get to sit in multiple hearings listening about how their beautiful girl was killed. There will be pictures, testimonies, over and over again for what purpose?
I get I am a defense attorney but these cases just make me angry and don't allow for the families to try and find peace. Nor does his potential conviction serve any purpose for the community.
It is ridiculous.
@@@@ There is another case I read about recently about a mom being charged after an accident. I wish I could remember the state or city so I could google it.
But she was at the airport with multiple kids at baggage claim trying to get their luggage. One of the kids was standing next to an escalator nearby while her back was turned getting the luggage and somehow his clothing got caught in it and he was carried up the escalator and got thrown off and died.
A warrant was placed for her arrest and she had just turned herself in. What a horrible thing to have to deal with. Makes no sense to me. Now the rest of the kids are going to potentially lose their mother for some period of time.
I feel like these criminal cases, are a pre-emptive tactic to keep families from suing the big businesses where the children died, rather than seeking any sort of actual justice. If you think about it, they airports and cruise ships have relationships with law enforcement, pretty strong ones, given the volume of people they bring in to be policed, having the nod from law enforcement that another person was criminally negligent, makes a lawsuit that much more unlikely.
I would like to see the video of the kid getting sucked into the escalator that shows the mom's negligence. Pretty much every area of airports is filmed, so there should be something showing she was negligent, not just that the child had an extremely unlucky accident. He is not the 1st child to die because of an escalator.
Would you like to come and follow up on your tinted window theory?
Nope. Unless color blind people can’t feel the wind whipping through an open window 11 stories up. Even if he couldn’t see the color differential he would have felt the strong breeze present on cruise ships.
The grandfather didn’t think. He put the baby up in the open window knowingly. He didn’t intend to drop her but he did. Now he’s blaming someone else for his mistakes.
Do you think parents should be charged criminally in all accidents? Someone driving 10 miles over the speed limit and gets in an accident where the child dies? Charge the parent? Driver fails to yield at an intersection. Just didn't see the oncoming car and a child dies. Charge the patent? Where does it end? I mean accidents happen all the time.
What about mom turning her back for a second and kid runs into the street. Charge the parent?
We aren't talking about civil cases here. Do you really want parents going to jail in such cases? Your views are extreme.
Well this story is very different than what is posted above. This does make it seem the mother was negligent.
This is a different article than I read. The other article said he was standing by the escalator while mom was at baggage claim, not that he was playing on it for an hour.
Would you like to come and follow up on your tinted window theory?
Nope. Unless color blind people can’t feel the wind whipping through an open window 11 stories up. Even if he couldn’t see the color differential he would have felt the strong breeze present on cruise ships.
The grandfather didn’t think. He put the baby up in the open window knowingly. He didn’t intend to drop her but he did. Now he’s blaming someone else for his mistakes.
You are vile.
You must work for the cruise line in some capacity, because that is the only way to explain away how willfully ignorant you are being about this.
I know I'm overinvested in this thread. For those that think he should be criminally charged, is that what you would want if it was your dad? You've just lost your child. Would you want to see your dad go to prison now?
I know I'm overinvested in this thread. For those that think he should be criminally charged, is that what you would want if it was your dad? You've just lost your child. Would you want to see your dad go to prison now?
I don’t think anyone here has said he should be charged? I may be wrong.
He does bear some fault-BUT I think think he’s punishing himself enough. It’s a tragic accident.
I know I'm overinvested in this thread. For those that think he should be criminally charged, is that what you would want if it was your dad? You've just lost your child. Would you want to see your dad go to prison now?
I don’t think anyone here has said he should be charged? I may be wrong.
He does bear some fault-BUT I think think he’s punishing himself enough. It’s a tragic accident.
Badgergrl does. I thought there were a couple of others too. I'm not saying that he isn't at fault here at all. In a civil case, there very well may be some negligence on his part. But to charge him criminally seems cruel.
I don't think he should be charged. There is something that is not adding up in this case.
But I don't understand how you could put a toddler on that thin railing and leave them there. It's not wide enough to support them and they are too young to balance themselves. They could easily fall back and hit their head. Was he standing behind her when she fell? If he was then how could he not see the open window?
I don't think he did it intentionally, or he was somewhat intoxicated? Has that been discussed?
I could see how it would happen, but it still doesn't make complete sense.
So what I originally read as the description of what happened doesn't seem to be the case. According to the updated story (I think on CNN, according to the grandfather's own statement and the surveillance video footage), they were not walking along the bank of windows but crossed the area to that exact window. He lifted the little girl onto the railing, facing out the windows (so her back to her grandfather) (not clear if sitting or standing but I think standing), so she could bang on the glass like she liked to do at her brother's hockey games. He noticed that the railing was still relatively far away from the actual windows (hello, WARNING?) and she couldn't reach it, so he leaned her out farther...and that's how it happened.
These clarified facts I think explain why he's been charged. His actions were negligent beyond what a reasonable person would do.
So what I originally read as the description of what happened doesn't seem to be the case. According to the updated story (I think on CNN, according to the grandfather's own statement and the surveillance video footage), they were not walking along the bank of windows but crossed the area to that exact window. He lifted the little girl onto the railing, facing out the windows (so her back to her grandfather) (not clear if sitting or standing but I think standing), so she could bang on the glass like she liked to do at her brother's hockey games. He noticed that the railing was still relatively far away from the actual windows (hello, WARNING?) and she couldn't reach it, so he leaned her out farther...and that's how it happened.
These clarified facts I think explain why he's been charged. His actions were negligent beyond what a reasonable person would do.
My thing is that even if he was negligent, I still don't agree with him being criminally charged. Prosecutors can decide not to bring charges on things even when it's pretty clear that a crime has been committed. Prosecutors decline to file charges on things all the time for all sorts of reasons. We often see this with injuries or deaths stemming from someone leaving an unlocked/unsecured gun around a child...no one is made to answer for it because 'the family has been through enough already'.
So what good does it do in this case? What is accomplished? Is the public safer if this grandpa is behind bars? And why the double standard with gun 'accidents'? I just can't wrap my head around it.