So what I originally read as the description of what happened doesn't seem to be the case. According to the updated story (I think on CNN, according to the grandfather's own statement and the surveillance video footage), they were not walking along the bank of windows but crossed the area to that exact window. He lifted the little girl onto the railing, facing out the windows (so her back to her grandfather) (not clear if sitting or standing but I think standing), so she could bang on the glass like she liked to do at her brother's hockey games. He noticed that the railing was still relatively far away from the actual windows (hello, WARNING?) and she couldn't reach it, so he leaned her out farther...and that's how it happened.
These clarified facts I think explain why he's been charged. His actions were negligent beyond what a reasonable person would do.
My thing is that even if he was negligent, I still don't agree with him being criminally charged. Prosecutors can decide not to bring charges on things even when it's pretty clear that a crime has been committed. Prosecutors decline to file charges on things all the time for all sorts of reasons. We often see this with injuries or deaths stemming from someone leaving an unlocked/unsecured gun around a child...no one is made to answer for it because 'the family has been through enough already'.
So what good does it do in this case? What is accomplished? Is the public safer if this grandpa is behind bars? And why the double standard with gun 'accidents'? I just can't wrap my head around it.
I 100% think there should be charges in gun death cases. I don’t usually believe in charging people to deter others (it’s generally ineffective and unfair) but I think with gun cases far too many people believe that they’re not responsible for what happens with their guns when they’re not in their hands. That needs to change.
I’m torn about this case. It seems unlikely to change anyone outside the family’s behavior and I’m sure his suffering is thorough and inescapable. My ex’s parents are very like the poster above (tee hee forgot the car seat but 4 is old enough, right?) and I something doesn’t seem totally innocent here. Maybe I’m biased.
So what I originally read as the description of what happened doesn't seem to be the case. According to the updated story (I think on CNN, according to the grandfather's own statement and the surveillance video footage), they were not walking along the bank of windows but crossed the area to that exact window. He lifted the little girl onto the railing, facing out the windows (so her back to her grandfather) (not clear if sitting or standing but I think standing), so she could bang on the glass like she liked to do at her brother's hockey games. He noticed that the railing was still relatively far away from the actual windows (hello, WARNING?) and she couldn't reach it, so he leaned her out farther...and that's how it happened.
These clarified facts I think explain why he's been charged. His actions were negligent beyond what a reasonable person would do.
My thing is that even if he was negligent, I still don't agree with him being criminally charged. Prosecutors can decide not to bring charges on things even when it's pretty clear that a crime has been committed. Prosecutors decline to file charges on things all the time for all sorts of reasons. We often see this with injuries or deaths stemming from someone leaving an unlocked/unsecured gun around a child...no one is made to answer for it because 'the family has been through enough already'.
So what good does it do in this case? What is accomplished? Is the public safer if this grandpa is behind bars? And why the double standard with gun 'accidents'? I just can't wrap my head around it.
I 100% think there should be charges in gun death cases. I don’t usually believe in charging people to deter others (it’s generally ineffective and unfair) but I think with gun cases far too many people believe that they’re not responsible for what happens with their guns when they’re not in their hands. That needs to change.
I’m torn about this case. It seems unlikely to change anyone outside the family’s behavior and I’m sure his suffering is thorough and inescapable. My ex’s parents are very like the poster above (tee hee forgot the car seat but 4 is old enough, right?) and I something doesn’t seem totally innocent here. Maybe I’m biased.
So what I originally read as the description of what happened doesn't seem to be the case. According to the updated story (I think on CNN, according to the grandfather's own statement and the surveillance video footage), they were not walking along the bank of windows but crossed the area to that exact window. He lifted the little girl onto the railing, facing out the windows (so her back to her grandfather) (not clear if sitting or standing but I think standing), so she could bang on the glass like she liked to do at her brother's hockey games. He noticed that the railing was still relatively far away from the actual windows (hello, WARNING?) and she couldn't reach it, so he leaned her out farther...and that's how it happened.
These clarified facts I think explain why he's been charged. His actions were negligent beyond what a reasonable person would do.
My thing is that even if he was negligent, I still don't agree with him being criminally charged. Prosecutors can decide not to bring charges on things even when it's pretty clear that a crime has been committed. Prosecutors decline to file charges on things all the time for all sorts of reasons. We often see this with injuries or deaths stemming from someone leaving an unlocked/unsecured gun around a child...no one is made to answer for it because 'the family has been through enough already'.
So what good does it do in this case? What is accomplished? Is the public safer if this grandpa is behind bars? And why the double standard with gun 'accidents'? I just can't wrap my head around it.
I don't think he should be charged. There is something that is not adding up in this case.
But I don't understand how you could put a toddler on that thin railing and leave them there. It's not wide enough to support them and they are too young to balance themselves. They could easily fall back and hit their head. Was he standing behind her when she fell? If he was then how could he not see the open window?
Maybe read about the case? He did not leave her there.
Post by sapphireblue on Nov 29, 2019 15:51:40 GMT -5
I certainly do not think the grandfather should be charged with anything. He is and will be punishing himself for the rest of his life, poor man.
However--I do think he was negligent. I cannot imagine putting my child on that thin little railing at all, but if I did, I would have my arms around her the whole time. I would be far too nervous to let her up there without also holding on to her. And that is if the only fall she would possibly have were to the floor!
I would also be nervous of her falling forward, crashing into the glass, and hitting her head/forehead badly on it, so it doesn't really seem safe to me even if there were glass in place to put a child up on the railing.
That being said, I still do not think charging this man serves any purpose. He is punishing himself enough, I am sure.
I 100% think there should be charges in gun death cases. I don’t usually believe in charging people to deter others (it’s generally ineffective and unfair) but I think with gun cases far too many people believe that they’re not responsible for what happens with their guns when they’re not in their hands. That needs to change.
I struggle a lot with this one. My 13 year old daughter saw a scene outside with two older kids, and came to get me. Admittedly, I blew it off for 5-10 minutes, as teen drama, and came out, just as the police were arriving. It was a gun related death of a minor, who had access to the guns within his home. Everyday, I look at that house and think, if only the parents had locked up the guns and/or the ammunition, and am grateful that he only did damage to himself. We all make mistakes with our kids, but this seems like a huge one to me. Everyone suffers, but it seems like if these parents, who were by all reports model parents, didn't take gun safety seriously, then is anyone? How do we change that and is there a way to do it without causing further trauma to a family and community, or is that the only way they will change behavior, like when DUI started being something that suburban parents were arrested for in the 80's?
Shocking. The video evidence shows the grandfather knew damn well the window was open because he himself leaned out the open window. As I stated over and over if you have never been on this boat you didn’t know what you are talking about. After seeing this video it Affirms my position that grandpa knowingly dangled his granddaughter out a window an should be criminally charged.
Shocking. The video evidence shows the grandfather knew damn well the window was open because he himself leaned out the open window. As I stated over and over if you have never been on this boat you didn’t know what you are talking about. After seeing this video it Affirms my position that grandpa knowingly dangled his granddaughter out a window an should be criminally charged.
I still do not think charges are appropriate, despite him being so stupid. He has to live with the horrible truth and that is pretty awful.
Shocking. The video evidence shows the grandfather knew damn well the window was open because he himself leaned out the open window. As I stated over and over if you have never been on this boat you didn’t know what you are talking about. After seeing this video it Affirms my position that grandpa knowingly dangled his granddaughter out a window an should be criminally charged.
Wow badgergrl you must be over the moon at being right about this one. Good for you. I'm so happy that all is right in your world now.
I mean seriously.
The family does not want him charged. He has already suffered the horrific consequences of this. He made a terrible mistake but I think we've all made split second decisions that could have resulted in horrible accidents are were lucky they didn't. But maybe badgergrl never has and is better than the rest of us.
Shocking. The video evidence shows the grandfather knew damn well the window was open because he himself leaned out the open window. As I stated over and over if you have never been on this boat you didn’t know what you are talking about. After seeing this video it Affirms my position that grandpa knowingly dangled his granddaughter out a window an should be criminally charged.
You are so rabid.
As someone who has dedicated their life to protecting children through being a prosecutor I take that as a compliment.
I wonder what he told his family though. Because I would think if he told them the truth then they wouldn't have sued. Or maybe it's one of those things that you completely black out about because it's so traumatic. So he assumed he didn't know it was open because how else could he reconcile what he did in his head?
In any case, the poor man. The poor family, and that poor baby.
The family not wanting the grandfather charged with negligent homicide (the charge against him) is irrelevant. Individuals do not get to determine which law is charged when a death happens.
Let's look at it this way: If the grandfather was drinking and got behind the wheel while he was driving his granddaughter home, got into an accident, and the child died, then not one of you would think he shouldn't be charged with negligent homicide. In this hypo, he was intoxicated and presumably knew NOT to get behind the wheel under the influence. He didn't mean to get into an accident. He didn't mean for his granddaughter to die.
In this case, video evidence is showing that the grandfather may very well have known that the window was open. He would have known just how high up they were from the ground. If he, in any way, knew that lifting his granddaughter over the railing was dangerous and the result of his choice would lead to her death, then I think it's appropriate to continue to charge him with negligent homicide and let it go to trial.
Accidents can be criminal and one can be criminally liable per the law. In this case I think the grandfather should stand trial for his actions. It is heartbreaking and a terrible circumstance, but that doesn't change the law.
I guess this is a case where you can see what an individual thinks the criminal justice system should be used for. Is it meant as punishment, or meant to keep the community safe?
badgergrl, if this was your father, would you want him to go to jail?
If he knowingly dangled my child out of an 11 story window causing her death? Yes. But remember being prosecuted doesn’t mean jail. It can mean community supervision and treatment
Shocking. The video evidence shows the grandfather knew damn well the window was open because he himself leaned out the open window. As I stated over and over if you have never been on this boat you didn’t know what you are talking about. After seeing this video it Affirms my position that grandpa knowingly dangled his granddaughter out a window an should be criminally charged.
badgergrl, if this was your father, would you want him to go to jail?
If he knowingly dangled my child out of an 11 story window causing her death? Yes. But remember being prosecuted doesn’t mean jail. It can mean community supervision and treatment
Supervision for what? Treatment for what? Is that a great use of resources?
badgergrl , if this was your father, would you want him to go to jail?
If he knowingly dangled my child out of an 11 story window causing her death? Yes. But remember being prosecuted doesn’t mean jail. It can mean community supervision and treatment
It might not mean jail, but it could. Wow! You're pretty harsh.
Unless he was drunk, I don't equate this to drinking and driving. Yes, it wasn't a good idea, obviously. But people pick up their kids to let them see things all the time. In reality any young child could die when lifted onto someone's shoulders should they fall six feet onto concrete. Adult's "throw" babies into the air for a giggle and one slippery hand could create a tragedy.
I'd hazard to guess every single parent has been one lucky second away from being charged with negligence at some point in their life.
Why are some of y'all so hell bent that it's the absolutely wrong thing to prosecute the grandfather? Because as hard as badgergrl is supporting the decision to charge him, some of y'all are just as vehemently against it (and have resorted to generally attacking badgergrl 's character and not her argument.)
Frankly, I miss actual intellectual arguments around here. We spend entirely too much time getting caught up in all the feels.*
*Obvously, I'm 100% aware that this is an extremely emotional case. A child has died and a family is wrecked and I care very much about that. I just would enjoy some intelligent discourse around here rather than, you know, a pile on.
badgergrl, if this was your father, would you want him to go to jail?
By that same token, if it was your father who’d left a loaded gun accessible or crashed while driving drunk with the same consequences, wouldn’t you want criminal charges?
Well, maybe “want” is the wrong word, but you’d understand why they’d be brought, no?
Why are some of y'all so hell bent that it's the absolutely wrong thing to prosecute the grandfather? Because as hard as badgergrl is supporting the decision to charge him, some of y'all are just as vehemently against it (and have resorted to generally attacking badgergrl 's character and not her argument.)
Frankly, I miss actual intellectual arguments around here. We spend entirely too much time getting caught up in all the feels.*
*Obvously, I'm 100% aware that this is an extremely emotional case. A child has died and a family is wrecked and I care very much about that. I just would enjoy some intelligent discourse around here rather than, you know, a pile on.
As has already been stated -- what purpose does it serve? How is this a good use of resources?
Why are some of y'all so hell bent that it's the absolutely wrong thing to prosecute the grandfather? Because as hard as badgergrl is supporting the decision to charge him, some of y'all are just as vehemently against it (and have resorted to generally attacking badgergrl 's character and not her argument.)
Frankly, I miss actual intellectual arguments around here. We spend entirely too much time getting caught up in all the feels.*
*Obviously, I'm 100% aware that this is an extremely emotional case. A child has died and a family is wrecked and I care very much anout that. I just would enjoy some intelligent discourse around here rather than, you know, a pile on.
As has already been stated -- what purpose does it serve? How is this a good use of resources?
That's not how the law works! The purpose it serves is to UPHOLD THE LAW. The law provides for the criminal prosecution of actions that meet the relevant criteria. He's being charged. There is now an investigation to further decide if evidence will up hold the prosecutors case. If it does, than it will go to trial or he and his attorneys can settle. If there is not enough evidence to uphold prosecuting the law, than it won't get prosecuted.
But don't come at me with this idea that as a society we should just be "Oh but he's suffered enough!" and than it's OK to just pat him on the hand and go "there, there." He acted in a way that killed a child. He didn't do it on purpose, but the child still died. I'm sure he feels really awful. I'm sure this is extremely traumatic for him and his family. But that's not reason enough not to charge him.
And c'mon. Badgergirl sounds positively GLEEFUL. That's fucking disgusting.
I don’t think that is entirely fair. People piled on (and are still piling on), telling her she’s talking out of her ass, and it turns out she was correct. Or at least appears more correct than those insisting there was no way he knew the window was open. The vindication is strong here and I don’t think she’s jumping for joy over the tragedy. But I can see why she’d be ripshit pissed at her treatment here.