That's not how the law works! The purpose it serves is to UPHOLD THE LAW. The law provides for the criminal prosecution of actions that meet the relevant criteria. He's being charged. There is now an investigation to further decide if evidence will up hold the prosecutors case. If it does, than it will go to trial or he and his attorneys can settle. If there is not enough evidence to uphold prosecuting the law, than it won't get prosecuted.
But don't come at me with this idea that as a society we should just be "Oh but he's suffered enough!" and than it's OK to just pat him on the hand and go "there, there." He acted in a way that killed a child. He didn't do it on purpose, but the child still died. I'm sure he feels really awful. I'm sure this is extremely traumatic for him and his family. But that's not reason enough not to charge him.
There are PLENTY of cases where a parent or caregiver acted negligently, a child died, and the person is not charged.
OK. Chapter and verse. Please give me a recent example and let's compare cases.
I think this is a good article that brings up the question a lot of us are one opposite sides of: when should caregivers be charged [in the death of a child]?
badgergrl, if this was your father, would you want him to go to jail?
By that same token, if it was your father who’d left a loaded gun accessible or crashed while driving drunk with the same consequences, wouldn’t you want criminal charges?
Well, maybe “want” is the wrong word, but you’d understand why they’d be brought, no?
I don't think so, but at any rate, those aren't the facts here.
I’m curious why this is different from when Michael Jackson held his baby out over a balcony. That was met with outrage and I’m sure if the child had been injured or god forbid died there would have been an investigation and possibly charges.
In both cases, an adult who was the caregiver for a child went to an known open window/balcony, lifted a child over a railing, and held then out over air. In one case they were 11 stories up and another was 5 stories.
I think the cruise line is in a tough spot here. They are being blamed for this horrible accident, and it seems like they are just trying to prove that they do not, in fact, have an unsafe space for children but rather that the grandfather did something unsafe.
I’m curious why this is different from when Michael Jackson held his baby out over a balcony. That was met with outrage and I’m sure if the child had been injured or god forbid died there would have been an investigation and possibly charges.
In both cases, an adult who was the caregiver for a child went to an known open window/balcony, lifted a child over a railing, and held then out over air. In one case they were 11 stories up and another was 5 stories.
I think the cruise line is in a tough spot here. They are being blamed for this horrible accident, and it seems like they are just trying to prove that they do not, in fact, have an unsafe space for children but rather that the grandfather did something unsafe.
Putting aside whether or not the grandfather should be charged...
The bolded is how I feel. The ship did not have an unsafe place for children. No 2 year old with proper adult supervision would be able to fall out of that window on their own. An adult put her in an unsafe situation in an otherwise safe space for her. That is not on the cruise ship. Not the best example, but would they be to blame if the grandfather gave her a steak knife at dinner on the cruise one night and she injured herself? No.
I’m curious why this is different from when Michael Jackson held his baby out over a balcony. That was met with outrage and I’m sure if the child had been injured or god forbid died there would have been an investigation and possibly charges.
In both cases, an adult who was the caregiver for a child went to an known open window/balcony, lifted a child over a railing, and held then out over air. In one case they were 11 stories up and another was 5 stories.
I think the cruise line is in a tough spot here. They are being blamed for this horrible accident, and it seems like they are just trying to prove that they do not, in fact, have an unsafe space for children but rather that the grandfather did something unsafe.
Putting aside whether or not the grandfather should be charged...
The bolded is how I feel. The ship did not have an unsafe place for children. No 2 year old with proper adult supervision would be able to fall out of that window on their own. An adult put her in an unsafe situation in an otherwise safe space for her. That is not on the cruise ship. Not the best example, but would they be to blame if the grandfather gave her a steak knife at dinner on the cruise one night and she injured herself? No.
which is where i fall/ i wonder about. He lied. He said he couldn’t tell the window was open. But now it’s clear he did know. If he hadn’t lied, maybe the cruise line wouldn’t have felt put in a corner and then the need to prosecute.
Putting aside whether or not the grandfather should be charged...
The bolded is how I feel. The ship did not have an unsafe place for children. No 2 year old with proper adult supervision would be able to fall out of that window on their own. An adult put her in an unsafe situation in an otherwise safe space for her. That is not on the cruise ship. Not the best example, but would they be to blame if the grandfather gave her a steak knife at dinner on the cruise one night and she injured herself? No.
which is where i fall/ i wonder about. He lied. He said he couldn’t tell the window was open. But now it’s clear he did know. If he hadn’t lied, maybe the cruise line wouldn’t have felt put in a corner and then the need to prosecute.
The cruise line doesn't prosecute. These are entirely two separate things.
One is the state filing criminal charges against grandpa. The cruise line has nothing to do with this.
Two is the civil case between the family and the cruise line.
For the record, I don't think the cruise line is at fault here. But that is an entirely separate issue from the criminal case.
Roght now this isnt about the law, it's about the way badgergrl came in guns blazing. A simple "I don't have all the facts" would have been fine. And she came back with more blaze to announce SHE WAS RIGHT. We are collectively smart enough to work our way through the "if this, then that" of it.
And her righteousness seems to be important to her than a family's pain. So yeah, my feels are up.
Putting aside whether or not the grandfather should be charged...
The bolded is how I feel. The ship did not have an unsafe place for children. No 2 year old with proper adult supervision would be able to fall out of that window on their own. An adult put her in an unsafe situation in an otherwise safe space for her. That is not on the cruise ship. Not the best example, but would they be to blame if the grandfather gave her a steak knife at dinner on the cruise one night and she injured herself? No.
which is where i fall/ i wonder about. He lied. He said he couldn’t tell the window was open. But now it’s clear he did know. If he hadn’t lied, maybe the cruise line wouldn’t have felt put in a corner and then the need to prosecute.
Yes! I mean it’s quite a change in story and feels like he really put some effort into the lie?
I’m color blind so I couldn’t tell the difference between a closed green window and an open one. So I picked up the baby to let her bang on the windows - way different from - I leaned out an open window, then picked up the baby, lifted her over a railing, then held her out in the air.
I have to imagine that if he had told the truth the first time no one would have sued the cruise ship.
which is where i fall/ i wonder about. He lied. He said he couldn’t tell the window was open. But now it’s clear he did know. If he hadn’t lied, maybe the cruise line wouldn’t have felt put in a corner and then the need to prosecute.
Yes! I mean it’s quite a change in story and feels like he really put some effort into the lie?
I’m color blind so I couldn’t tell the difference between a closed green window and an open one. So I picked up the baby to let her bang on the windows - way different from - I leaned out an open window, then picked up the baby, lifted her over a railing, then held her out in the air.
I have to imagine that if he had told the truth the first time no one would have sued the cruise ship.
I'm not so sure about this, though. I think the family likely would still have sued the cruise ship, with the argument being that the window shouldn't be open in the first place or that there should be adequate signage warning or prohibiting people from leaning out (or holding someone over) the open window.
And c'mon. Badgergirl sounds positively GLEEFUL. That's fucking disgusting.
I don’t think that is entirely fair. People piled on (and are still piling on), telling her she’s talking out of her ass, and it turns out she was correct. Or at least appears more correct than those insisting there was no way he knew the window was open. The vindication is strong here and I don’t think she’s jumping for joy over the tragedy. But I can see why she’d be ripshit pissed at her treatment here.
Thank you rosiebear.
I am in no way gleeful. This whole situation is terrible. But go back and read how all this started. I told you all that what the grandfather was saying wasn’t possible based on personal knowledge. And then a whole bunch of people said I was wrong - people who haven’t been on this ship.
I can not understand how an adult literally lifting a baby out an open window isn’t outraging to anyone. If it turns out he was drunk will that make people mad? Can we at least now agree that it appears through the available evidence that this is not the ships fault?
Edited to add: where is the outrage that this grandfather repeatedly lied about knowing the window was open. Doesn’t the fact that he lied and put out this ridiculous story about color blindness show he knew what he did was wrong?
Putting aside whether or not the grandfather should be charged...
The bolded is how I feel. The ship did not have an unsafe place for children. No 2 year old with proper adult supervision would be able to fall out of that window on their own. An adult put her in an unsafe situation in an otherwise safe space for her. That is not on the cruise ship. Not the best example, but would they be to blame if the grandfather gave her a steak knife at dinner on the cruise one night and she injured herself? No.
which is where i fall/ i wonder about. He lied. He said he couldn’t tell the window was open. But now it’s clear he did know. If he hadn’t lied, maybe the cruise line wouldn’t have felt put in a corner and then the need to prosecute.
I don’t think any of us are in position to say he “lied” after such a traumatic experience.
Edit: Has anyone of us been involved in a traumatic experience where stories are different dependent on who your ask, even when those with a different view point are very, very close to you and what happened?
I have, and the word “lied” is very triggering for me, pisses me off and (more importantly) a very big leap of judgment IMO for anyone that thinks that.
which is where i fall/ i wonder about. He lied. He said he couldn’t tell the window was open. But now it’s clear he did know. If he hadn’t lied, maybe the cruise line wouldn’t have felt put in a corner and then the need to prosecute.
I don’t think any of us are in position to say he “lied” after such a traumatic experience.
The pictures show he leaned out the window himself before lifting the girl. So him saying he couldn’t tell the window was open is a lie.
He chose to go on tv and claim this was a dangerous situation in a kids area created by RC and He didn’t known the window was open. We know now that’s untrue.
I don’t think any of us are in position to say he “lied” after such a traumatic experience.
The pictures show he leaned out the window himself before lifting the girl. So him saying he couldn’t tell the window was open is a lie.
He chose to go on tv and claim this was a dangerous situation in a kids area created by RC and He didn’t known the window was open. We know now that’s untrue.
You are gross...
Do you work for the cruise line? It’s weird that you’re asking us to agree that it’s not the cruise lines fault...which was not what this thread was even discussing.
The pictures show he leaned out the window himself before lifting the girl. So him saying he couldn’t tell the window was open is a lie.
He chose to go on tv and claim this was a dangerous situation in a kids area created by RC and He didn’t known the window was open. We know now that’s untrue.
You are gross...
Why? She’s not wrong about the information that’s come up that doesn’t corroborate the grandfather’s original story.
She hasn’t said “I hope that mofo rots in prison!” She hasn't even wished for him to go to jail. She’s pointing out the facts. I’m not understanding where the hate is coming from unless y’all have had previous run-ins.
I don’t think that is entirely fair. People piled on (and are still piling on), telling her she’s talking out of her ass, and it turns out she was correct. Or at least appears more correct than those insisting there was no way he knew the window was open. The vindication is strong here and I don’t think she’s jumping for joy over the tragedy. But I can see why she’d be ripshit pissed at her treatment here.
Thank you rosiebear.
I am in no way gleeful. This whole situation is terrible. But go back and read how all this started. I told you all that what the grandfather was saying wasn’t possible based on personal knowledge. And then a whole bunch of people said I was wrong - people who haven’t been on this ship.
I can not understand how an adult literally lifting a baby out an open window isn’t outraging to anyone. If it turns out he was drunk will that make people mad? Can we at least now agree that it appears through the available evidence that this is not the ships fault?
Edited to add: where is the outrage that this grandfather repeatedly lied about knowing the window was open. Doesn’t the fact that he lied and put out this ridiculous story about color blindness show he knew what he did was wrong?
I don't think the cruise line is at fault. I think the grandpa did something stupid and dangerous. It sounds like grandpa lied. I still don't think that criminal charges should be filed. This poor guy has to live with this for the rest of his life. To me, that is punishment enough. And it doesn't help the daughter who just lost her child see her father being prosecuted and possibly going to jail.
Why? She’s not wrong about the information that’s come up that doesn’t corroborate the grandfather’s original story.
She hasn’t said “I hope that mofo rots in prison!” She hasn't even wished for him to go to jail. She’s pointing out the facts. I’m not understanding where the hate is coming from unless y’all have had previous run-ins.
Maybe it’s too personal for me, the issue I have is related to the world “lie” after such a traumatic event.
Also, (and not necessarily related) is that the video hasn’t been released but only on screenshots.
Why? She’s not wrong about the information that’s come up that doesn’t corroborate the grandfather’s original story.
She hasn’t said “I hope that mofo rots in prison!” She hasn't even wished for him to go to jail. She’s pointing out the facts. I’m not understanding where the hate is coming from unless y’all have had previous run-ins.
Maybe it’s too personal for me, the issue I have is related to the world “lie” after such a traumatic event.
Also, (and not necessarily related) is that the video hasn’t been released but only on screenshots.
The video was submitted to the court along with the RCLs motion to dismiss the family’s claims. It was filed today I believe so I think it should be made public soon.
The pictures show he leaned out the window himself before lifting the girl. So him saying he couldn’t tell the window was open is a lie.
He chose to go on tv and claim this was a dangerous situation in a kids area created by RC and He didn’t known the window was open. We know now that’s untrue.
You are gross...
Do you work for the cruise line? It’s weird that you’re asking us to agree that it’s not the cruise lines fault...which was not what this thread was even discussing.
Ok, whoa. I don't think I've weighed in on this thread, but I have been following it and this is just ridiculous.
She's not being "gross." She's stating facts.
Fact: Grandfather said he didn't know the window was open. Also Fact: There is visual evidence of him leaning out the open window. Therefore, his statement that he didn't know the window was open is untrue. His statement was a lie.
Regardless of how you feel about the situation, let's not call someone "gross" for stating the most basic of facts about this tragedy.
The pictures show he leaned out the window himself before lifting the girl. So him saying he couldn’t tell the window was open is a lie.
He chose to go on tv and claim this was a dangerous situation in a kids area created by RC and He didn’t known the window was open. We know now that’s untrue.
You are gross...
Do you work for the cruise line? It’s weird that you’re asking us to agree that it’s not the cruise lines fault...which was not what this thread was even discussing.
Wow. Thanks for the personal attack.
I thought this was a board to have intelligent discussions about current events. But i guess when you are wrong instead of just saying that you personally attack others.
Do you work for the cruise line? It’s weird that you’re asking us to agree that it’s not the cruise lines fault...which was not what this thread was even discussing.
Wow. Thanks for the personal attack.
I thought this was a board to have intelligent discussions about current events. But i guess when you are wrong instead of just saying that you personally attack others.
What part of my previous post(s) was wrong, given what was shared to the media at that time?
You still are asking this board to agree that the cruise line isn’t responsible based of what has been shared to the media, which I find weird. We are not the jurors in this case, in addition the full evidence has not been disclosed to the public.
I think it’s gross to assume he “lied” and came on TV for the purpose of to do this, that and the other.
Edit: the word lie insinuates an intent. People remember things differently so I will not assume his intent.
Could he have been intentionally not telling the truth (lying)? Yes. Could he have been so traumatized by what happened that what really happened was a blur. Yes. Could it be anywhere in between. Yes.
The way our brains remember things and events is not clear cut.
Do not think we should assume intent based on media reports.
which is where i fall/ i wonder about. He lied. He said he couldn’t tell the window was open. But now it’s clear he did know. If he hadn’t lied, maybe the cruise line wouldn’t have felt put in a corner and then the need to prosecute.
The cruise line doesn't prosecute. These are entirely two separate things.
One is the state filing criminal charges against grandpa. The cruise line has nothing to do with this.
Two is the civil case between the family and the cruise line.
For the record, I don't think the cruise line is at fault here. But that is an entirely separate issue from the criminal case.
I see the thread has taken another turn, but anyway, I think ECB is referencing speculation earlier in this thread that Royal Caribbean is using its clout in Puerto Rico to push for prosecution in order to protect itself from liability and bad press.
I thought this was a board to have intelligent discussions about current events. But i guess when you are wrong instead of just saying that you personally attack others.
What part of my previous post(s) was wrong, given what was shared to the media at that time?
You still are asking this board to agree that the cruise line isn’t responsible based of what has been shared to the media, which I find weird. We are not the jurors in this case, in addition the full evidence has not been disclosed to the public.
I think it’s gross to assume he “lied” and came on TV for the purpose of to do this, that and the other.
Edit: the word lie insinuates an intent. People remember things differently so I will not assume his intent.
Could he have been intentionally not telling the truth (lying)? Yes. Could he have been so traumatized by what happened that what really happened was a blur. Yes. Could it be anywhere in between. Yes.
The way our brains remember things and events is not clear cut.
Do not think we should assume intent based on media reports.
I might Be more likely to agree with you if the grandfather hadn’t come out with the weird I’m colorblind so I could not see the window tint thing. That’s not just misremembering how you had leaned out the window and then literally hoisted a small child high into the air and then held her there for over 30 seconds and then dropped her. That’s adding something into the public narrative designed to mislead public opinion. Which based on the comments in this thread obviously worked on some people.
I totally see how reasonable people could disagree with criminal charges. I understand why people think the grandfather and family has gone through enough tragedy. I think my opinion on that is influenced from the time we have spent on ships. I can’t fathom how someone would do this. I won’t let my 10 year old out on the balcony on a ship alone because she theoretically could climb over the edge and fall. She’s a rule follower and would never do that but it’s not worth the risk. I would rather just closely supervise my kids. I can’t imagine why anyone would ever hold a kid out a window that high up in the air. Especially over their head like that where you would have so little control. It’s truly mind boggling to me.
I am just sick for the family and how preventable this was if he knew the window was open. I can’t even imagine their devastation in learning this news if they didn’t already realize he’d been leaning out that window.
There are PLENTY of cases where a parent or caregiver acted negligently, a child died, and the person is not charged.
OK. Chapter and verse. Please give me a recent example and let's compare cases.
Obviously TW: this case reminds a lot of the death of the boy at the Pittsburgh zoo a few years ago. Mom lifted boy onto railing 15 feet above an enclosure and he fell into the exhibit and died. Mom was not charged and zoo was sued and they settled. As someone who was at that dog exhibit multiple times, I couldn't fathom picking my child up and putting them on the railing.
In this cruise case, I think the grandfather should be charged especially as more evidence has come out. I have never been on a cruise so I will take the word of someone who knows the ship that it should have been obvious that lifting the girl was not something to be done.
What part of my previous post(s) was wrong, given what was shared to the media at that time?
You still are asking this board to agree that the cruise line isn’t responsible based of what has been shared to the media, which I find weird. We are not the jurors in this case, in addition the full evidence has not been disclosed to the public.
I think it’s gross to assume he “lied” and came on TV for the purpose of to do this, that and the other.
Edit: the word lie insinuates an intent. People remember things differently so I will not assume his intent.
Could he have been intentionally not telling the truth (lying)? Yes. Could he have been so traumatized by what happened that what really happened was a blur. Yes. Could it be anywhere in between. Yes.
The way our brains remember things and events is not clear cut.
Do not think we should assume intent based on media reports.
I might Be more likely to agree with you if the grandfather hadn’t come out with the weird I’m colorblind so I could not see the window tint thing. That’s not just misremembering how you had leaned out the window and then literally hoisted a small child high into the air and then held her there for over 30 seconds and then dropped her. That’s adding something into the public narrative designed to mislead public opinion. Which based on the comments in this thread obviously worked on some people.
I totally see how reasonable people could disagree with criminal charges. I understand why people think the grandfather and family has gone through enough tragedy. I think my opinion on that is influenced from the time we have spent on ships. I can’t fathom how someone would do this. I won’t let my 10 year old out on the balcony on a ship alone because she theoretically could climb over the edge and fall. She’s a rule follower and would never do that but it’s not worth the risk. I would rather just closely supervise my kids. I can’t imagine why anyone would ever hold a kid out a window that high up in the air. Especially over their head like that where you would have so little control. It’s truly mind boggling to me.
The grandfather also initially said he was bringing her to the window to bang on it like she did at her brothers hockey games. I can understand how traumatic it is for the grandfather and he may not remember things exactly as they happened because of how traumatic it was, but a lot of the initial stories that came out seemed to be him deflecting blame from himself. I read another report that said he was leaning out the window for 8 seconds before he went to get his grand daughter.
I also don’t get the pile-on for badger girl, there was actual name calling (vile, actual worst, etc) when she stated she didn’t believe the grandfathers story after being in the exact ship and there is still name calling for her stating the facts of the case. I understand this is a sensitive topic but this is the news, she provided an update to the thread that was relevant, whether most posters like the update or not.
Guys, it’s just all so sad. Maybe this would be a good one to hug it out over, send some apologetic DM’s, lift up all grieving families who have lost little ones. Especially today. Think hard and follow my drift.
Guys, it’s just all so sad. Maybe this would be a good one to hug it out over, send some apologetic DM’s, lift up all grieving families who have lost little ones. Especially today. Think hard and follow my drift.