Oh. Great Schools' rating steers families toward white schools. You don't say! #sarcasm Link here.
"...GreatSchools ratings effectively penalize schools that serve largely low-income students and those serving largely black and Hispanic students, generally giving them significantly lower ratings than schools serving more affluent and more white and Asian students, a Chalkbeat analysis found."
Oh.
And - “I think GreatSchools has a lot of responsibility to think deeply about how their platform is being utilized or not in relation to patterns of segregation,” said Francis Pearman, a Stanford professor who has studied the relationship between school choice and housing. “The notion that a quality school is necessarily one that is white and affluent is a problematic stance.”
One more: "On average, the more black and Hispanic students a school enrolled, and the more low-income students it served, the lower its rating."
A while back - a poster who is no longer on the board - and I got into a heated discussion about the concept of safety and what constitutes a good school when I repeatedly said that I have no issues sending my kid to a school in the middle of an urban/inner city/black neighborhood. Why? Because the school is amazing. And I'm not afraid of people who look like me.
This is true for the high school my kids will go to. Its rated a 5 by Great Schools, but was highlighted in the top tier of US schools by US World and News Reports last year, and got an A- score by another school ranking site (Niche.com). Anecdotally, I've heard nothing but praise. The demographic breakdown supports your argument:
Thanks for the link. I feel like every damn day I'm on my local mom group on Facebook telling Becky that yes, segregation does exist in our district and that no, Great Schools is not an unbiased source for how good a school is. I'll be adding this link to the reading I suggest in such posts.
I actually just went on a mini soap box about this from a “friend” who is looking to move to the area and wants to be where the “good schools are.” Which, no shit. Everyone wants to send their kids to good schools. A realtor was going to show him around, aka I am sure point him in the direction of all the white flight, affluent areas. I stated my case for the schools that have lower ratings, but I know are excellent. My kids are at those schools. My friends kids are at other schools with lower ratings, and they are extremely happy with their experience. All of our kids will go to the “inner city” (eyeroll) high school, which I know is excellent. And we get the joy of living in the city, close to amenities, instead of 20 minutes outside of the city.
As someone who moves often, we have a really hard time figuring out the school situation in our new location. It has become very clear to us that our family’s priorities with schools do not line up with Great Schools’ and other websites, and most people. My husband is a teacher so obviously he cares about academic freedoms for teachers and a supportive administration, and we want our son to go to diverse schools with an inclusive and culturally sensitive curriculum. We hit the jackpot in our current location, but only because we ignored GreatSchools....
Post by eponinepontmercy on Dec 6, 2019 11:17:16 GMT -5
Almost all the highly-rated schools in my area are charter schools. Shocking.
DD's school is only rated a 3, but we love it. According to Great Schools, it's 43% white and 38% low income.
We sent her to a catholic school for two years of preschool, and never felt comfortable. (Even though DH went there as a child and his uncle is the principal.) It may be a better school going by test scores, but that's not the only important thing in a school.
Our school is a 2 and 46% white, 62% low income. Such BS, it's a great school, great teachers but gets a bad rap because it's not all white. We are outgrowing our house and people are surprised to hear I want to stay in our district.
Great Schools had never applied to where I live so I can’t comment on that. I looked up my new city and it barely applies as there are only 4 elementary schools, one middle school, and one high school. All elementary schools are rated a 4. There was never a question of where we were going to send our kids as we wanted them to go to the Spanish immersion program which is only at one elementary school. But I am SO happy with that school. It has more SES variability and it has a very high diversity rate (I mean, for basically ND)(coming from zero anything is an improvement, but still). The only downside is that I have to drive my children every day since they don’t qualify for bussing.
Thanks for the link. I feel like every damn day I'm on my local mom group on Facebook telling Becky that yes, segregation does exist in our district and that no, Great Schools is not an unbiased source for how good a school is. I'll be adding this link to the reading I suggest in such posts.
We met with multiple real estate agents and narrowed it down to two. They were both great and had similar approaches. We wound up going with one largely because she’s black. Milwaukee has massive segregation problems and the overall school system is considered to be one of the worst of any city over 500k people. We wanted someone who wouldn’t just steer us toward white neighborhoods and wouldn’t just say the white schools are good. We figured we had a better shot at that with the black agent who lives in a largely black neighborhood. We now live in a pretty diverse neighborhood and are looking at pretty diverse schools.
As someone who moves often, we have a really hard time figuring out the school situation in our new location. It has become very clear to us that our family’s priorities with schools do not line up with Great Schools’ and other websites, and most people. My husband is a teacher so obviously he cares about academic freedoms for teachers and a supportive administration, and we want our son to go to diverse schools with an inclusive and culturally sensitive curriculum. We hit the jackpot in our current location, but only because we ignored GreatSchools....
My parents were in the same situation when I was growing up. My dad in the military and my mom a teacher. Obviously this was before the internet was so prevalent. I have distinct memories of her getting contacts of military families of the areas we were moving to and then spending lots of time calling people and getting inside info that way. Those families would put her in touch with other families and so forth. But she’s a people person and loves to talk to people haha.
Great Schools scoring is such a joke. Our school gets a low score because we are extremely diverse and title 1. Our school happens to be the only STEM magnet school in the district and is highly sought after.
I only use the website to look at the data (racial breakdown, testing) to get an idea about the school and then try to find people I know in the schools to get a real idea of how the school operates.
As someone who moves often, we have a really hard time figuring out the school situation in our new location. It has become very clear to us that our family’s priorities with schools do not line up with Great Schools’ and other websites, and most people. My husband is a teacher so obviously he cares about academic freedoms for teachers and a supportive administration, and we want our son to go to diverse schools with an inclusive and culturally sensitive curriculum. We hit the jackpot in our current location, but only because we ignored GreatSchools....
My parents were in the same situation when I was growing up. My dad in the military and my mom a teacher. Obviously this was before the internet was so prevalent. I have distinct memories of her getting contacts of military families of the areas we were moving to and then spending lots of time calling people and getting inside info that way. Those families would put her in touch with other families and so forth. But she’s a people person and loves to talk to people haha.
Word of mouth is also hard because of all of the coded language used around school quality. There aren’t as many military families that share our values about schools.
Is great schools based on anything other than test scores? (Which I realize would frequently over value schools in affluent areas, but I’m still wondering)
In the past - no. They claim to have improved their rating system, but it's still going to steer you to white, affluent schools.
My parents were in the same situation when I was growing up. My dad in the military and my mom a teacher. Obviously this was before the internet was so prevalent. I have distinct memories of her getting contacts of military families of the areas we were moving to and then spending lots of time calling people and getting inside info that way. Those families would put her in touch with other families and so forth. But she’s a people person and loves to talk to people haha.
Word of mouth is also hard because of all of the coded language used around school quality. There aren’t as many military families that share our values about schools.
Yep. I asked recently and someone told me to just look at the % of free and reduced lunch recipients and to make sure it was really low. I rolled my eyes and moved on - ffs Schools on POST have a large number of free and reduced qualified families. I always feel like I am just swimming blind when we move. My oldest is only in 1st grade and it's already so overwhelming to figure it out.
My parents were in the same situation when I was growing up. My dad in the military and my mom a teacher. Obviously this was before the internet was so prevalent. I have distinct memories of her getting contacts of military families of the areas we were moving to and then spending lots of time calling people and getting inside info that way. Those families would put her in touch with other families and so forth. But she’s a people person and loves to talk to people haha.
Word of mouth is also hard because of all of the coded language used around school quality. There aren’t as many military families that share our values about schools.
Ahh yes that’s true. My parents are both black so it was definitely known and voiced what our priorities are, even if I didn’t always end up at a school with a large diverse population. My parents made it work in a variety of ways by being clear to people what that were looking for. I assume you mean that’s harder to navigate as a white person. Clearly I don’t have experience with that but can understand it might be challenging for some. Glad you’re at a good school now.
Thanks for the link. I feel like every damn day I'm on my local mom group on Facebook telling Becky that yes, segregation does exist in our district and that no, Great Schools is not an unbiased source for how good a school is. I'll be adding this link to the reading I suggest in such posts.
Yes. We need to keep doing this. For almost a decade now, I feel like I've been letting people know this same thing. And I had to learn it when I had a 3-4 yr old and was looking at shcools. It sucks. And yet, each new parent group/mom-group talks "safety" in code words for keeping their kids away from lower income, diverse schools, and can't think past doing what is "right for my own child" instead of what is right for the community. And Great Schools has their part in this for sure. Who benefits from these ratings online? Mostly white, less diverse, affluent schools. Ugh.
Even in our mostly white town, we have one school with 50% low income and only 83% white that is rated 5/10 compared to the other middle school that is 8/10 with <30% low income and 91% white. Just a few percentage points and the ratings drop, and then more affluent, white parents want their kids in the super-crowded 8/10 white school while the 5/10 school is losing more affluent kids and is not full, but also isn't getting the same funding since the $$ are based on # enrolled. The ratings are biased against lower income, less white schools - as it the public school system in our country.
Word of mouth is also hard because of all of the coded language used around school quality. There aren’t as many military families that share our values about schools.
Ahh yes that’s true. My parents are both black so it was definitely known and voiced what our priorities are, even if I didn’t always end up at a school with a large diverse population. My parents made it work in a variety of ways by being clear to people what that were looking for. I assume you mean that’s harder to navigate as a white person. Clearly I don’t have experience with that but can understand it might be challenging for some. Glad you’re at a good school now.
Yes, a lot of white people still use “good” as code for “white.” When they say “good” schools” or “good” neighborhoods, they mean white ones. So when someone says a school is “good”, we have to figure out if they mean it’s ACTUALLY a place we want my husband to work and our son to learn.
I don’t mean to compare that to the challenges your family went through trying to find schools for you when you were young. I imagine this process is much more challenging for people of color.
Is great schools based on anything other than test scores? (Which I realize would frequently over value schools in affluent areas, but I’m still wondering)
They strongly use test scores - broken down into ratings based on if lower income students are routinely scoring lower than affluent students, if non-white groups are scoring lower than white groups, etc. But they also try to get stats on how many disciplinary actions the school had (suspensions and such for students) and who was getting those. How disabled students are disciplined or scoring. It's very random. I'm not sure how they get the disciplinary numbers and such, but I'm sure it's reported to the state OPIs (Instructional Offices, etc.).
They did that after they were just using test scores and reviews in the past - added all those other metrics. But it's still biased. Somewhat with the ratings process and also because our public schools do discipline non-white, lower income students more and by the the time they get to middle and high school, many of the lower income, non-white students are behind others b/c they didn't start out ahead. It's frustrating and indicative of where we need to make early childhood and elementary educational changes to start (and also not perpetuate issues in middle/high school). I wish I worked in this field and knew more to help.
I've been on GBCN long enough to know that Great School scores are shit. But this year is our first experience with public school, so the article is interesting to read combined with recent personal experience.
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DS' school is rated a 2, according to Great Schools. They're a Title 1 school, 42% white, 36% hispanic, 8% black. 76% low income students. Our neighbors and family were horrified that we sent him to our neighborhood school vs. the Catholic school my parents sent me to (and mom still teaches at). Our other alternative is a charter school.
DS entered K this fall. It's been a difficult transition at times, more due to his personality and challenges with trialing new ADHD meds, etc. The school has been amazing. His teacher is so patient, thoughtful, and super open to trying new strategies to get him to be as successful as possible. She lets him take sensory breaks in the OT room attached to her class. He has a lunch group he meets with weekly, headed by a social worker, to help him meet behavior/social expectations at school. We've dealt with the nurse and principal more in the past few months than others do in the course of a regular school year.
Essentially, it seems like the staff there have seen it all and are perhaps more accommodating and ready to take on challenges. They seem to be understanding to kids that are outside the box learners. I feel like the staff is scrappy (in the best way possible) meaning they're ready and willing to do whatever to get their kids to be successful, even though they don't have all the resources at their fingertips. They make do and do it well. As compared to the Catholic school that is less concerned with success, and more concerned that the parents pay the $$$ tuition. Or would just flunk or kick out kids that are struggling.
An example - The school has pretty much zero budget for extras. They put on the most amazing family dance, with just the principal playing music on her laptop, hooked up to speakers. Photo props from the teachers classrooms. Everyone brought their own snacks & drinks. They realize that getting the community together & families participating at school, is more important than a perfect pinterest worthy family dance.
Post by secretlyevil on Dec 6, 2019 13:54:49 GMT -5
Having H in the data science game has been very helpful, he has mentioned how some of the ways various industries are using data should be criminal and this article showcases one of those ways he was referencing.
Post by sillygoosegirl on Dec 6, 2019 13:58:30 GMT -5
Much to my surprise, the 2017 changes didn't seem to improve the rating of our neighborhood school, which is 82% low income, 80% non-white, and 69% English language learners, and has a 7/10 student progress score, but a 4/10 overall.
It gets a 3 for race/ethnicity and a 4 for poverty, but those areas seem to only look at proficiency scores, not progress. It doesn't take into account the high number of English language learners in any way, nor even mention that they exist. The achievement gap is significantly higher in English than the statewide average, but lower in math and science, which really makes me think that even the scores supposedly meant to look at and reward school that do a good job with equity measures, are really just further penalizing our school for having a lot of students who are still learning English.
My parents were in the same situation when I was growing up. My dad in the military and my mom a teacher. Obviously this was before the internet was so prevalent. I have distinct memories of her getting contacts of military families of the areas we were moving to and then spending lots of time calling people and getting inside info that way. Those families would put her in touch with other families and so forth. But she’s a people person and loves to talk to people haha.
Word of mouth is also hard because of all of the coded language used around school quality. There aren’t as many military families that share our values about schools.
There's an elementary school in my district that parents have actually recommended in a local mom's group because it's one of the smallest ones and it "doesn't have any apartments" like that's a good thing. I find that gross, especially because my son attends a similarly sized school without zoned apartments too but we're more proud of our diversity and close knit school community than keeping the poors out.
Similar to some others, we love our title 1 2/3 non white school. We have more resources than some of the "better" schools because we are title 1. So that's a thing.
Our county as a whole though...welp...Google for maryland schools redistricting and you can read all about it.
I live in one of the more "affordable" suburbs of Boston, which really isn't all that affordable. People were horrified when we moved here. Our great schools rating is a 3 I think. We are on our second year of speech therapy through the school district, and I am so damn happy we live here.
Last week, I was waiting in the front office for C to finish up speech. A boy came in with his grandfather - maybe 2nd or 3rd grade. He got as far as the front office and refused to go any further. He just didn't want to go to school. He was quiet about it, but insistent. The school secretary got right up from her desk and sat with him. She sent the grandfather on his way and tried to talk to the kid. He just kept saying "I don't want to go." She asked him if anyone was bullying him in school, if he felt safe, etc. After a few minutes the principal walked in. She sat right down next to the kid. She knew his name, she knew who his friends were, she knew his hobbies. They talked for a few minutes and I heard her say "What can I do to make your day better?" Finally he said that he didn't want to go to gym because they were playing basketball and he's short. Without missing a beat, the principal said "Done. During gym you can come sit in here with me and we will talk. You are here to learn. If you don't want to play basketball, you don't have to." Then she gave him a hug and walked him to class.
It is so much more important to me that my kid be in a school with people who know her and care about her. That's the kind of thing test scores can't tell you.
Further exacerbating the problem, Redfin uses Greatschhools data to plug house buyers into certain neighborhoods. It’s a double whammy: stacking the deck in favor of white families in terms of education and housing.
Further exacerbating the problem, Redfin uses Greatschhools data to plug house buyers into certain neighborhoods. It’s a double whammy: stacking the deck in favor of white families in terms of education and housing.
I'm so happy this was written and really like the 5 minute video too.
I'm a school counselor and military spouse and I try SO HARD to get people to stop using Greatschools as their only data point when choosing schools. Probably 3-4x per week on different military FB pages I'll put my 2 cents in about making sure you are researching schools that have things YOU value for YOUR kid. Not just regurgitated test scores. I agree that there is so much coded language to "good" schools. "Good" definitely means white and wealthy. The fact that Greatschools is now connected to another organization with inaccurate data analysis (Zillow) doesn't surprise me.
I am glad they are focusing more on growth scores because I do think that is the best way to show teaching quality. Unfortunately, growth still can't control for things like hunger or sleep deprivation or any of the other major issues facing some kids today. Kids who are hungry aren't growing academically, KWIM?
School quality is very complicated and it is a very individualized choice. My kids are currently at a "9" rated school but I am not thrilled with it. I much preferred the "6" school we just left in Colorado.