Teen Spanish-speakers push for gender-neutral language

[goldengirlz]

I love this and have also wondered about languages that assign genders to nouns.

www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2019/12/05/teens-argentina-are-leading-charge-gender-neutral-language/?arc404=true

In Spanish, a language in which all nouns are assigned a gender, the word for soldiers is masculine: “Los soldados de Perón.”

The lyrics Mira sang were different: “Les soldades.”

To most Spanish speakers, the “e” in both words would sound jarring — and grammatically incorrect.

But here, teenagers are rewriting the rules of the language to eliminate gender. In classrooms and daily conversations, young people are changing the way they speak and write — replacing the masculine “o” or the feminine “a” with the gender-neutral “e” in certain words — in order to change what they see as a deeply gendered culture.

[seeyalater52]

I think it's great that this is getting attention. There was an article recently (I'll see if I can find it) that claimed that the issue of gender neutral language in Spanish was being pushed by non-Spanish speaking and bilingual folks in the US - I am not a Spanish speaker, but that didn't square with my experience working with folks who are active in this movement at all. I appreciate seeing multiple perspectives represented since the issue of language colonization is very real and present and important to consider, but this topic is really nuanced and deserves full consideration, especially in light of the way it impacts Spanish-speaking people who are themselves nonbinary.

[heat40]

I’d have to read the article later. But if anecdotal evidence is worth anything, my cousins and brothers who live in Colombia ( and my brother who lived in Argentina for a few years), don’t really know much about this gender neutral verbiage issue. I’ve asked them before about the whole Latinx thing and they don’t get it.

[heat40]

Dec 6, 2019 15:19:20 GMT -5 seeyalater52 said:

I think it's great that this is getting attention. There was an article recently (I'll see if I can find it) that claimed that the issue of gender neutral language in Spanish was being pushed by non-Spanish speaking and bilingual folks in the US - I am not a Spanish speaker, but that didn't square with my experience working with folks who are active in this movement at all. I appreciate seeing multiple perspectives represented since the issue of language colonization is very real and present and important to consider, but this topic is really nuanced and deserves full consideration, especially in light of the way it impacts Spanish-speaking people who are themselves nonbinary.

Yes. My experience has been it’s a push from people here mostly. Which makes me have complicated opinions on this.

[seeyalater52]

Dec 6, 2019 15:23:11 GMT -5 heat40 said:

Dec 6, 2019 15:19:20 GMT -5 seeyalater52 said:

I think it's great that this is getting attention. There was an article recently (I'll see if I can find it) that claimed that the issue of gender neutral language in Spanish was being pushed by non-Spanish speaking and bilingual folks in the US - I am not a Spanish speaker, but that didn't square with my experience working with folks who are active in this movement at all. I appreciate seeing multiple perspectives represented since the issue of language colonization is very real and present and important to consider, but this topic is really nuanced and deserves full consideration, especially in light of the way it impacts Spanish-speaking people who are themselves nonbinary.

Yes. My experience has been it’s a push from people here mostly. Which makes me have complicated opinions on this.

Interesting. I definitely see it being pushed much more by young queer Spanish-speaking immigrants (not born in the US but that could be a result of my sample more than an overall trend) than anyone else. 

[goldengirlz]

I barely speak any Spanish but I do speak Hebrew, which genders nouns in the same way.

I don’t know whether it’s been a top-of-mind conversation in Israel yet but it’s such a patriarchal culture that I do wonder about the attitudes of progressive Israeli/Jewish youth.

Thanks for adding a nuanced perspective on this. It makes sense that each language (and each country that speaks the language) will have its own story and path forward on this issue.

[seeyalater52]

Also to be fair the culture around nonbinary and transgender identities varies WIDELY between Spanish-speaking countries and even within the US or between the US and other countries. In my experience these things (identity related and the push for more neutral Spanish language options) are linked somewhat so I can see how takeup would be really uneven and different in different localities. 

[cattledogkisses]

I've wondered this too about languages where nouns are gendered. I know this is the case with Romance languages, and it's the same with Slavic languages as well.

For example, in English the word "spouse" is a gender-neutral substitute for husband/wife, but in Serbo-Croatian the word for spouse is still gendered depending on whether you're referring to a male spouse (suprug) or a female spouse (supruga).

It'll be interesting to see how these languages evolve as gender-neutral language becomes more prominent.

[rebneen]

I know that there is a push to eliminate gendered language in Hebrew from an international youth movement (HaBonim Dror). Hebrew doesn’t have the geographical variants or dialect that Spanish, French, and other European languages that were brought to former colonies, so I think change can be easier to adopt on a larger scale. It’s a fascinating topic and an important one.

[goldengirlz]

Dec 6, 2019 15:30:03 GMT -5 rebneen said:

I know that there is a push to eliminate gendered language in Hebrew from an international youth movement (HaBonim Dror). Hebrew doesn’t have the geographical variants or dialect that Spanish, French, and other European languages that were brought to former colonies, so I think change can be easier to adopt on a larger scale. It’s a fascinating topic and an important one.

It doesn’t, but the diaspora adds another level of nuance there. American Jews are very different from Israelis.

[heat40]

It’s complicated for sure. Spanish isn’t the only language with gendered words. But also just as we have words that are masculine which I know some are trying to change, there are also feminine words for example police is ‘la policía’, family is ‘la familia’, politics is ‘la política’, and on and on. So, I guess my question is how far into the language are people proposing the change?

Obviously I’m always open to keep reading more about the movement.

[wanderingback]

Dec 6, 2019 15:37:00 GMT -5 heat40 said:

It’s complicated for sure. Spanish isn’t the only language with gendered words. But also just as we have words that are masculine which I know some are trying to change, there are also feminine words for example police is ‘la policía’, family is ‘la familia’, politics is ‘la política’, and on and on. So, I guess my question is how far into the language are people proposing the change?

Obviously I’m always open to keep reading more about the movement.

Do you have access to read the article?
It goes in to that in the article. For the gendered words it’s essentially replaced with an e and that’s what people want and how they’ve been communicating.

OP, thanks for sharing this article!
I think like the quote in the article says that official Spanish grammar likely won’t change, but it’s encouraging that some universities have accepted this change for school work and that people are passionate about this.

[heat40]

Dec 6, 2019 15:52:45 GMT -5 wanderingback said:

Dec 6, 2019 15:37:00 GMT -5 heat40 said:

It’s complicated for sure. Spanish isn’t the only language with gendered words. But also just as we have words that are masculine which I know some are trying to change, there are also feminine words for example police is ‘la policía’, family is ‘la familia’, politics is ‘la política’, and on and on. So, I guess my question is how far into the language are people proposing the change?

Obviously I’m always open to keep reading more about the movement.

Do you have access to read the article?
It goes in to that in the article. For the gendered words it’s essentially replaced with an e and that’s what people want and how they’ve been communicating.

OP, thanks for sharing this article!
I think like the quote in the article says that official Spanish grammar likely won’t change, but it’s encouraging that some universities have accepted this change for school work and that people are passionate about this.

i had to wait until i was on my laptop. Which I've now been able to do.

[rupertpenny]

I saw an article in Vox recently that brought up the possibility of using e to make words gender neutral and as an alternative to latinx which doesn't fit well into Spanish grammar. As someone with zero stakes in the discussion it seems like an interesting solution.


www.vox.com/the-highlight/2019/10/15/20914347/latin-latina-latino-latinx-means

[lilles]

As a native Spanish speaker seeing “les” immediately switches my mind to French which I also speak. I would say that switching to an “e” is far less grating to me than the Latinx thing which no one I know uses and I’ve only seen in articles. It’s natural for language to evolve but I think it will take a while to see if any of these changes stick as Spanish is spoken in many countries and we all have variations on what we use

[gibbinator]

I've wondered about this with French a lot lately. As a translator I'm frequently "neutralizing" language when converting it into English. A non-specified person is always referred to with "il" , "lui" , or "son", (which are masculin pronouns) in pretty well in every scenario.

Many French authors of such texts (particularly HR documents) will write a caveat at the start of the text that masculin pronouns should be understood as including the féminin and were used for the sake of brevity, but that's still not a great practice. I'm really curious how in the coming years the romance languages will change. It would be very difficult to completely neutralize a grammar that is so fundamentally based on gender. But I suppose it's mainly human-related nouns that would need to get with the times.

On a side note, I just want to rant that a lot of inexperienced English translators will get caught up in masculin pronouns and use "he", "him" and "his" when they translate these, which is so time consuming to correct into they/them/their. That and wild comma use are my main work pet peeves.

[heyjude]

www.google.com/amp/s/www.vox.com/platform/amp/the-highlight/2019/10/15/20914347/latin-latina-latino-latinx-means

I really enjoyed this explainer comic on this topic.

[heat40]

Here’s my issue with the Latinx.

It is just not part of the language in anyway. Not in the written form and most especially not when speaking. it irritates me that most of those who are pushing it, are not native speakers and mostly American. It feels very, “i know what’s best for you”.

I know I carry a chip on my shoulder from years and years of society criticizing speaking Spanish in general. So to then have others decide to change your language without even considering something like how it is spoken, makes me even more annoyed.

Being gender inclusive is very important. Of that i absolutely agree. I just think there needs to be an acknowledgement of the nuances in things like language.

[heyjude]

Another good read about the problems with “Latinx”

swarthmorephoenix.com/2015/11/19/the-argument-against-the-use-of-the-term-latinx/

[heyjude]

Dec 6, 2019 17:44:06 GMT -5 rupertpenny said:

I saw an article in Vox recently that brought up the possibility of using e to make words gender neutral and as an alternative to latinx which doesn't fit well into Spanish grammar. As someone with zero stakes in the discussion it seems like an interesting solution.


www.vox.com/the-highlight/2019/10/15/20914347/latin-latina-latino-latinx-means

Oh man I posted the same article too and missed yours. So sorry. I agree. I enjoyed this. And thanks for sharing, first!!

[SusanBAnthony]

Dec 7, 2019 10:49:01 GMT -5 heyjude said:

Dec 7, 2019 10:27:22 GMT -5 heyjude said:

I don’t know what I think of a white woman living in Mexico trying to change the language....

ETA: the more I think about this the angrier I feel about it. What gives your sister the right to go into another nation and make people mad but “push boundaries anyway” when it comes to their language?!

I typed some stuff but deleted it. I don't need to air my sister's laundry.

I hear you.

[cville]

The comic (and the articles linked below it) was very helpful. I hadn't realized Latinx was primarily (only?) used in the US. The imperial/colonizer implications of that are obviously important to be thinking about.

[wanderingback]

Dec 7, 2019 10:40:04 GMT -5 heat40 said:

Here’s my issue with the Latinx.

It is just not part of the language in anyway. Not in the written form and most especially not when speaking. it irritates me that most of those who are pushing it, are not native speakers and mostly American. It feels very, “i know what’s best for you”.

I know I carry a chip on my shoulder from years and years of society criticizing speaking Spanish in general. So to then have others decide to change your language without even considering something like how it is spoken, makes me even more annoyed.

Being gender inclusive is very important. Of that i absolutely agree. I just think there needs to be an acknowledgement of the nuances in things like language.

I read most of the comments in the article posted above and it was definitely very interesting that people have differing opinions. It's interesting to talk with people who are from the US, but speak spanish at home vs people who were born in/live in spanish speaking countries currently. 

I know it's not the same, but within the reproductive justice framework there has been discussion about language. More and more people are using inclusive language such as "people of color" and "people who can get pregnant" instead of using "black" or "women." But in some ways the pendulum has swung so far that way that now we're "forgetting" about black women, which really is the "proper" term to use especially when discussing reproductive justice. But not everyone within the movement agrees with what is "correct." 

Language and terminology are forever changing for better or for worse. 

[wanderingback]

Dec 7, 2019 18:51:00 GMT -5 cville said:

The comic (and the articles linked below it) was very helpful. I hadn't realized Latinx was primarily (only?) used in the US. The imperial/colonizer implications of that are obviously important to be thinking about.

I certainly knew it was an american word, but I thought its origins started with americans with ancestry from spanish-speaking countries/spoke spanish, not just some becky off the street. I guess the true origins aren't really clear? I completely understand the controversy, I find language so fascinating in general with people's differing opinions as things change. 

[johncandy]

Dec 7, 2019 20:33:35 GMT -5 wanderingback said:

I know it's not the same, but within the reproductive justice framework there has been discussion about language. More and more people are using inclusive language such as "people of color" and "people who can get pregnant" instead of using "black" or "women."

This really pisses me off. Reproductive justice is a women's issue.

[Patsy Baloney]

johncandy, do you see the label of "women's issue" as one that also encompasses people who are not/do not identify as women? For me, women's issue is not broad enough to encompass the many people who do not fall into the traditional category of "woman". People who can get pregnant appears to be much more inclusive of all those who can get pregnant, whether that person identifies as "woman" or not.

[pixy0stix]

Dec 12, 2019 16:50:36 GMT -5 johncandy said:

Dec 7, 2019 20:33:35 GMT -5 wanderingback said:

I know it's not the same, but within the reproductive justice framework there has been discussion about language. More and more people are using inclusive language such as "people of color" and "people who can get pregnant" instead of using "black" or "women."

This really pisses me off. Reproductive justice is a women's issue.

Except for the gendered men who can become pregnant. 

[johncandy]

Dec 12, 2019 17:03:53 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Dec 12, 2019 16:50:36 GMT -5 johncandy said:

This really pisses me off. Reproductive justice is a women's issue.

Except for the gendered men who can become pregnant. 

No. It's a women's issue. It's a fight because it's about controlling women.

Chambliss, responding to the IVF argument from Smitherman, cites a part of the bill that says it applies to a pregnant woman. "The egg in the lab doesn’t apply. It’s not in a woman. She’s not pregnant." #alpolitics

[Patsy Baloney]

So you're just willfully ignoring those who are not identifying as women and can get pregnant?

okeydokey. 

[seeyalater52]

Yup no one trying to control trans and non binary people and their bodies. Only women. Nothing to see here. 🙄

Both/and is a thing.