Debate - Severe weather/personal vs venue responsibility

[pixy0stix]

Scenario - last night a concert at Red Rocks was hit with golf ball to tennis ball sized hail. Over 100 people were injured, 7 of them were hospitalized. (Story - www.9news.com/article/weather/severe-weather/major-hailstorm-red-rocks/73-7c624b6c-ab21-48ed-abc5-8d39d2af4106 )

A couple of things - the severe weather warnings went out around noon yesterday. I kept getting alerts with timing, that there *would absolutely* be hail associated with these storms, etc. In addition to that, I don't remember a storm since early spring that hasn't had hail involved somewhere along it's path, and we've been getting these storms daily. The weather system yesterday was well forecast and fairly predictable.

Now here is where the debate comes in: There is a local facebook weather guy who posted today that some personal responsibility should have been taken when it came to the concert goers. He contends that the concert goers should have at least 1) known that the storm was coming, and 2) been keeping half an eye on a weather ap/radar to move themselves out of harms way. People are taking umbrage at that statement saying it was the responsibility of the venue to watch the weather and delay or cancel the concert to avoid patron harm.

What do you say?

[pixy0stix]

My stance, in looking at how ALL the forecasts were saying it was going to get gnarly, is that I would have taken a loss on my ticket and kept my ass home.

[erbear]

I think you’re right, and I don’t know if I would have skipped it. The way I see it, it is the responsibility of the venue to keep people safe. I would assume that if the venue didn’t cancel or postpone, they must have reason to think they could keep people safe. They should have canceled the concert and not put people in a position to lose their money if the concert happened (I assume it didn’t).

That said, I agree that people have to take some personal responsibility. Once they were there and could see the weather developing (or before they arrived by checking an app), they should have taken shelter in a car or stayed home. I would not have stayed at the arena with the weather on the way like that.

[chilerellanos]

My daughter did take a loss on the ticket and skipped it.

But also, I do think that red rocks also bears some responsibility to cancel knowing there’s no shelter, and that there was such advance knowledge of the storm.

I saw the videos and it looked terrible.

[krystee]

I place more responsibility on the venue. Concert tickets are a significant expense for many people. If the venue moves forward and you don’t get a refund or a rescheduled date, I can see why people would go. There should be an expectation for the venue to only carry through with the event if they felt they could keep everyone safe.

[rubytue]

We had something like this last year at the festival venue near me. The pavilion was flooding, there is a video out there of squirrels trying to jump on amps and people in water up to their knees in the pit. And crowds because the lawn piled into the pavilion. I want to say we were under a tornado warning at show time, and it was known to be coming. Artist refused to perform and people got money back.

I’m team venue should cancel. Sure, there is some thought that goes through your head (I’m questionable for the cure this weekend because it’s supposed to rain, not even storm, I just don’t want to be miserable). But also, I’m in the financial position where canceling doesn’t make me feel I wasted money. I can totally get that people who pay hundreds for good seats to see a dream artist would not be there.

And at red rocks? Lordy, that is a bucket list venue. I occasionally look and think about flying out for a show. If I flew out there, got a hotel, and all that, it would be really hard to not. And I come from a place where I’ve never seen golf ball sized hail, so it wouldn’t occur to me that there was an injury risk greater than misery.

[mrspez07]

I don’t live very far from here. The severe weather watch was until 8 initially and the models were showing hail more likely east of I-25. I was watching radar so I could get my brand new car home and in the garage from work and left around 4 because of green on the radar expected in the 4pm hour. We didn’t get a drop of moisture until after 9 last night. Lightning and thunder? Yes, well before that, but they didn’t extend that severe storm warning until most people would have been there and close to the 8pm expiration and some assumption the storms had moved thru. The severe weather hit well after 9. I also don’t expect the average person to continue to check the detailed localized radar and forecasts once they’re at the venue. Once RR allowed people in, it becomes their responsibility to keep people safe; from weather, crowd surfing, mobs, whatever.

I expect rain and lightning at red rocks but rarely hail because of its location in the foothills. We were there the last 2 Monday nights, the first with rainy weather anticipated and the other with clear skies. Always good to bring a rain poncho there this time of year. I had a FB friend there that was ok (car is not), they made it to a bathroom before hail.

Also, in typical crazy Colorado weather, we did not get hail in any of the storm rounds last night but RR and the neighborhoods further west did (green Mtn area for those familiar). Hail is so localized and unpredictable.

[penguingrrl]

I definitely think the venue has some responsibility in this instance. When I was working it was at a museum that was outdoors and we often hosted big events (craft shows, flea markets, music festivals, etc) and we were reasonably quick to cancel if the weather looked bad because we didn’t want to risk the liability that came with staying open knowing people would show up.

[wawa]

I think going forward with an event you knew was going to be unsafe is irresponsible even if people ALSO should have just planned to stay home. Like...I don't know how red rocks is set up, were the performers safe? vendors? their own site employees?

But ultimately (in my mind, if not the law) it's everybody's own responsibility to literally come in out of the rain. Unless we're talking about a situation where they didn't have appropriate egress paths and people were trapped in the open while trying to seek shelter in a timely fashion, I think everybody can share some responsibility.

side note: How the heck do you guys get anything done if you're getting hailed on all the time this time of year though? The sky just throws chunks of ice at you and you're like, "omg, isn't it great here! let's go be outdoorsy!"

[mrspez07]

I’m guessing, in part because of Red Rocks’s packed schedule these days (events every day) they hesitate to cancel because there isn’t room to reschedule. Going forward, I’m guessing they’ll be more cautious and cancel.
LOL wawa

ETA: I got the warning about the storm hitting my house at 9:21 until 10, probably because it was hitting red rocks at/before that point and moving towards my location. Looks like NWS tweeted about it at 9:26
Red rocks tweeted an initial delay at 8:07, then the all clear at 8:35 and then to seek shelter at 9:14.

[wildrice]

Jun 22, 2023 14:47:39 GMT -5 rubytue said:

We had something like this last year at the festival venue near me. The pavilion was flooding, there is a video out there of squirrels trying to jump on amps and people in water up to their knees in the pit. And crowds because the lawn piled into the pavilion. I want to say we were under a tornado warning at show time, and it was known to be coming. Artist refused to perform and people got money back.

I’m team venue should cancel. Sure, there is some thought that goes through your head (I’m questionable for the cure this weekend because it’s supposed to rain, not even storm, I just don’t want to be miserable). But also, I’m in the financial position where canceling doesn’t make me feel I wasted money. I can totally get that people who pay hundreds for good seats to see a dream artist would not be there.

And at red rocks? Lordy, that is a bucket list venue. I occasionally look and think about flying out for a show. If I flew out there, got a hotel, and all that, it would be really hard to not. And I come from a place where I’ve never seen golf ball sized hail, so it wouldn’t occur to me that there was an injury risk greater than misery.

Basically all this, except I'm supposed to see Ed Sheeran on Saturday and probably won't skip the concert if it happens because a) I want to see him and b) the tickets cost more than I want to just flush down the toilet. But I also would expect the venue to cancel if holding the concert puts people in danger. It wouldn't really occur to me that they wouldn't if the situation was actually dangerous.

When we are talking about being responsible, are the people who were injured asking the venue to pay for their medical care? Or just moral responsibility? I think generally a venue would be responsible for any injuries that occur on their property anyway - right? 

[sent]

I would put this on the venue. I've also never seen golf ball sized hail so whenever I hear about them, I think they're exaggerating. I probably would've gone to an expensive concert if I had traveled to it. Coincidentally, I was looking at concert tickets last night for an outdoor venue but figured that if it rained, we would still be ok since we would be in the covered portion.

[VillainV]

Jun 22, 2023 14:25:44 GMT -5 erbear said:

I think you’re right, and I don’t know if I would have skipped it. The way I see it, it is the responsibility of the venue to keep people safe. I would assume that if the venue didn’t cancel or postpone, they must have reason to think they could keep people safe. They should have canceled the concert and not put people in a position to lose their money if the concert happened (I assume it didn’t).

That said, I agree that people have to take some personal responsibility. Once they were there and could see the weather developing (or before they arrived by checking an app), they should have taken shelter in a car or stayed home. I would not have stayed at the arena with the weather on the way like that.

Cars aren’t great shelter in golf ball-sized hail. The windows would get smashed out pretty quickly. I mean, it’s better than being out in the open, but only marginally.

I think in this case the venue had some responsibility to either cancel the event or to be able to keep people safe.

[Vespasia]

I am generally not in favor of taking responsibility away from companies and putting it on consumers. Particularly if it was something foreseeable. 

I think Red Rocks is a little different too as I expect it would have a higher tourist to local ratio than most music venues. It's one of the few places I have consistently heard of people traveling to to attend a show. Locals are going to me a lot more familiar with the weather patterns while visitors are going to trust the venue.  

[tamarindy]

Having been to RR several times (going for this weekend’s run!), I can say that you need to be ready for everything up there and most of us are. I have been through the gnarliest of rain, cold, and scorching heat.

That said, if the venue is aware of an incoming storm that can produce hail or other catastrophic weather events, I think that’s on them.

[wanderingback]

I ultimately think it's the venue's responsibility.
What if you were traveling all day, just arrived and didn't know about the many hours of weather warnings?
What if you're a tourist and don't know the exact set up of red rocks? I certainly don't.

Did people get injured trying to leave as the show was canceled? Is there any indoor area for safety?

[wawa]

Jun 22, 2023 15:04:18 GMT -5 wildrice said:

Jun 22, 2023 14:47:39 GMT -5 rubytue said:

We had something like this last year at the festival venue near me. The pavilion was flooding, there is a video out there of squirrels trying to jump on amps and people in water up to their knees in the pit. And crowds because the lawn piled into the pavilion. I want to say we were under a tornado warning at show time, and it was known to be coming. Artist refused to perform and people got money back.

I’m team venue should cancel. Sure, there is some thought that goes through your head (I’m questionable for the cure this weekend because it’s supposed to rain, not even storm, I just don’t want to be miserable). But also, I’m in the financial position where canceling doesn’t make me feel I wasted money. I can totally get that people who pay hundreds for good seats to see a dream artist would not be there.

And at red rocks? Lordy, that is a bucket list venue. I occasionally look and think about flying out for a show. If I flew out there, got a hotel, and all that, it would be really hard to not. And I come from a place where I’ve never seen golf ball sized hail, so it wouldn’t occur to me that there was an injury risk greater than misery.

Basically all this, except I'm supposed to see Ed Sheeran on Saturday and probably won't skip the concert if it happens because a) I want to see him and b) the tickets cost more than I want to just flush down the toilet. But I also would expect the venue to cancel if holding the concert puts people in danger. It wouldn't really occur to me that they wouldn't if the situation was actually dangerous.

When we are talking about being responsible, are the people who were injured asking the venue to pay for their medical care? Or just moral responsibility? I think generally a venue would be responsible for any injuries that occur on their property anyway - right? 

I think as an attendee the math on bad weather at our local venue is very different from red rocks.  At red rocks there's nowhere to shelter except your own car and the bathrooms looks like.  At ours you run away and you're in any one of a dozen office or apartment buildings, parking garages and restaurants, including an entire MALL 500 meters away.  (and other stuff closer) You can bail there very easily if it's miserable and there's enough room for everybody to fully take shelter reasonably nearby in an actual emergency.  

[tamarindy]

Jun 22, 2023 15:16:53 GMT -5 wanderingback said:

I ultimately think it's the venue's responsibility.
What if you were traveling all day, just arrived and didn't know about the many hours of weather warnings?
What if you're a tourist and don't know the exact set up of red rocks? I certainly don't.

Did people get injured trying to leave as the show was canceled? Is there any indoor area for safety?

There is indoor space but if you’re near the front and/or middle portion when hail starts, you won’t make it back in time I’d assume.

[goldengirlz]

I mean, it’s both. I think of the venue sort of as the “adult in the room” — many concertgoers are young and it sounds like a lot are tourists … they’re not necessarily the most responsible or experienced. The venue also holds the cards financially.

But personal responsibility does come into play too. I think about the people who still attempted to vacation in Tahoe when wildfires were raging. Like come on. Sometimes you gotta take the loss even if the venue won’t.

[wanderingback]

Jun 22, 2023 15:22:08 GMT -5 goldengirlz said:

I mean, it’s both. I think of the venue sort of as the “adult in the room” — many concertgoers are young and it sounds like a lot are tourists … they’re not necessarily the most responsible or experienced. The venue also holds the cards financially.

But personal responsibility does come into play too. I think about the people who still attempted to vacation in Tahoe when wildfires were raging. Like come on. Sometimes you gotta take the loss even if the venue won’t.

Was it hailing before the show started?

I don't think this is comparable to going somewhere that is having current known wildfires.
I presumed the storm moved in while the show was happening?

I ultimately assume the venue didn't want to cancel because they don't want to be out money. 

[goldengirlz]

Jun 22, 2023 15:28:26 GMT -5 wanderingback said:

Jun 22, 2023 15:22:08 GMT -5 goldengirlz said:

I mean, it’s both. I think of the venue sort of as the “adult in the room” — many concertgoers are young and it sounds like a lot are tourists … they’re not necessarily the most responsible or experienced. The venue also holds the cards financially.

But personal responsibility does come into play too. I think about the people who still attempted to vacation in Tahoe when wildfires were raging. Like come on. Sometimes you gotta take the loss even if the venue won’t.

Was it hailing before the show started?

I don't think this is comparable to going somewhere that is having current known wildfires.
I presumed the storm moved in while the show was happening?

I ultimately assume the venue didn't want to cancel because they don't want to be out money. 

Severe thunderstorms of this magnitude are often foreseeable. Like when we had tornado watches (back when we lived in another state), we typically knew hours in advance. But once the sirens were blaring, you pretty much had to hunker down where you were.

ETA: These things aren’t like dinky East Coast thunderstorms.

[wawa]

I do want to differentiate between like, "I will roll my eyes at you for being irresponsible" and "I think you should pay people's medical bills" level of responsible.

The idea that anybody would absolve a company for holding an unsafe event because people should have known better to go to the event is silly. The venue holds the most cards and the most information about how safe their own venue is in a given circumstance. We're not talking about a matter of skill or personal health or anything where people have to make their own risk assessments. Giant hail is giant hail. But I still would say there can be some shared responsibility in that somebody who went to something knowing full well what they were getting into (which the locals should know, others might not) deserve an exasperated parental glare at least.

[mrspez07]

Annndd…
Got a notice at 2:16 same as last night. Started hailing small bits at 2:35

[wanderingback]

Jun 22, 2023 15:31:59 GMT -5 goldengirlz said:

Jun 22, 2023 15:28:26 GMT -5 wanderingback said:

Was it hailing before the show started?

I don't think this is comparable to going somewhere that is having current known wildfires.
I presumed the storm moved in while the show was happening?

I ultimately assume the venue didn't want to cancel because they don't want to be out money. 

Severe thunderstorms are often foreseeable. Like when we had tornado warnings (back when we lived in another state), we typically knew hours in advance. Once the sirens were blaring, you pretty much had to hunker down where you were.

Now I'm confused, was this a tornado or a thunderstorm?
I don't typically recall in any state I've lived in getting sirens for thunderstorms and I've lived in a lot of different states. 

But regardless, yes I think it's the responsibility of the event space to ultimately do their best to ensure people's safety. I would presume a mostly outdoor venue would have some sort of plan for predicted severe weather. But of course I'm sure they do everything they can to not cancel and I'm sure there is some fine print on tickets that makes them not responsible. 

But to answer OPs question/the radio hosts questions I think it's more the venues responsibility because there are plenty of reasons why a patron might not realize what the threat level is and it's specific to that local area and venue. 

[wildrice]

Jun 22, 2023 15:17:13 GMT -5 wawa said:

Jun 22, 2023 15:04:18 GMT -5 wildrice said:

Basically all this, except I'm supposed to see Ed Sheeran on Saturday and probably won't skip the concert if it happens because a) I want to see him and b) the tickets cost more than I want to just flush down the toilet. But I also would expect the venue to cancel if holding the concert puts people in danger. It wouldn't really occur to me that they wouldn't if the situation was actually dangerous.

When we are talking about being responsible, are the people who were injured asking the venue to pay for their medical care? Or just moral responsibility? I think generally a venue would be responsible for any injuries that occur on their property anyway - right? 

I think as an attendee the math on bad weather at our local venue is very different from red rocks.  At red rocks there's nowhere to shelter except your own car and the bathrooms looks like.  At ours you run away and you're in any one of a dozen office or apartment buildings, parking garages and restaurants, including an entire MALL 500 meters away.  (and other stuff closer) You can bail there very easily if it's miserable and there's enough room for everybody to fully take shelter reasonably nearby in an actual emergency.  

True, though it takes a while to evacuate thousands of people and our local venue is pretty spread out, so it could take a good 10-20 minutes to get out and walk to shelter. In golf ball sized hail (which I think doesn't happen here?) I can imagine it would still be a big issue.

I am going to FedEx field on Saturday and have never been there before so IDK the situation if we needed to take shelter. And I honestly wouldn't at Red Rocks either so I think I would have trusted the venue (or at the very least, the performer) to make the right call. 

[goldengirlz]

Jun 22, 2023 15:38:24 GMT -5 wanderingback said:

Jun 22, 2023 15:31:59 GMT -5 goldengirlz said:

Severe thunderstorms are often foreseeable. Like when we had tornado warnings (back when we lived in another state), we typically knew hours in advance. Once the sirens were blaring, you pretty much had to hunker down where you were.

Now I'm confused, was this a tornado or a thunderstorm?
I don't typically recall in any state I've lived in getting sirens for thunderstorms and I've lived in a lot of different states. 

But regardless, yes I think it's the responsibility of the event space to ultimately do their best to ensure people's safety. I would presume a mostly outdoor venue would have some sort of plan for predicted severe weather. But of course I'm sure they do everything they can to not cancel and I'm sure there is some fine print on tickets that makes them not responsible. 

But to answer OPs question/the radio hosts questions I think it's more the venues responsibility because there are plenty of reasons why a patron might not realize what the threat level is and it's specific to that local area and venue. 

It sounds like it was a hailstorm. I just meant these are the kinds of thunderstorms that produce tornadoes in some parts of the country.

It’s a severe weather event, not at all like a wildfire of course, but foreseeable and all over the news.

[chilerellanos]

Jun 22, 2023 15:38:24 GMT -5 wanderingback said:

Jun 22, 2023 15:31:59 GMT -5 goldengirlz said:

Severe thunderstorms are often foreseeable. Like when we had tornado warnings (back when we lived in another state), we typically knew hours in advance. Once the sirens were blaring, you pretty much had to hunker down where you were.

Now I'm confused, was this a tornado or a thunderstorm?
I don't typically recall in any state I've lived in getting sirens for thunderstorms and I've lived in a lot of different states. 

But regardless, yes I think it's the responsibility of the event space to ultimately do their best to ensure people's safety. I would presume a mostly outdoor venue would have some sort of plan for predicted severe weather. But of course I'm sure they do everything they can to not cancel and I'm sure there is some fine print on tickets that makes them not responsible. 

But to answer OPs question/the radio hosts questions I think it's more the venues responsibility because there are plenty of reasons why a patron might not realize what the threat level is and it's specific to that local area and venue. 

I live in Nebraska, and the sirens will go off for tornado warnings, hail above a certain size, and winds above a certain speed.

[waverly]

If the venue cancels it’s a cleaner experience. They rebook the concert and transfer tickets over to the new date.

There is some personal responsibility also, but we’ve been caught in a tornado warning and didn’t know there would be a tornado. There was no expectation of tornadoes in the forecast. The venue had us all go inside until the warning passed.

Our hail tends to be smaller here so bearing that in mind I would have brought protective gear (umbrella and raincoat) but I don’t have experience with hail that big, so I don’t know if that would have been effective. And I guess that makes it more on the venue that they are local to that weather and the customer is not. Our biggest hail is more like the size of a small ball definitely not golf ball size.

[pixy0stix]

Jun 22, 2023 15:39:40 GMT -5 wildrice said:

And I honestly wouldn't at Red Rocks either so I think I would have trusted the venue (or at the very least, the performer) to make the right call. 

Oooh, third responsible party? The performer?

[wildrice]

Jun 22, 2023 15:38:24 GMT -5 wanderingback said:

Jun 22, 2023 15:31:59 GMT -5 goldengirlz said:

Severe thunderstorms are often foreseeable. Like when we had tornado warnings (back when we lived in another state), we typically knew hours in advance. Once the sirens were blaring, you pretty much had to hunker down where you were.

Now I'm confused, was this a tornado or a thunderstorm?
I don't typically recall in any state I've lived in getting sirens for thunderstorms and I've lived in a lot of different states. 

Sirens are normal in the midwest! I think Maryland is the first state I've lived in that does NOT have them (at least not that I've heard yet!). They went off many times every summer in the Midwestern states I lived in, though. And also, in places where you frequently get heavy storms/tornados/sirens, most people just go about their day and typical plans, anyway. Probably 90% of the time when there is a tornado watch, you never actually end up with a tornado.