Ethnic cleansing of Palestinians (@ mentions)

[pixy0stix]

I changed the title to reflect that we've been mentioning @'s throughout the thread without tagging. (not faulting anyone, just a bit of clean up)

[rikki]

The children of light/dark is extremely vile and disgusting. I am so sorry you had to read something so hateful from someone who should have sense and decency. I’m also so sorry you had to have such a tough conversation with your friends. I know that we do not agree on every aspect, but my heart hurts for you and the people of Gaza, the West Bank, and their families around the world.

[aurora]

The murder of hundreds of patients and refugees in/outside the hospital in Gaza is atrocious.

www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/10/17/israel-hamas-war-news-gaza/

The article says both sides are blaming the other for the strike (I assume more info will come out in the future), but the fact that innocent people have been needlessly killed seems not to be in dispute.

[VillainV]

Oct 17, 2023 22:19:30 GMT -5 aurora said:

The murder of hundreds of patients and refugees in/outside the hospital in Gaza is atrocious.

www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/10/17/israel-hamas-war-news-gaza/

The article says both sides are blaming the other for the strike (I assume more info will come out in the future), but the fact that innocent people have been needlessly killed seems not to be in dispute.

The IDF claims to have pretty convincing evidence that it was a failed Hamas rocket (intercepted comms, radar tracks, inventory of their own weapons).

There’s talk about them sharing their intel with us for verification.

(Source: CNN interview last night with a Lt Col from the IDF).

[ohgillian]

I’m so offended by Biden’s phrasing about the hospital - that it was the other “team.” I know he’s folksy, and that’s fine, but this is not an F’ing sport.

(Obviously I’m more offended by the hospital being bombed than the wording; hopefully that doesn’t need stated.)

[fryjack2]

Oct 18, 2023 0:24:52 GMT -5 VillainV said:

Oct 17, 2023 22:19:30 GMT -5 aurora said:

The murder of hundreds of patients and refugees in/outside the hospital in Gaza is atrocious.

www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/10/17/israel-hamas-war-news-gaza/

The article says both sides are blaming the other for the strike (I assume more info will come out in the future), but the fact that innocent people have been needlessly killed seems not to be in dispute.

The IDF claims to have pretty convincing evidence that it was a failed Hamas rocket (intercepted comms, radar tracks, inventory of their own weapons).

There’s talk about them sharing their intel with us for verification.

(Source: CNN interview last night with a Lt Col from the IDF).

And I’m reading that the rockets are believed to have come from Israel---*edited because I couldn't find the source for my other comment anymore.*  

I don’t think anything has been actually verified and I don’t believe the IDF, who were given orders to destroy everything and have been targeting safe sites, or those from groups in Palestine claiming it wasn’t their group.

[sproctopus]

Oct 18, 2023 8:42:22 GMT -5 fryjack2 said:

Oct 18, 2023 0:24:52 GMT -5 VillainV said:

The IDF claims to have pretty convincing evidence that it was a failed Hamas rocket (intercepted comms, radar tracks, inventory of their own weapons).

There’s talk about them sharing their intel with us for verification.

(Source: CNN interview last night with a Lt Col from the IDF).

And I’m reading that the pieces of the rocket have writing on them that matches weapons provided to Israel by the US.

I don’t think anything has been actually verified and I don’t believe the IDF, who were given orders to destroy everything and have been targeting safe sites, or those from groups in Palestine claiming it wasn’t their group.

Israel has a long history of shelling hospitals/safe sites. This behavior is certainly in line with other war crimes they've committed.

[pixy0stix]

Humanitarian aid will finally be let in via Egypt - www.axios.com/2023/10/18/gaza-humanitarian-aid-entry-israel-netanyahu-biden

[k3am]

Oct 18, 2023 8:42:22 GMT -5 fryjack2 said:

Oct 18, 2023 0:24:52 GMT -5 VillainV said:

The IDF claims to have pretty convincing evidence that it was a failed Hamas rocket (intercepted comms, radar tracks, inventory of their own weapons).

There’s talk about them sharing their intel with us for verification.

(Source: CNN interview last night with a Lt Col from the IDF).

And I’m reading that the pieces of the rocket have writing on them that matches weapons provided to Israel by the US.

I don’t think anything has been actually verified and I don’t believe the IDF, who were given orders to destroy everything and have been targeting safe sites, or those from groups in Palestine claiming it wasn’t their group.

Sources that the pieces of rocket have writing on them that matches weapons provided to Israel by the US?

[goldengirlz]

Oct 18, 2023 9:07:43 GMT -5 sproctopus said:

Oct 18, 2023 8:42:22 GMT -5 fryjack2 said:

And I’m reading that the pieces of the rocket have writing on them that matches weapons provided to Israel by the US.

I don’t think anything has been actually verified and I don’t believe the IDF, who were given orders to destroy everything and have been targeting safe sites, or those from groups in Palestine claiming it wasn’t their group.

Israel has a long history of shelling hospitals/safe sites. This behavior is certainly in line with other war crimes they've committed.

And the more credible side, therefore, is a literal terrorist group.

At the end of the day, though, I don’t even think anyone cares about receipts. No minds will be changed. I’m terrified that this could lead to other Arab countries getting involved (as CNN pundits were speculating), which will then the lead to the U.S. being even more involved.

[sproctopus]

Oct 18, 2023 11:36:39 GMT -5 goldengirlz said:

Oct 18, 2023 9:07:43 GMT -5 sproctopus said:

Israel has a long history of shelling hospitals/safe sites. This behavior is certainly in line with other war crimes they've committed.

And the more credible side, therefore, is a literal terrorist group.

At the end of the day, though, I don’t even think anyone cares about receipts. No minds will be changed. I’m terrified that this could lead to other Arab countries getting involved (as CNN pundits were speculating), which will then the lead to the U.S. being even more involved.

The digital spokesperson for the IDF tweeted that Israel was behind that rocket. And then deleted it.

Palestinians are a credible source. They are not terrorists.

[goldengirlz]

Oct 18, 2023 11:42:42 GMT -5 sproctopus said:

Oct 18, 2023 11:36:39 GMT -5 goldengirlz said:

And the more credible side, therefore, is a literal terrorist group.

At the end of the day, though, I don’t even think anyone cares about receipts. No minds will be changed. I’m terrified that this could lead to other Arab countries getting involved (as CNN pundits were speculating), which will then the lead to the U.S. being even more involved.

The digital spokesperson for the IDF tweeted that Israel was behind that rocket. And then deleted it.

Palestinians are a credible source. They are not terrorists.

I said terrorists because I meant terrorists. Hamas is in control of the weapons in Gaza. If I had meant the Palestinian people, I would have said that.

Also, we JUST established that a Tweet is not a credible source. I’m not saying we should absolve Israel — but come on.

ETA: And I am absolutely horrified by what happened. I join in the condemning of whoever did this.

[sproctopus]

Oct 18, 2023 11:49:11 GMT -5 goldengirlz said:

Oct 18, 2023 11:42:42 GMT -5 sproctopus said:

The digital spokesperson for the IDF tweeted that Israel was behind that rocket. And then deleted it.

Palestinians are a credible source. They are not terrorists.

I said terrorists because I meant terrorists. Hamas is in control of the weapons in Gaza. If I had meant the Palestinian people, I would have said that.

The Palestinian people are the side/source saying Israel sent that rocket into the hospital.

And maybe some people don't care about receipts, but they have done this before and past behavior often predicts future behaviors.

The Israeli government has before and continues now to commit war crimes.

[fryjack2]

Oct 18, 2023 10:56:38 GMT -5 k3am said:

Oct 18, 2023 8:42:22 GMT -5 fryjack2 said:

And I’m reading that the pieces of the rocket have writing on them that matches weapons provided to Israel by the US.

I don’t think anything has been actually verified and I don’t believe the IDF, who were given orders to destroy everything and have been targeting safe sites, or those from groups in Palestine claiming it wasn’t their group.

Sources that the pieces of rocket have writing on them that matches weapons provided to Israel by the US?

Yes.  I read that in one of the many articles I have read in the last 24 hours. I'll delete that part as I search for it since I am not seeing that anymore, but here's one from the NYT and APR ( I know the NYT can be biased but the APR is ok, I think?  I also don't know the rules about linking, but I pay for articles and I think you have to to read these) that says that the group Israel is blaming also is claiming it has evidence ( video surveillance, warnings to the hospital for Israel, etc.) that points to it be a missile from Israel forces. 

www.nytimes.com/2023/10/18/world/middleeast/gaza-hospital-israel-hamas-explained.html

apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-gaza-hamas-war-biden-rafah-e062825a375d9eb62e95509cab95b80c

My point was that no one has clear proof of who is responsible and that believing one side over the other should maybe be paused. 

[goldengirlz]

Oct 18, 2023 11:53:43 GMT -5 sproctopus said:

Oct 18, 2023 11:49:11 GMT -5 goldengirlz said:

I said terrorists because I meant terrorists. Hamas is in control of the weapons in Gaza. If I had meant the Palestinian people, I would have said that.

The Palestinian people are the side/source saying Israel sent that rocket into the hospital.

And maybe some people don't care about receipts, but they have done this before and past behavior often predicts future behaviors.

The Israeli government has before and continues now to commit war crimes.

Exactly, we agree. People (like you) don’t care about receipts, because past history is enough to indict.

Which, okay, fine. There’s enough to blame Israel for even without this tragedy. If a deleted tweet is enough for you to go on, no evidence will change your mind. So why bother engaging further?

[karinothing]

The US said they have intelligence that says the rocket did not come from Israel. I guess one has to determine for themselves whether US intelligence or the US itself is credible on this subject.

www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/us-currently-assesses-that-israel-is-not-responsible-for-gaza-hospital-blast/ar-AA1irCr8

www.wsj.com/livecoverage/israel-hamas-war-biden/card/u-s-signals-intelligence-shows-gaza-militants-behind-hospital-blast-VwW5ysaxHfggbrnHgY0e

[pixy0stix]

Oct 18, 2023 11:42:42 GMT -5 sproctopus said:

Oct 18, 2023 11:36:39 GMT -5 goldengirlz said:

And the more credible side, therefore, is a literal terrorist group.

At the end of the day, though, I don’t even think anyone cares about receipts. No minds will be changed. I’m terrified that this could lead to other Arab countries getting involved (as CNN pundits were speculating), which will then the lead to the U.S. being even more involved.

The digital spokesperson for the IDF tweeted that Israel was behind that rocket. And then deleted it.

Palestinians are a credible source. They are not terrorists.

Was it the real IDF account or one that is pretending to be real?

[fryjack2]

To be frank, we also have read, in the NYT article someone posted days ago, that the US had intelligence that something was brewing and a potential attack was going to happen and did not act.

The US has not, and is not acting in the interest of anyone but itself.

To me, it doesn't matter where it came from. Whoever launched it contributed to horrific tragedy.

And as much as we say tweets can't be verified, neither Netanyahu or his people are saying that the one he posted about children of darkness was not him. So sometimes, I think tweets do count.

[sproctopus]

Oct 18, 2023 12:03:14 GMT -5 goldengirlz said:

Oct 18, 2023 11:53:43 GMT -5 sproctopus said:

The Palestinian people are the side/source saying Israel sent that rocket into the hospital.

And maybe some people don't care about receipts, but they have done this before and past behavior often predicts future behaviors.

The Israeli government has before and continues now to commit war crimes.

Exactly, we agree. People (like you) don’t care about receipts, because past history is enough to indict.

Which, okay, fine. There’s enough to blame Israel for even without this tragedy. If a deleted tweet is enough for you to go on, no evidence will change your mind. So why bother engaging further?

I am not basing my belief on one tweet. I am also not a person unwilling to change my mind in the face of evidence. Believing the Palestinian press and officials doesn't mean that I've taken a one-sided, biased, immovable stance. It means I'm watching what the Israeli government is doing to innocent people. And I am knowledgeable about past war crimes. And yes, that shapes my belief/trust system.

[karinothing]

Oct 18, 2023 12:10:22 GMT -5 fryjack2 said:

To be frank, we also have read, in the NYT article someone posted days ago, that the US had intelligence that something was brewing and a potential attack was going to happen and did not act.

The US has not, and is not acting in the interest of anyone but itself.

To me, it doesn't matter where it came from. Whoever launched it contributed to horrific tragedy.

And as much as we say tweets can't be verified, neither Netanyahu or his people are saying that the one he posted about children of darkness was not him. So sometimes, I think tweets do count.

Oh I absolutely agree with you. Obviously we know that the US also has its own agenda here. And yes, it is horrific no matter who fired the rocket. 

[k3am]

The NYT also initially claimed IDF responsible for the hospital bombing. And then retracted because they didn't verify the reports. But that door has been sprung and those headlines won't be unread. So when IDF says that entire villages have been slaughtered, people (in general) say.. show us the receipts. Show us pictures of burned and beheaded babies before we will be believe . But in this case, there was no confirmation necessary and mainstream media and elected officials ran with the headlines.

[AJL]

I know I haven't been anywhere near a level-headed contributor to these threads, so take my input as you choose to: I don't see how "receipts" are going to make any difference. It is just mass slaughter and there is no end in sight. I fear a complete and imminent annihilation of the people in Gaza and eventually in the West Bank. I fear that Netanyahu is not going to be persuaded to pause and consider the ramications of what looks like a scorched-earth attack.

I still stand with Israel. Nothing will change that. I still mourn for the victims of Hamas' campaign of terror. I'm sick over the wanton deaths of so many people who are just trying to live their lives. But I can't find any good that will come out of the what-about-ism, show-me-the-receipts, did-they-or-didn't-they arguing. Many of us with family in Israel such as myself and fryjack (and I'm sorry if I've missed anyone else with family there) are sick with worry all the time. It's exhausting and demoralizing and feels like nothing will ever get better. At least that's how I feel.

[fryjack2]

Oct 18, 2023 12:20:31 GMT -5 k3am said:

The NYT also initially claimed IDF responsible for the hospital bombing. And then retracted because they didn't verify the reports. But that door has been sprung and those headlines won't be unread. So when IDF says that entire villages have been slaughtered, people (in general) say.. show us the receipts. Show us pictures of burned and beheaded babies before we will be believe . But in this case, there was no confirmation necessary and mainstream media and elected officials ran with the headlines.

Sadly, this can be said about any of the things being put out right now I personally didn't see articles asking for proof about the babies, but doesn't mean it isn't happening.  I saw the clips of the president and journalist sharing a lie reposted over and over. and still do. 

I don't need to see pics of any number of dead babies to make their deaths matter and I have seen enough babies and children in the last few days.   But when journalists and presidents share lies like they saw 40 babies beheaded and then backtrack, then yes, the public does start to then pause before believing and does ask for proof. 

[goldengirlz]

Oct 18, 2023 12:39:43 GMT -5 AJL said:

I know I haven't been anywhere near a level-headed contributor to these threads, so take my input as you choose to: I don't see how "receipts" are going to make any difference. It is just mass slaughter and there is no end in sight. I fear a complete and imminent annihilation of the people in Gaza and eventually in the West Bank. I fear that Netanyahu is not going to be persuaded to pause and consider the ramications of what looks like a scorched-earth attack.

I still stand with Israel. Nothing will change that. I still mourn for the victims of Hamas' campaign of terror. I'm sick over the wanton deaths of so many people who are just trying to live their lives. But I can't find any good that will come out of the what-about-ism, show-me-the-receipts, did-they-or-didn't-they arguing. Many of us with family in Israel such as myself and fryjack (and I'm sorry if I've missed anyone else with family there) are sick with worry all the time. It's exhausting and demoralizing and feels like nothing will ever get better. At least that's how I feel.

You’re right. As someone who also has family there, I just think that all of us should be willing to accept that in this quickly-developing situation, where even the media on the ground is getting things wrong, we need to accept some ambiguity. It’s not going to change the big picture but I don’t see the point of digging in and insisting you must be right because XYZ reasons. How do any of us armchair quarterbacks really know what to believe at this point? Sometimes saying something is in dispute IS the fact.

At any rate. I’ve also been wondering about whether it’s worth it to have a third thread focused on American politics or whether that discussion should remain here. Ordinarily I’d say three threads on a single topic is two too many, but I wonder if people want to space to talk about say, Biden’s diplomacy or DeSantis’s PR stunts, without being insensitive to the topic of mass murder in Gaza.

[fryjack2]

I have realized something in the last few days.

I am very lucky, privileged, some word that is escaping me right now that expresses my feelings, that I have lived in places for 90% of my 44 years of life that are diverse and have included representation of people from all religions and ethnicities. I have a Middle Eastern community ( Arab Muslims and Christians and atheists and non Arab Muslims) here as well as many Jewish friends by nature of living here where there is a large presence of Jewish people and Israelis. My area is also very liberal and both communities have been extending support for each other and condemning actions from both Israel and Hamas.

The one time I have not is when I lived in the midwest in college and anyone who wasn't white Christian was not accepted. It was eye opening.

I feel a similar sense of needing people to hear and see what Palestinians have gone through in a similar way that Jewish posters do. I am realizing more than I ever have before that so many people in the world and this message board world are truly ignorant ( I don't mean that in a derogatory way) of what both groups have experienced in history or current history.

In all the fuckery going on, I want people to know that Jews/Israelis and Palestinians do live in harmony in many places, including parts of Israel/Palestine. We are not all enemies.

[aurora]

fryjack2, I absolutely agree that too many people live in ignorance of others because they/we spend too much of our lives in fairly homogenous communities. I think this ignorance contributes to many of society's problems, certainly including some of the responses to this violent conflict.

I wish this were an easier problem to solve. This level of violence is awful.

[rikki]

I live in the city of Chicago in a neighborhood that I thought was one of, if not the most, racially diverse, accepting and welcoming (though not really socioeconomically diverse) . Our block is a melting pot of cultures and races, houses with 2 moms, 2 dads, trans kids and so many other beautiful differences. I know I should not have been surprised to read this post from my lovely neighbor and friend, but it really pointed out to me how the world sees Palestinians and how little I know. After reading it, I went to visit her and she shared on top of this she has asked her principal to not let her son go outside at recess anymore because she is in such fear. The little boy who was murdered was not here in the city, but a not too far suburb, and the same age as her Yusef. I am really working to check my privilege, what I was taught growing up, and to see more than my own personal experience. I challenge us all to try to do the same, especially those of us who grew up in Zionist homes. And, I still love and support Israel in many ways, but I guess your love can also break your heart.

[fryjack2]

rikki. My stomach dropped reading that. My heart goes out to your neighbor. That brings back memories for me and enforces why my brothers are afraid for me and why they are afraid for their children, who have Arabic names and look Middle Eastern and live in the Midwest.

[sofamonkey]

Kamala Harris put out this statement tonight:

“Israelis and Palestinians must have equal measures of security and prosperity. I support the right of the Palestinian people to dignity, freedom, and self-determination. Hamas does not represent these aspirations.”

[fryjack2]

Oct 18, 2023 22:42:32 GMT -5 sofamonkey said:

Kamala Harris put out this statement tonight:

“Israelis and Palestinians must have equal measures of security and prosperity. I support the right of the Palestinian people to dignity, freedom, and self-determination. Hamas does not represent these aspirations.”

Honestly?  Fuck anything she and Biden say.  For the last 10 days they have done nothing to show that is what they really think. Quite the opposite, actually. 

Supporting Dignity.  Freedom.  What a joke.  

Thanks for the $100 million in aid, though.  That will rebuilt, what, one hospital? Feed the people that survive for a week? So generous after helping destroy the majority of the strip and no end in site and murder thousands of innocent people.