France is banning homework

[cookiemdough]

From the WSJ

François Hollande has a bold new plan to tackle social injustice and inequality in France: ban homework. Introducing his proposals for education reform last week at the Sorbonne, the French president declared that work "must be done in the [school] facility rather than in the home if we want to support the children and re-establish equality."

Banning out-of-school assignments would put France on the cutting edge of pedagogical fashion, though it wouldn't be entirely unprecedented. An elementary school in Maryland recently replaced homework with a standing order for 30 minutes a day of after-school reading. A German high school is also test-running a new homework ban, after an earlier reform lengthened the school day and crowded out time for extra-curriculars such as sports or music.

These small-scale experiments aim to give students more freedom to excel on their own initiative. Mr. Hollande wants just the opposite. As Education Minister Vincent Peillon told Le Monde, the state needs to "support all students in their personal work, rather than abandon them to their private resources, including financial, as is too often the case today." The problem, in other words, isn't with homework per se. It's that some homes are more conducive to homework than others.

Here we begin to wonder: Are the French losing their mind? Fortunately not. More than two-thirds of the country would oppose the ban, according to an Ifop poll, so there's hope that even in the land of égalité there's some recognition that state power cannot equalize everything. It's also reassuring to know that a majority of French adults believe there's something to be said for instructing children in the need for personal initiative and responsibility, regardless of excuses or circumstances.

Mr. Hollande, however, remains out of step. At the Sorbonne, he stressed that school is where "the child becomes the citizen of the future." Perhaps his ideas about homework say something about the kind of citizens of the future he wishes to see.

[Deleted]

This is just whacked... he seems to be trying to destroy france as quickly as possible. It is already experience a massive brain and capital drain under his presidency

[IIOY]

septimus and copz (RIP) would love this.

As someone who had unspeakably large amounts of homework in high school, I am not a huge fan of homework and have tended to side with the no-homework crowd. Now that I have two children in school, I do see the benefit - at least at this age - of a very small amount of homework each evening. My DD has it, and lets me know what she's doing, which in turn allows me to reinforce it at home, and I can work with her on how to approach learning with the right attitude. My DS gets no homework, and I often find myself wishing he had just a tiny amount, if for no other reason than to confirm that he is lying when he tells me that all he did for 7 hours was art class and recess.

The flip side to all of this is that my kids tend to learn far better at school than from anything we do at home, and it's tough to get young, rambunctious children to sit down at 4pm to do a worksheet. They want to play, and they should.

[IIOY]

Wait - septimus, you don't support a homework ban? I'm surprised.

I do agree that Hollande is embracing a lot of odd and counterintuitive policies in general. I read an article the other day discussing how his higher-tax plan is driving investment out of France.

[Deleted]

Oct 17, 2012 8:00:22 GMT -5 IIOY said:

Wait - septimus, you don't support a homework ban? I'm surprised.

I do agree that Hollande is embracing a lot of odd and counterintuitive policies in general. I read an article the other day discussing how his higher-tax plan is driving investment out of France.

I do. I'm very pro Alfie Kohn no-homework but mostly because I want the time for my kids to explore their own interests. For example DS1 will spend all afternoon stomping through the creek and woods looking for bugs to observe and then he comes home and reads his various field guides. That is excellent learning that will never take place inside school.

I also don't like the fights/power struggle over homework.

Hollande isn't against homework because he wants kids to explore on their own. He is against it because some kids won't so therefor none should

[IIOY]

Oct 17, 2012 8:03:05 GMT -5 @septimus said:

Hollande isn't against homework because he wants kids to explore on their own. He is against it because some kids won't so therefor none should

Well, he is a Socialist.

[joenali]

Ughhh, I was just having this conversation with a co-worker. I have recieved emails already about homework "it's too hard" or "it's too easy". Well, shit people they are your kids if you think they need more at home than give them more at home. If you think they need less than have them do less. I am in the no homework camp, especially for primary aged kids. ANd really, why do we ask them to do MORE work after they have been doing work ALL DAY long??

ETA: I also agree that there are many children who go home and have no support for homework, while others have all the support in the world. How is that equitable??

[heightsyankee]

Oct 17, 2012 7:57:14 GMT -5 IIOY said:

septimus and copz (RIP) would love this.

Wait- what does this mean?

[IIOY]

Oct 17, 2012 8:12:02 GMT -5 joenali said:

I am in the no homework camp, especially for primary aged kids.

I can get on board with this so long as the teacher communicates with the parents about what is being taught, even just in general terms. For example, my DD's teacher posts a lesson plan each week on the website, which is perfect. Unless I regularly email my DS's teacher for updates, I honestly have no clue what they are working on and therefore have no way of deciding whether I need to provide my own "homework."

[joenali]

Oct 17, 2012 8:26:14 GMT -5 IIOY said:

Oct 17, 2012 8:12:02 GMT -5 joenali said:

I am in the no homework camp, especially for primary aged kids.

I can get on board with this so long as the teacher communicates with the parents about what is being taught, even just in general terms. For example, my DD's teacher posts a lesson plan each week on the website, which is perfect. Unless I regularly email my DS's teacher for updates, I honestly have no clue what they are working on and therefore have no way of deciding whether I need to provide my own "homework."

I do a weekly newsletter. Really, if anything read with your kid and spend time with them. That is important!!!

[heightsyankee]

Muahhhhhahahahaha It's all part of Maria Montessori's plan to take over the world with armies of little Montessori Mafia children! Haaaaahahahahaha! Preeetty sneaky since she's been dead for 50 years!

But, yeah, I support no homework.

www.centerforpubliceducation.org/Main-Menu/Instruction/What-research-says-about-the-value-of-homework-At-a-glance

[marie427]

Lame. Maybe it's because I'm not a parent but I don't see the big deal about homework.

[heightsyankee]

Oct 17, 2012 8:30:15 GMT -5 marie427 said:

Lame. Maybe it's because I'm not a parent but I don't see the big deal about homework.

When kids are small, they learn by doing. They need to be active and exploring. If they do work all day at school and get out of school and have to come home and do more school work, when do they get to enjoy being kids? Additionally, studies don't support the assertion that homework helps small kids do better academically, so what's the point then? It also takes away family time. If a working mom picks her kids up at 5:30, they get home, one parent cooks dinner and the kids are doing 2 hours worth of homework, when do they get to be together and just be a family?

Because you don't have kids, you are probably thinking about the homework you had as a child yourself. It's a lot different these days. Kids bring home worksheets to complete in Pre-K3. A 1st grader can have 1-2 hours/night of homework. When you were 7, you were probably playing outside or watching tv after dinner.

[ringstrue]

This whole thing is very interesting to me. I had a geometry teacher who assigned "homework" but then gave us the last 15 mins. of class to do it. That way the ones who got it could do it and be done, and the ones who didn't could get some one on one time with other students or the teacher to go over things more.

I can see though, that the parent who "like" homework for the bonding aspect will most likely do that anyway when it comes to studying and projects. And I can also see how crazy it is that kids have their whole days filled with what is basically desk work.

I just wonder if its truly a good idea across the board for all ages. Does this apply to highschools? College? What about special projects?

[heightsyankee]

The CW right now is that homework is academically beneficial for older kids, but not for elementary school.

[joenali]

Oct 17, 2012 8:43:00 GMT -5 @littlemoxie said:

Oct 17, 2012 8:34:32 GMT -5 heightsyankee said:

When kids are small, they learn by doing. They need to be active and exploring. If they do work all day at school and get out of school and have to come home and do more school work, when do they get to enjoy being kids? Additionally, studies don't support the assertion that homework helps small kids do better academically, so what's the point then? It also takes away family time. If a working mom picks her kids up at 5:30, they get home, one parent cooks dinner and the kids are doing 2 hours worth of homework, when do they get to be together and just be a family?

Because you don't have kids, you are probably thinking about the homework you had as a child yourself. It's a lot different these days. Kids bring home worksheets to complete in Pre-K3. A 1st grader can have 1-2 hours/night of homework. When you were 7, you were probably playing outside or watching tv after dinner.

What I don't get is that even if the mom picks up the kid at 5:30, presumably they weren't working until 5:30 right (the kids, that is)? School ended for me at 3:10 and I stayed in after school daycare until my mom could get me at 6:30. So I played with a bunch of kids for a few hours, then did homework at home or vice versa.

This is the type of deal I'm imagining - they get out around 3 and have 1-2 hours of homework. That still leaves a few hours for messing around, plus all the weekend.

Really??Do you know how much work an elementary kid does every single day? Some kids are at school even earlier than I am because their parents work. A kid's day can be really, really, long. Some get to before school care at 6am and don't leave school until 6pm. Why on earth should they be working more? And to play after 5:30 is not usually an option. You eat dinner, get ready for bed. Bed time is usually are 7:30 or 8.

[heightsyankee]

Oct 17, 2012 8:43:00 GMT -5 @littlemoxie said:

Oct 17, 2012 8:34:32 GMT -5 heightsyankee said:

When kids are small, they learn by doing. They need to be active and exploring. If they do work all day at school and get out of school and have to come home and do more school work, when do they get to enjoy being kids? Additionally, studies don't support the assertion that homework helps small kids do better academically, so what's the point then? It also takes away family time. If a working mom picks her kids up at 5:30, they get home, one parent cooks dinner and the kids are doing 2 hours worth of homework, when do they get to be together and just be a family?

Because you don't have kids, you are probably thinking about the homework you had as a child yourself. It's a lot different these days. Kids bring home worksheets to complete in Pre-K3. A 1st grader can have 1-2 hours/night of homework. When you were 7, you were probably playing outside or watching tv after dinner.

What I don't get is that even if the mom picks up the kid at 5:30, presumably they weren't working until 5:30 right (the kids, that is)? School ended for me at 3:10 and I stayed in after school daycare until my mom could get me at 6:30. So I played with a bunch of kids for a few hours, then did homework at home or vice versa.

This is the type of deal I'm imagining - they get out around 3 and have 1-2 hours of homework. That still leaves a few hours for messing around, plus all the weekend.

Starting in kinder, after school (in public school) seems to be divided between academic work and some play. But the working parents scenario doesn't mean that the kid is doing 12 hours of work a day, but that the parents' time with the children after work is spent doing homework instead of talking to eachother or enjoying eachothers' company. Homework often includes arguing about getting it done or other stress, which really diminishes the quality of time parents get to spend with kids. Sure, some families make it work or even enjoy it (I have friends in this latter group) but with no positive effect on their academic progress, why put familiest through it?

modified for clarity

[IIOY]

Oct 17, 2012 8:34:32 GMT -5 heightsyankee said:

. A 1st grader can have 1-2 hours/night of homework.

Where on earth are first graders doing 1-2 hours of homework each night? I would hope it's a unity horse that that's crazy.

[joenali]

And if you are a parent with a first grader doing 2 hours of homework a night, I would suggest you stop the homework at 10 minutes, not 2 hours.

[decemberwedding07]

But even with children in elementary school, there's at least one thing that needs to be memorized-- multiplication tables. You really need to spend a little time every day going over that until it's second nature. An outright ban on homework would mean that the teachers couldn't tell parents to do this. I think multiplication tables are done in 3rd grade, division in 4th? Someone correct me if I'm misremembering. And is 5th grade considered elementary or middle school? I remember memorizing the periodic table in the 5th grade, and that really does require some work at home.

All that's to say that even in elementary school, I don't think an outright ban makes sense. Maybe a general guideline to not give homework just for the sake of giving homework? Although now that I'm thinking about it, all of my homework assignments in elementary school that didn't involve memorization, like my writing assignments, helped me to further practice and develop my handwriting skills, so that by the time I got to the 5th grade, I could write quickly enough to take notes well. I guess the more I think about this, the more I'm pro homework.

But yeah, the idea that it should be banned for everyone because some won't do it is just ridiculous. I'm not even sure if he's saying that the ones who don't do it because they lack support get lower grades and that's not fair, or the ones who don't do it don't wind up as knowledgeable as the ones who do it, and that's not fair. If it's the former, then I will listen to what he has to say. If it's the latter, then I have to wonder WTF is wrong with this guy if he thinks that instead of trying to figure out how to raise up the kids who are falling behind from lack of support, he should just pull down the kids who are doing well to the level of the kids who are falling behind.

[joenali]

Oct 17, 2012 8:54:49 GMT -5 decemberwedding07 said:

But even with children in elementary school, there's at least one thing that needs to be memorized-- multiplication tables. You really need to spend a little time every day going over that until it's second nature. An outright ban on homework would mean that the teachers couldn't tell parents to do this. I think multiplication tables are done in 3rd grade, division in 4th? Someone correct me if I'm misremembering. And is 5th grade considered elementary or middle school? I remember memorizing the periodic table in the 5th grade, and that really does require some work at home.

All that's to say that even in elementary school, I don't think an outright ban makes sense. Maybe a general guideline to not give homework just for the sake of giving homework? Although now that I'm thinking about it, all of my homework assignments in elementary school that didn't involve memorization, like my writing assignments, helped me to further practice and develop my handwriting skills, so that by the time I got to the 5th grade, I could write quickly enough to take notes well. I guess the more I think about this, the more I'm pro homework.

But yeah, the idea that it should be banned for everyone because some won't do it is just ridiculous. I'm not even sure if he's saying that the ones who don't do it because they lack support get lower grades and that's not fair, or the ones who don't do it don't wind up as knowledgeable as the ones who do it, and that's not fair. If it's the former, then I will listen to what he has to say. If it's the latter, then I have to wonder WTF is wrong with this guy if he thinks that instead of trying to figure out how to raise up the kids who are falling behind from lack of support, he should just pull down the kids who are doing well to the level of the kids who are falling behind.

RIght. It sounds like you had support at home with homework. Many kids don't.

[Deleted]

I do know that the latch key program in my school district has the kids do their homework while they are there, so when mom or dad pick up their child at 4:30, 5:30, etc., presumably the homework is done. But I do agree that over 1 hour of homework for an elementary school child is excessive.

[Deleted]

ONe of the biggest arguments against homework is the effect it has on homelife.

I was complaining to DH about having 3 hours of homework a night. No it doesn't take my kids 3 hours to do homework, but start to finish I spend about 3 hours a night on homework or arguing about homework. That's not the relationship I want with my kids. Take reading for example: I have 3 kids. Each one I supposed to read with for 30 minutes (they are all early elementary age). What my 2nd grader read is different from my first grader, etc. While I'm reading with 1 I can't pay attention to the others. There's also the time spent herding the cats to do their actual homework and reading.

[ttt]

Oct 17, 2012 8:23:01 GMT -5 heightsyankee said:

Oct 17, 2012 7:57:14 GMT -5 IIOY said:

septimus and copz (RIP) would love this.

Wait- what does this mean?

Copz GBCGBCN'd

[ttt]

I went to a Montessori school through elementary school so I never had homework until the 6th grade. It is certainly possible to learn and succeed without homework in elementary school.

[decemberwedding07]

Oct 17, 2012 8:57:17 GMT -5 joenali said:

Oct 17, 2012 8:54:49 GMT -5 decemberwedding07 said:

But even with children in elementary school, there's at least one thing that needs to be memorized-- multiplication tables. You really need to spend a little time every day going over that until it's second nature. An outright ban on homework would mean that the teachers couldn't tell parents to do this. I think multiplication tables are done in 3rd grade, division in 4th? Someone correct me if I'm misremembering. And is 5th grade considered elementary or middle school? I remember memorizing the periodic table in the 5th grade, and that really does require some work at home.

All that's to say that even in elementary school, I don't think an outright ban makes sense. Maybe a general guideline to not give homework just for the sake of giving homework? Although now that I'm thinking about it, all of my homework assignments in elementary school that didn't involve memorization, like my writing assignments, helped me to further practice and develop my handwriting skills, so that by the time I got to the 5th grade, I could write quickly enough to take notes well. I guess the more I think about this, the more I'm pro homework.

But yeah, the idea that it should be banned for everyone because some won't do it is just ridiculous. I'm not even sure if he's saying that the ones who don't do it because they lack support get lower grades and that's not fair, or the ones who don't do it don't wind up as knowledgeable as the ones who do it, and that's not fair. If it's the former, then I will listen to what he has to say. If it's the latter, then I have to wonder WTF is wrong with this guy if he thinks that instead of trying to figure out how to raise up the kids who are falling behind from lack of support, he should just pull down the kids who are doing well to the level of the kids who are falling behind.

RIght. It sounds like you had support at home with homework. Many kids don't.

Obviously. Then the answer is to help the children without support somehow. It's certainly not to drag everyone down to failing level so that the new passing is the old failing. That's just pure madness.

[shouldbworkin]

Oct 17, 2012 8:28:26 GMT -5 joenali said:

Oct 17, 2012 8:26:14 GMT -5 IIOY said:

I can get on board with this so long as the teacher communicates with the parents about what is being taught, even just in general terms. For example, my DD's teacher posts a lesson plan each week on the website, which is perfect. Unless I regularly email my DS's teacher for updates, I honestly have no clue what they are working on and therefore have no way of deciding whether I need to provide my own "homework."

I do a weekly newsletter. Really, if anything read with your kid and spend time with them. That is important!!!

This I agree with. And, possibly sending home some fun activities to do to reinforce what they've learned in class. I am not creative enough to think about playing top it (war) or counting top it with my KGer and 2nd grader on my own without the suggestion from their teachers. I think doing things like that and reading 20 mins a day go a looooong way.

[heightsyankee]

Oct 17, 2012 10:33:23 GMT -5 decemberwedding07 said:

Oct 17, 2012 8:57:17 GMT -5 joenali said:

RIght. It sounds like you had support at home with homework. Many kids don't.

Obviously. Then the answer is to help the children without support somehow. It's certainly not to drag everyone down to failing level so that the new passing is the old failing. That's just pure madness.

But in the sources I linked above, results show that the homework pre HS has no tangible positive effect on the kids' academic performance, so doing away with it is a zero sum game for academics and win for families.

[laurenpetro]

grace gets hit with a LOT of work. not just class homework.

she's having a hard time reading so she's in their reading program. so she gets pulled out of her regular class for a period to work on reading. then she brings reading home with her. then she has to make up the classwork she didn't do in her class because she was in the reading program. so ironically, the kids who are having a hard time keeping up with their peers are actually getting more work to do which just frusturates the shit out of her which is leading to more pushback on getting the homework done.

on top of that, she's in aftercare. she does "do" her homework but they don't go over it. she may write 6 sentences but they're never right and they always require at least 20 minutes of correction. we don't get home until after 6 and her bedtime is at 8 and we have to squeeze in making/eating dinner in there somehow.

i'm not saying no homework is the answer. this is just a much-needed vent. so to the OP, i say Thank You.

(FWIW, she's finally clicking with the reading thing. yay!)

[eclaires]

The reasoning seems kind of bizarre to me (for France), but overall, I'm glad Jackson doesn't have homework in K. I love his teacher. She's amazing with those kids and they are learning so much. She sends home a newsletter each week, and a little report on what the kids are doing/what is good/what needs improvement. So we read 30 minutes every night and we talk about what he is learning/doing in school. And we watch letter people vidoes, because he is obsessed.

In general, I think homework kind of sucks for kids not in high school/college/etc. School days are long and they need time for other things and to be kids. And to learn in a non-school environment because a lot of kids learn better outside of the traditional school model.