Post by wrathofkuus on Oct 19, 2012 14:27:42 GMT -5
Do you demand that, in order for you to believe in or follow a deity, she has to be willing to work with some sort of empirical thought? Like, maybe you might set up a series of parameters in a semi-controlled experiment, and determine that while one outcome might be evidence for a god, other outcomes will be sort of null, like they could be explained by either no god or god doesn't feel like bothering with your experiment?
I know a lot of people just believe. I'm wondering if anyone ever makes their god meet them halfway.
Post by wrathofkuus on Oct 19, 2012 14:29:46 GMT -5
It isn't the same question at all. The other question is about morality and how it relates to religion. This one is about whether or not you're a deist, and why, with nothing regarding morality at all.
You're not supposed to "test" god. I'm pretty sure you can get in trouble for doing that. But I have gotten down on my hands and knees and begged him for something and he came through. So we're good.
Couldn't this have been put into the other post since you're asking the same question in a slightly different way?
.....why does it matter where it's at?
Because I've always been slightly annoyed by spin-offs that could be clumped into one post. Why clutter the board when this is just a natural progression of the other post. Instead, she's hoping to gain more traction by putting it out again since she's not getting the response she wants in the other thread.
Because I've always been slightly annoyed by spin-offs that could be clumped into one post. Why clutter the board when this is just a natural progression of the other post. Instead, she's hoping to gain more traction by putting it out again since she's not getting the response she wants in the other thread.
....um, I think you are really reading into the intent here.
mmmm... no, I think not. But isn't this what we're debating? People's understanding of an issue based upon their personal experiences and beliefs? There's no right or wrong, there just is.
Because I've always been slightly annoyed by spin-offs that could be clumped into one post. Why clutter the board when this is just a natural progression of the other post. Instead, she's hoping to gain more traction by putting it out again since she's not getting the response she wants in the other thread.
I'm getting exactly the answers I was looking for, with the exception of soozy, in the other thread, based on the topic of that thread.
I don't know what annoys me more about your response, that you apparently don't understand the difference between the two topics, that you are incensed by two threads on related topics on a board that is all about discussing related topics, or that you would respond to the existence of a thread that annoys you by something other than just not goddamn opening it.
I tend to be pretty nerdy in my theological beliefs - but I have no idea what you are asking here.
Blind faith vs. evidence-based faith.
But what the hell kind of experiment could you come up with that couldn't also have the results explained away by just saying that God didn't want to play? What would be the point?
I'm not a believer in any organized religion - but I do believe that the existance of a higher power is totally plausible. the problem is that a being that exists in such a state that they'd be worthy of being called a deity (as opposed to say...an alien with psionic abilities) is completely capable of evading any sort of detection that I could come up with at my level of awareness. They exist on a plane I cannot fully comprehend...but I think I'm going to trap them with some silly experiment? Right. If I can prove they exist with some thought experiment without assuming their patient cooperation, then they don't fit my concept of diety.
or that you would respond to the existence of a thread that annoys you by something other than just not goddamn opening it.
Did you just tell me to not open and respond to a thread if it annoys me? bwahahaha!
:drink: to you Kuus.
Anyway, there are passages in the Bible that specifically talk about not testing God. Possibly because nothing will happen and you will lose your grip on what you believe. Personally, I think we're all tested, every day on what we believe, and it's good for us. For you, it's the fact that God is constantly shoved in your face, and you struggle to understand why people believe in a fairy tale.
For me, it's being lumped into a category of folks that are under the same umbrella as me, but don't necessarily have the same view points.
That's where the trial of faith starts and ends, in the constant bombardment of human questioning. There is no need to put other strict guidelines on faith. It's happening constantly as it is.
But what the hell kind of experiment could you come up with that couldn't also have the results explained away by just saying that God didn't want to play? What would be the point?
I'm not a believer in any organized religion - but I do believe that the existance of a higher power is totally plausible. the problem is that a being that exists in such a state that they'd be worthy of being called a deity (as opposed to say...an alien with psionic abilities) is completely capable of evading any sort of detection that I could come up with at my level of awareness. They exist on a plane I cannot fully comprehend...but I think I'm going to trap them with some silly experiment? Right. If I can prove they exist with some thought experiment without assuming their patient cooperation, then they don't fit my concept of diety.
True. But a psionic alien who played along would make things a lot easier, no? Is it just assumed that a god would refuse to play along? What if she didn't?
Anyway, there are passages in the Bible that specifically talk about not testing God. Possibly because nothing will happen and you will lose your grip on what you believe. Personally, I think we're all tested, every day on what we believe, and it's good for us. For you, it's the fact that God is constantly shoved in your face, and you struggle to understand why people believe in a fairy tale.
I must have been the worst Catholic ever, because I swear, I never encountered any of these passages in school. Do all religions have similar sacred book passages? Are there any religions where the god is okay with providing some kind of evidence?
I'm not sure I'd call it testing but I do view it as some sort of fruit of the spirit test. If believing in God doesn't improve my life by some measure, then why exactly should I? If it doesn't bring forth better in me then why would I choose this God, this faith above others?
I'm not saying God makes me a good person. But I do believe that like any good relationship, I should look at the products of that relationship to determine if it's a good match for me.
Something like dating. A man doesn't validate me. But for sure, I'm looking for a man who brings out better in me, kwim?
I begged God to show me evidence of his existence once in a very low moment. I actually got something back that was quite personal and stunning, and did seem to me at the time to be proof.
But then as the years passed that moment faded. I lost my faith again. I miss the person who could just believe, who believed in goodness and rightness in the universe despite all evidence to the contrary.
But what the hell kind of experiment could you come up with that couldn't also have the results explained away by just saying that God didn't want to play? What would be the point?
I'm not a believer in any organized religion - but I do believe that the existence of a higher power is totally plausible. the problem is that a being that exists in such a state that they'd be worthy of being called a deity (as opposed to say...an alien with psionic abilities) is completely capable of evading any sort of detection that I could come up with at my level of awareness. They exist on a plane I cannot fully comprehend...but I think I'm going to trap them with some silly experiment? Right. If I can prove they exist with some thought experiment without assuming their patient cooperation, then they don't fit my concept of diety.
True. But a psionic alien who played along would make things a lot easier, no? Is it just assumed that a god would refuse to play along? What if she didn't?
I think on a personal level a lot of people believe that god has proved his/her presence on many occasions. See: Miracles, answered prayers, being moved by the holy spirit. Etc. It's entirely possible that I could come up with some experiment to prove the existence of a deity to myself, and for whatever reason - a deity decides to play along. So I get my proof. Maybe he/she/it wanted me to have it. Maybe it serves some purpose of theirs. I dunno. But a lack of a miracle, lack of answered prayer, lack of being moved at that specific moment, or lack of evidence in whatever experiment I've devised prove absolutely nothing about the existence of god - since the obvious answer on the flip side would be that he/she chose NOT to play along in that case, again for reasons beyond my comprehension.
This goes back to something I brought up in a thread a couple of weeks ago about god's reasons. They are by their nature incomprehensible to me. If I could have a good sit down with a deity and totally get everything they do and all their thought processes and why they do things - well then...that's not a god. They have thought processes beyond my own. They can see and know things that I will never be able to get because of their very nature. This is one of the defining differences between super powered alien and a god in my book.
I'm sure other people believe differently, but I kinda came around to this belief in a very roundabout way, and it was kind of an odd ah-ah! moment when i realized that i actually totally agree with people like AW who will respond with "gods ways are not our ways" when questioned on the apparent inconsistencies in the bible.
I'm sorry, your sig pic is just....it looks like your daughter is having a Exorcist moment and the baby is all "OMG WHAT IN THE HELL IS WRONG WITH YOU MOM COME GET ME OFF THIS GIRL'S LAP RIGHT NOW".
It's super cute.
Ha! Thanks! She's quite a zany girl. It's actually the baby who has exorcist moments on the daily (I just went through about an hour of it), so it's good that she's amused by her older sister.
You're not supposed to "test" god. I'm pretty sure you can get in trouble for doing that. But I have gotten down on my hands and knees and begged him for something and he came through. So we're good.
I have made promises to God... like if you let X happen to me I will do Y. Sometimes X happens & I follow through. Sometimes it happens & I don't. & sometimes X doesn't happen at all.
No, I don't. Like several others said, my God doesn't like testing. Gidion is a good example in the contrary, but as a general rule no. Sure I would like to, but that is not how it works.
Anyway, there are passages in the Bible that specifically talk about not testing God. Possibly because nothing will happen and you will lose your grip on what you believe. Personally, I think we're all tested, every day on what we believe, and it's good for us. For you, it's the fact that God is constantly shoved in your face, and you struggle to understand why people believe in a fairy tale.
Do you not remember the Gospel where the devil takes Jesus up over the City and tells him to throw himself off so that the angels can catch him? Jesus replied, “ Again it’s written, Don’t test the Lord your God . ” (in which he was referring to Deuteronomy)
I must have been the worst Catholic ever, because I swear, I never encountered any of these passages in school. Do all religions have similar sacred book passages? Are there any religions where the god is okay with providing some kind of evidence?
There have been many times when I have felt comforted by God. Not in a way that is measurable but mostly when I need to settle my heart or my mind and I can feel the spirit of calm with me. This has been so helpful for me over the past several months with my Dad's illness. I don't pray for a cure but I pray for peace and strength for all of us. It's a feeling of connectedness for me.
I don't expect God to meet me halfway or make demands but I do pray for what (strength, confidence, wisdom) will help me handle certain challenges/situations.
To me, one's relationship with God is very much like a parent with a 2 year oldchild. As a parent, you are in charge, you do not explain your reasoning to a 2 year old, you don't let a 2 year old dictate what's going to be done. Your attitude is kind of, "I created your ass and I'll make the rules around here." You love that child with all your heart, but you don't have to prove anything to them. The older I get, the more I become afraid of what's on the other side of this life. Even though I've struggled with religion, I've never struggled with the idea of God. To think of testing God is kind of a scary place for my mind to go.
Post by hopecounts on Oct 19, 2012 21:05:05 GMT -5
because faith is based on belief without needing proof. And no of course God isn't a huckster, he gives you the freedom of choice in believing or not but if you believe you do it without requiring proof. though to me he shows his prescence in my life in small ways without my asking.
because faith is based on belief without needing proof. And no of course God isn't a huckster, he gives you the freedom of choice in believing or not but if you believe you do it without requiring proof. though to me he shows his prescence in my life in small ways without my asking.
Yeah, so, that's basically how fraudsters all do it.
FWIW, I believe in God but have objective reasons for doing so and am a bit taken aback that you think true belief requires an absence of proof. Would you believe less in God if you personally witnessed the resurrection?
Faith by definition is assuming there is something more to a situation than what you have evidence for. Even non-spiritual people practice a *faith* that certain things will turn out a certain way even though the odds might be against them.
Faith is certainly hard - its hard to admit we don't have all the answers nor can we assume that we will find and know them in any sort of reasonable timeframe. But having a wavering faith is really normal and we shouldn't beat ourselves up for our dips into pessimism.
I've found "strong faith" to be a bit of an oxymoron. Faith is such a surrender - and admittance of not having that control or understanding of a situation we really would like to have some sort of insight on. We have no choice to relinquish our grasp on that knowledge - at least for the time being.